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Thread: Napoleon in Russia 1812: how many of the Grande Armee actually died?

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    Default Napoleon in Russia 1812: how many of the Grande Armee actually died?

    Napoleon's retreat from Moscow during the winter of 1812 is one of the great military disasters of history. According to the popular legend only about 22,000 of Napoleon's men survived the Russian campaign (out of 600,000).

    The harrowing march saw the Grande Armee reduced to starvation as many of the men died from cold and hunger. The ferocious Russian winter covered the land in snow and ice; no food could be found along the route, the horses perished, much of the artillery had to be abandoned, and many units disintegrated as men deserted. Russian partisans kept up constant pressure on the demoralised French army. By the time the army reached the river Berezina at the end of November, the French had less than 40,000 men left, and many of these were killed during the crossing.

    However, some sources say that no more than 380,000 soldiers were killed. Others have argued that the destruction of the Dutch contingent of the Grande Armée was not a result of death of most of its members. Rather its various units disintegrated and the troops scattered. Later many of these personnel were collected and reorganised into the new Dutch army. How many men from the Grande Armee actually died? Could it be that the figure of 478,000 men 'killed' is actually exaggerated?


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    Default Re: Napoleon in Russia 1812: how many of the Grande Armee actually died?

    Hard to say for sure, but my guess is its not that badly exaggerated. Once attrition rates get bad enough, troops do tend to start deserting in great numbers. That being said, in conditions such as those of Napoleon's retreat, most deserters would have simply frozen/starved to death by themselves as opposed to freezing or starving to death in the company of the rest of the army.
    Its not like deserters had too many options as freebooters in the middle of a hostile Russia during winter, other then maybe banditry, and even that's pretty dodgy, as angry locals and Cossacks who know the local terrain a whole lot better would be hunting them down the whole time.
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    Default Re: Napoleon in Russia 1812: how many of the Grande Armee actually died?

    You forgot the severe blow that the Grande Armiee took before it even Reached Russia! Roughly 80,000 men died of Typus within the first month while marching through Poland. That's a pretty huge when you consider that Napolean had less than 80,000 men at the battle of Waterloo.

    It is also estimated that over the entire course of the expedition over 200,000 died from the disease which seemed to continously plague the French no matter where they went!



    http://www.slate.com/articles/health..._powerful.html

    http://entomology.montana.edu/historybug/napoleon/typhus_russia.htm

    Last edited by IrishBlood; December 09, 2015 at 08:11 AM.

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    Default Re: Napoleon in Russia 1812: how many of the Grande Armee actually died?

    Interesting, thanks for sharing.

    I just have a lot of difficulty accepting such large numbers, it seems implausible somehow. I suppose my scepticism probably comes from recent history books which say that numbers given in history are often vastly over-inflated. We know that around 100,000 Grande Armee soldiers were POWs and later returned to France. We also know that many of the men included in the initial force were never on the march to Moscow because they had been guarding flanks and garrisoning cities in Poland, etc. About 80,000 of these returned to France. Many more stayed in Russia and settled there permanently in various jobs - up to 150,000, according to Russian sources (admittedly this is probably a huge exaggeration - but then again there are documented examples which are well-known). So taken together, as many as 330,000 men survived the campaign. Depending on how many started out, the low estimates (450,000) would indicate that around 120,000 men died.

    Thoughts?

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    Default Re: Napoleon in Russia 1812: how many of the Grande Armee actually died?

    Good get IrishBlood, I'd note the medical website is strong on medicine, less so on history: Napoleon did not concentrate his entire army in Poland in 1812, there were over 180,000 men in Spain and a similar number in Italy and other provinces.

    IIRC the attrition rates were something shocking in pre modern armies. The revolutionary/Napoleonic solution to high attrition rates was to march hard and fast to get to the enemy before the bugs got to you.

    I've seen figures for the Grande Armee and allies for the Russian campaign totalling 650,000. That includes the flanking forces, so 20,000 Prussians under Yorke and 30-40,000 Austrians under Schwarzenburg.

    The central column started with about 400,000 men but they only brought 150,000 to bear at Borodino, and took 30,000 casualties there. Even allowing for garrisons detached that's a ration of over 5:1 attrition to battle losses right there.

