NATO seek de-escalation over Turkish shoot down of the Russian jet.

[DimeBagHo]

non combat but still u can call them incursions as an act of entering another's territory or domain.

Which makes it a whole different situation. The Turks were already pissed about the Russians bombing their allies, so it was foolish of them to think that they could fly through Turkish airspace to do it and not provoke a response.

[Fanest]

Any non identified unresponsive vessel heading your own airspace is automatically treated as being hostile. This isn't rocket science.

Its not mate i have seen the same over our airspace and nobody shot that plane down - later it was said that they just forgot that they entered another country airspace thats all. But for Turks it seem this really is a rocket science.

[Kyriakos]

This was a very dumb (and maybe even suicidal in the long-run) move by Erdogan and his group. Arguing like Davu did that Turkey has the right to shoot down any plane entering its airspace for a few seconds is amazing, given turkish planes illegally enter greek air-space on a daily basis. What exactly will happen if some hot-headed pilot here decided to just shoot one of them down? (cause unlike with Erdo, here it would not be the leadership making such a pitiful call/decision).

Anyway, i think this is going to lead to the fall of Erdogan, and very likely covert support for a kurdish state in Turkey by Russia is now on the works.

[Braindead Colonel]

Assad renounced any claim to Hatay back in 2005 as well.

Not that I really care, but do you have any reference to the relevant document where Syria recognizes the current boundaries with Turkey?

Any non identified unresponsive vessel heading your own airspace is automatically treated as being hostile. This isn't rocket science.

"heading your own airspace" ? So Turkey is routinely issuing warnings to aircraft in neighboring sovereign airspace? That doesn't sound very legal, or even sane, and neither is any aircraft flying in foreign airspace required to identify itself to Turkish authorities.

[AnthoniusII]

They're intercepted and escorted out if they're neutral and identified. The Russian jet was not an identified craft for it to be neutral.

Greek - Turkish borders have been set by the treaty of Lausanne (1923). Any further details required can be determined by applying the UN Law of the Sea UNCLOS. Turkey's behavior doesn't annul internationally recognized agreements/treaties. It just solidifies Turkey's reputation as a rogue state.

PS, Turkey's border with Syria at that location is disputed; Syria does not recognize Hatay as been Turkish (Turkey essentially stole it in 1939).

There were DEAD pilots in both sides because Turkey is the bully of its area.
In the last 3 decades Turkish planes violate Greek airspace more than 20 Greek pilots have died and unknown Turkish ones (Turkey rarely publics numbers).
If by every 1o sec of airspace violation Greece and Turkey would shoot each other none of both countries would have Air Forces today.

Pictures of dead Greek pilots because Turkey thinks that can do everything wishes to do!

The following pilot was killed by a Turkish pilot when it crashed his plane on to the greek one to prevent an action of war: Turkey sent a rec Phantom with armed F-16s to rec military bases OVER CRETE. That move according to international law is an act of war! That pilot following NATO's proceedures went bellow Phntom to photo its recon equipment and the Turkish Phntom pilot crashed Greek pilot's canopy with his plane!

Can our Turkish friends answer us this?
If the next days Turkish planes will fly OVER GREEK ISLANDS (invasion) should Greece shot them down too like they did with the russian plane?
List of Turkish planes airspace violations and invasions the last years:


1st line year
2nd line ICAO violatons
3rd line Airspace intrutions and invasions
4th line Greek land and island over flights (act of war).
5th line Dogfights
6th line Turkish armed planes that invaded Greek airspace.

Should Greece follow Turkey's example and start shooting down the airspace violating planes?

[Fanest]

Which makes it a whole different situation. The Turks were already pissed about the Russians bombing their allies, so it was foolish of them to think that they could fly through Turkish airspace to do it and not provoke a response.

That may do it Turkish heads but not on paper. Turkey should already be ashamed for supporting jihadists but downing down a Russian plane for them sounds like a war declaration for me.

[DimeBagHo]

That may do it Turkish heads but not on paper. Turkey should already be ashamed for supporting jihadists but downing down a Russian plane for them sounds like a war declaration for me.

On paper a country can legally shoot at any military aircraft that enters it's airspace without permission. The Russians just misread the usual restraint shown by NATO countries when they thought it would extend to a combat mission.

[AnthoniusII]

On paper a country can legally shoot at any military aircraft that enters it's airspace without permission. The Russians just misread the usual restraint shown by NATO countries when they thought it would extend to a combat mission.