    What happened to soldiers lost to attrition? These were guys who fell out because they were killed by guerrillas (a lot of that in Spain), got sick, got lost, ran away etc. Some became marauders I guess, some filtered back to their home countries (there were a lot of Germans impressed into the French Imperial Army at this stage). Given the huge losses even before they made Moscow, I guess there's a good chance a proportion made it back to Germany. "Settled in Russia" does sound a bit doubtful as BigDaddy says, although some may have been reimpressed into Russian service (which was a multinational as the French).

    The nightmare scenario of the Cossacks riding down stragglers happened after Moscow, when the main force was already down to 50% of its strength, so Cossack sabres were not the #1 cause of death.

    That number of 120,000 dead is quite sensible, you could push it up or down with a bit of argument I suppose, but I would guess its definitely in the ballpark. As many would be wounded, sick and unfit for duty, and more again deserters actively evading further service. So at least 400,000 men who walked into Russia were unavailable to the French forces thereafter, if we add in the turncoat Prussians and Austrians.

    The biggest loss for the French forces wasn't manpower, as all powers suffered heavily in that regard and the French commenced 1813 with some substantial reserves available. It was horses.

    The French cavalry was famous for its brilliant performance on the battlefield and its mediocre care of mounts of the battlefield. As the Russian Campaign was the biggest army yet fielded (at least in that era, and probably for all history up to that time) it accumulated an astonishing number of horses, then ran them over some medium to poor foraging terrain, then ran them back over the same pillaged terrain in winter on the way home.

    There's a little known action in the retreat from Moscow at Kaluga I think, where the Russians successfully blocked the French from retreating south through the Ukraine and forced them back through Byelorussia down the road they came up. It's one of the critical battles of history. Had napoleon marched his 100,000 with his 20,000 cavalry through the Ukraine, the mild winter (yes it was mild until quite late in 1812, it was the lack of forage and food that destroyed the Grand Armee not the Russian Winter) woul have allowed a well fed army with an intact core of corps and attached cavalry to fall back into southern Poland.

    IIRC the flanking forces got out with most cavalry intact, but the central column with the cavalry corps, guard cav etc lost pretty much every beast. The few remaining mounts were scraped together into a Legion Sacree of 1000 troopers. At the start of the campaign there was 40,000 cavalry in the four Cavalry Corps alone, attached corps cavalry would amount to another 20,000 at least. Napoleon never replaced the cavalry mounts he lost in Poland and Russia. Cavalry was the arm that turned a battlefield victory into a decisive rout, allowing enemy armies to be bagged and destroyed as fighting forces.

    Napoleon won some delightful tactical battles in 1813 and especially 1814 that amounted to nothing because he lacked the cavalry to exploit them.
    Last edited by Cyclops; December 09, 2015 at 04:06 PM.
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    Default Re: Napoleon in Russia 1812: how many of the Grande Armee actually died?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    The biggest loss for the French forces wasn't manpower, as all powers suffered heavily in that regard and the French commenced 1813 with some substantial reserves available. It was horses.
    Yes, horses.
    Michael Adams, in his "Napoleon and Russia" states that basically all of the 100 000 veteran horses perished in Russia, horses specifically trained for warfare and horses that did not even flinch at the sound of gunfire.

    But also nearly all of the cannons, loads of gunpowder, over half of his best and most experienced lower ranking officers(on whom the execution of his tactics depended on greatly) and also hundreds of thousands of relatively new production and good quality muskets.

    It was a disaster unlike any other until that time.
    I do not know of a single campaign that resulted in such casualties and losses prior to that.


    The Russians also did not fair as well as some presume, about 250-300 000 dead by the time Napoleon left Russia.
    Last edited by +Marius+; December 09, 2015 at 05:03 PM.

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    Default Re: Napoleon in Russia 1812: how many of the Grande Armee actually died?

    A hundred thousand? I had no idea it was that bad, geez that's a demographic disaster. It'd be great to see a breakdown on all the figures for horses (cavalry draught etc) losses and production during the Napoleonic wars. A few random figures pop into my head, I recall the French Royal Army had about 900 stallions at stud in 1789 which the foolish Directory sold off, crippling the army's remount capability. I also recall the Austrians could filed a phenomenal number of cavalry in 1789, about 50,000, so Napoleon's cav was truly epic amount, and those losses represented a whole Empire's worth of horses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marius Marich View Post
    ...
    The Russians also did not fair as well as some presume, about 250-300 000 dead by the time Napoleon left Russia.
    This is an excellent point: Napoleon didn't actually lose a battle in Russia and generally inflicted more losses than he took (30K vs 50K at Borodino for example). The Russians were mauled badly, although I expect as they were falling back onto their supply lines they had less foraging attrition. The army de Tolly came after Napoleon with in 1813 was about 50K from memory, a battered remnant of the 200-300K regulars that stood ready to repulse the invasion.

    This huge loss of numbers put Austria in the box seat. Although they lost battles in 1805 and 1809 there was no Jena-Auestadt, Karl kept the bulk of the army intact. Even in 1812 Schwarzenberg kept the Austrian wing corps out of the bloodbath. The Hapsburg forces actually outnumbered the Romanovs in the field, they were the second largest army in Europe after France throughout the Napoleonic wars. They had a quantity of cavalry and decent artillery. While their elites didn't match the Russian or French Guards they did have a mass army with all types of troops, experienced leadership and probably the best (old fashioned) supply net in Europe.

    When the Grande Armee melted (taking a lot of Russians with it) Francis II was probably licking his chops.
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    Default Re: Napoleon in Russia 1812: how many of the Grande Armee actually died?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    A hundred thousand? I had no idea it was that bad, geez that's a demographic disaster. It'd be great to see a breakdown on all the figures for horses (cavalry draught etc) losses and production during the Napoleonic wars. A few random figures pop into my head, I recall the French Royal Army had about 900 stallions at stud in 1789 which the foolish Directory sold off, crippling the army's remount capability. I also recall the Austrians could filed a phenomenal number of cavalry in 1789, about 50,000, so Napoleon's cav was truly epic amount, and those losses represented a whole Empire's worth of horses.
    Yes, those 100 000 were only the warhorses, Michael Adams states that there were another 100 000 various utility horses(beasts of burden) that were lost.

    Horrendous loss.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    When the Grande Armee melted (taking a lot of Russians with it) Francis II was probably licking his chops.
    Well, everyone was

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    Default Re: Napoleon in Russia 1812: how many of the Grande Armee actually died?

    I recall many guns were spiked (or otherwise disabled) and abandoned, but IIRC France had the capacity (in production, in fortress and naval pieces) to replace most of it within the year. I don't know the le ad time on a draught horse, I suppose training a cavalry horse is at least as long to gain mature strength and obedience.

    This site says it takes 8-10 weeks to train a horse for a vanity regiment in the UK (I'd guess its a bit longer for a Napoleonic battle mount, and longer again for the elite units horses). It says they need to train a young horse from breaking so I guess you can't adapt a riding horse or workhorse to cavalry, you have to start them off young.

    http://www.nam.ac.uk/microsites/war-...port/training/
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    Default Re: Napoleon in Russia 1812: how many of the Grande Armee actually died?

    Napoleon on his comeback tour had to mount his cavalry on rather poor quality hacks.
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    Default Re: Napoleon in Russia 1812: how many of the Grande Armee actually died?

    Yeah, the cavalry that participated in the Russian Expedition was basically eliminated. Well, it is expected, if men starve, then animals probably starve more. The new French army of 1813 essentially lacked any considerable force of cavalry and, as it has already been said, the efficiency of their pursuing tactics was ruined. If the veteran horses had survived, Vandamme may have had a better chance in Kulm, but when the Austrians joined the 6th coalition, the fate of the French had been sealed. No means to win a decisive victory meant that the Allies could spam armies, until the French were exhausted and decimated and eventually get defeated. Supposedly, Napoleon said that he would have won in Waterloo, if Bessières had still been alive. Not sure if he meant the Marshal himself or the Cavalry Guard corps.

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    Default Re: Napoleon in Russia 1812: how many of the Grande Armee actually died?

    Which reminds; I'm told that the French also took along the wrong horse shoes; much like you need special winter tires for trucks, their draft horses needed special hooves that dig into the snow and can pull loads up hills.
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    Default Re: Napoleon in Russia 1812: how many of the Grande Armee actually died?

    Yes, but there are issues with that claim, this article deals with it properly, even stating that the Russians had the exact same issue;

    https://napoleon1812.wordpress.com/2...he-horseshoes/

    I personally don't buy it that much.