So please read my previus post and tell me..2 NATO states are in war or not???
Such dogfights happen EVERYDAY.'

All it needs will be a pilot with nerves brake down that will push the button!

[Fanest]

On paper a country can legally shoot at any military aircraft that enters it's airspace without permission. The Russians just misread the usual restraint shown by NATO countries when they thought it would extend to a combat mission.

Nope
I will quote this guy again

If an unidentified aircraft has been detected and has entered a sovereign airspace the sovereign country does not shoot it down. For all they know it is a friendly or neutral with a malfunction (and Russia is to be considered neutral in this conflict, with regards to Turkey). Visual identification is required (mark.1 eyeball) so that this does not happen, no BVR. Furthermore, standard procedure is to escort the unwelcome aircraft out of your territory. If the aircraft is unable or unwilling to do so for whatever reason it is escorted to a friendly airbase and allowed/forced to land for capture/assistance and evaluation. Destruction of an unwelcome aircraft is only justifiable once a threat has presented itself, the aircraft is behaving aggressively or the host nation has cause to believe that it will attack.

[Cookiegod]

The Russian jet did probably NOT enter Turkish territory. Why? For once, because of history. Of all the alleged Syrian border incursions that Turkey shot down, every single one of them crashed inside Syria.
Secondly, because we have two sides of this story, and the Turkish one doesn't add up.
It claims to have warned the Russian jet 10 times in 5 minutes, yet the incursion cannot have lasted for more than a few seconds. According to their own story, it lasted 17 seconds, so there was no time to warn the plane whatsoever. From the place of the alleged border incursion to the crash site there's a distance of ~10 km. If you take a look at the footage from the plane, you see it pretty much hit the ground pretty much like a rock.
So even if the alleged incursion had happened, it was shot down over Syrian territory.

But let's entertain the thought that the Russian plane did cross Turkish territory. The moment they entered it they were leaving it through the shortest possible path.
The Su-24 was never presenting a danger to Turkey, and there was no need for them to shoot it down.
They did it anyways, because they wanted to, which leads us essentially to the very same conclusion as when assuming the Russian airplane probably did not violate the airspace: Turkey wanted the confrontation.
Why did they want the confrontation?
For several reasons: Erdogan wants to show strength both inwards to his own voters and to his turkmeni and jihadi proxies active in that region (and knowing that, the Turks knew shooting down the jet the jihadists on the ground would be the death sentence for the Russian pilots).
And most importantly, he is NOT happy about the alliance that is beginning to form, as both Germany, France and the US want better relations with Russia.
This escalation is an opportunity for him. An opportunity he was eager to use by calling in NATO.

You can see how uneasy Hollande, Obama and Stoltenbergs reaction was to it, as they had to show support to Turkey, but not sabotage their undertakings with Russia.


There's one more thing I would like to remind you of: The US and especially Russia have begun bombing the IS oil industry. Where do you think that oil was heading to?
As a matter of fact, both Turkey and Daesh have profited millions and billions from their trafficking. Both sides loose, now that their source of income is finally being targeted.

[AnthoniusII]

So please read my previus post and tell me..2 NATO states are in war or not???
Such dogfights happen EVERYDAY.'

All it needs will be a pilot with nerves brake down that will push the button!

Adding more info!
There was a confirmed shooting down (others still remain "unofficiall).

But Greeks did not executed the Turkish pilot that was shooted down deep in Greek airspace and was carroed in Chios hospital.

His co-pilot never found alive.

[Stario]

ahhh...Putin just gained the Casus Belli on Constantinople. It's about time we took it back from those filthy heretics.

[AnthoniusII]

ahhh...Putin just gained the Casus Belli on Constantinople .

I wouldn't count on it.
To much money is instake.
Also Russian pilots are no match for Turkish ones.
Turkish pilots train them selves against the best air to air pilots of NATO (Greeks) for more than 30 years.
Only Israely pilots are better from Greeks in air to air fights.
Russian pilots for almost 20 years had limmited air to air training because of lack of money and factional airplanes.

[DimeBagHo]

So please read my previus post and tell me..2 NATO states are in war or not???

The fact that Greece and Turkey are military allies goes a long way towards explaining the restraint shown by Greece. Do you think Greece would show the same restraint if Turkey were flying through Greek airspace to bomb another Greek ally?