    If the entire Russian plane was a giant lake of ice then yes, but I do not think that a couple of shallow rivets on a horse shoe will make much of a difference.

    http://equinefacilitydesign.com/wp-c...oe-Options.jpg

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    Default Re: Napoleon in Russia 1812: how many of the Grande Armee actually died?

    I've always found it interesting that a lot of people think the major impact that the retreat from Moscow had on France was the vast loss in manpower, despite nearly half of Napoleons army coming from other regions of Europe than France. Sure, the loss in manpower was enormous but when compared with something like horses, soldiers are relatively easily replaced and, while not as experienced as the men lost on the retreat from Moscow, Napoleon could and did win battles with them, but lacked the cavalry to exploit these victories or even the horses to ensure he had a proper supply train(which was extremely problematic, even given the tendency of soldiers of the time to loot what they needed from the local countryside), ensuring that Napoleon would stay on the defensive, with his lack of cavalry meaning that the allies could afford to lose occasionally and just retreat and try again, a luxury Napoleon didn't have. Lack of horses did it for the Napoleonic empire.

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    Default Re: Napoleon in Russia 1812: how many of the Grande Armee actually died?

    I believe the greatest loss were the lower ranking officers.

    They were the backbone of the army as they were the ones executing Napoleons talent on the battlefield.

    Most of them had years of experience and over a dozen large scale battles in their CV, replacing them would take years/decades, not just of time, but of successful warfare.

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    Default Re: Napoleon in Russia 1812: how many of the Grande Armee actually died?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marius Marich View Post
    I believe the greatest loss were the lower ranking officers.

    They were the backbone of the army as they were the ones executing Napoleons talent on the battlefield.

    Most of them had years of experience and over a dozen large scale battles in their CV, replacing them would take years/decades, not just of time, but of successful warfare.
    That's consistent with the performance of the French Amy after the 1812 debacle.

    In the 1813 campaign there were some decent performances by the French regulars, the chief surprises came from deserting allies, but all was not well. IIRC corps and divisional artillery had to be detached to the regiments to stiffen morale: previously French lines had stood unsupported by pieces in hellscapes such as Eylau and Wagram but with all the losses in Russia the men's morale needed stiffening and napoleon knew it.

    By 1814 the quality of the rank and file in the French army was noticeably diminished, with lots of young draftees in the ranks. Napoleon had to resort to his Guard corps repeatedly to win or save his desperate retreating battles (some of his best work), but the Allied policy of continuous advance even after a tactical defeat forced him back and ate into his experienced manpower even further.

    In 1815 the problem of morale was critical. While the French army showed loyalty to Napoleon over the flatulent and offensive Bourbons their once unshakeable morale was no longer the stuff of legend. The landwehr heavy Prussians were pummelled back after a stiff fight at Ligny and Wellington's hotchpotch force was given a rap on the knuckles, so it was clear Napoleon's opponents had grave weaknesses he would have exploited cheerfully in the past.

    Coming up against Wellington's allied force at Belle Alliance two unthinkable things happened: French artillery crews taking counter fire abandoned their pieces and fled (the Middle Guard had to supply replacement crews) and then the Middle Guard broke advancing up the hill faced by some extremely ragged British, Dutch and German infantry. To imagine in say 1809 when French gunners duelled the Austrian massed batteries at Wagram, or in 1812 when they rolled their pieces up to the fletches at Borodino that a few years later their successors would flee the battle after coming under some long range retaliation would not have been credible.

    Full credit to Wellington for his choice of position and his superbly balanced defence. He had a fragile force and he kept it in one piece and bled the French attacks without exposing his weaker forces. However the Old Guard would not have broken pushing up that hill, the Old Guard that had swept battlefields clean 'like the head of Medusa" as Napoleon noted after beating Blucher on one occasion, the Old Guard that earlier in the day pushed the leading Prussian division back out of Plancenoit without firing a shot.

    IMHO the Middle guard of 1812 would not have broken either. Their ranks had been emptied on the plains of Russia and the replacements were hardly Guard material.

    French morale was shot by the time they reached Waterloo. The extremely brave and well led forces ranged against him were of extremely patchy quality, with some iron hearted German courage and some steely British professionalism, but a lot of weak, inexperienced or just poor quality units as well. Its proof of the French Army's decline that they fell at this first low hurdle and didn't even survive to face the 400,000 Russians and Austrians massing to obliterate the emperor.
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