BTW, a recon flight is not an act of war if there is no actual use of force. This view has not always been accepted by everyone, but it is the common view. Shooting down a recon flight that enters your airspace without permission is also not an act of war because it is not aggression. This view is accepted by everyone because it follows directly from the well established right to defend borders against intrusion.

[Idomeneas]

Greek airspace "violations" are not done over recognized borders. They're done over disputed islands. The airspace violation of the Russian jet was done over a recognized border. Because of that alone it's not a comparable situation.

The real hypocrisy is people's take on YPG vs. Syrian Turkmen Bridgades (STB). Turkey only threatened YPG with an attack in case they crossed the Euphrates. Suddenly people are outcried claiming that Turkey have been actively bombing them all over. Russia bombed STB positions since day one continuously. Not a finger is lifted. That's pure hypocrisy.

First of all there are no disputed islands in international treaties. All the border issues have been cleared long ago. There are disputed islands in the minds of turkish imperialists and they try to create grey zones by defacto presence. If Greece was acting as Turkey did, there would be thousands of wreckages in the Aegean sea.
A great part of the european refugee problem is a byproduct of the turkish effort to inflict economic and social damage to Greece by sending thousands of Muslims. There are not just Syrians or Afghans passing across through Turkey. But there are also north African and Asian immigrants from no war zones using the services of Turkish smugglers. So they gain money and hurt Greece, which is win win for Turkey.

[Idomeneas]

The fact that Greece and Turkey are military allies goes a long way towards explaining the restraint shown by Greece. Do you think Greece would show the same restraint if Turkey were flying through Greek airspace to bomb another Greek ally?

BTW, a recon flight is not an act of war if there is no actual use of force. This view has not always been accepted by everyone, but it is the common view. Shooting down a recon flight that enters your airspace without permission is also not an act of war because it is not aggression. This view is accepted by everyone because it follows directly from the well established right to defend borders against intrusion.

Greece is not restraint by the fact that Turkey is a member of NATO for all this worth. Is restrained by the fact that Greece does not wish war in the area and further more USA doesnt wish war in the area. Even if Turkey wasnt a NATO member, instability in a strategic region as the Balkans and Aegean is a no no. Both sides know this. What Turkey wants is to take advantage of a heated episode, blitz a group of islands unbalancing the status quo in the hope that through the ensuing diplomatic race, will get to keep something out of the whole campaign, Cyprus style. Its no luck that Greece's strategy is purely defensive. Greece doesnt threat Turkish sovereignty and the voices reclaiming lost lands etc are reduced to a small number of weirdos.

[Costin_Razvan]

So Russia's deploying S-400s in Syria.

[Kyriakos]

Regardless of how this actually plays out, Turkey has been (these last 3 years) outed as various epithets which won't lead to good. Eg autocratic, dictatorial, and now 'accomplice of terrorists' and 'trade-partner of Isis'.

Given how Erdo is (ie the type of loon who thinks he is sent to make Turkey great or whatever) it is not unlikely things will be led to collapse in the near future there. Although i personally don't see any military campaign currently. Besides, if it comes to war between Russia and Turkey, it won't be much of a war unless US and some others come into play.

On the positive side, maybe i can have that apartment with a cool view to the Hagia Sophia cathedral in the future? :o (more seriously, though: things are moving ever closer to a very nasty and large war, and only good thing is that Greece won't be part of it this time).

[RubiconDecision]

Latest compilation of the event:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-1...rigger-reality

[Ziltoid]

To me both turkish and russians screwed up here. Turkish by causing this NATO vs Russia crisis, it could have perhaps just used warning shots or whatever instead of actually bringing that jet down. Russians for acting as usual, not respecting other countries borders and provoking, this time combined with attacking turkish proxy allies so it went way beyond the usual line, in that sense Turkey's response is justificable even if overdone and not very wise diplomatically.

So Russia's deploying S-400s in Syria.

So it seems: https://www.rt.com/news/323379-s400-...syria-airbase/

Will be intresting to see if its just gesture or if they will use eventually that S400 capability to deny other factions from flying in certain areas, or even trying to have revenge on turkish planes. Either way something along the lines of gorilla beating its chest was to be expected from Putin as he has to keep up his macho image and face. The whole ISIS bombing so far has been one big show for rest of the world of Russia's military capability, they drop tons of dumb bombs over there, yet still have to just for show also launch bunch of cruise missiles from far away as that makes great intimidating videos while being also good sales pitch.

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/syr...omb-1744082828

Also some comedy relief:

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