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Thread: Muslim woman pushed in front of London Underground train

  1. #101

    Default Re: Muslim woman pushed in front of London Underground train

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithridate View Post
    Aye I do not doubt you, but how does the casualty rates compare? Do you happen to have data on that?
    http://www.economist.com/blogs/graph.../daily-chart-8

    Before Charlie Hebdo, only two Islamist attacks since 2001 caused more than ten deaths - the Madrid Train Bombing and the London Tube and Bus bombings in 2004 and 2005. Obviously this article was written before Paris, which will likely push the Islamists into the lead on death count. The far-right attack in Norway killed more people than the London Tube bombings, which is a surprise even to me.

    On number of attacks, religious affiliation barely registered:



    Arrests makes the volume of the religiously affiliated jump - but still fails to trump the separatists until 2013:

    Last edited by removeduser_487563287433; December 08, 2015 at 01:25 AM.

  2. #102

    Default Re: Muslim woman pushed in front of London Underground train

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    http://www.economist.com/blogs/graph.../daily-chart-8

    Before Charlie Hebdo, only two Islamist attacks since 2001 caused more than ten deaths - the Madrid Train Bombing and the London Tube and Bus bombings in 2004 and 2005. Obviously this article was written before Paris, which will likely push the Islamists into the lead on death count. The far-right attack in Norway killed more people than the London Tube bombings, which is a surprise even to me.
    Judging on that, even before the Islamic acts lead the count ( if we add unknown to non-Muslim which would be very illogical, its close to a tie ). Am I missing something, or do you have another source for your claim of non-muslims trumping the number?

    Because based on that, people out of the roughly 7% muslim population is on pair or likely far worse than everyone else... That too is terribly disproportionate. I suppose most of that is from the middle east and not Europeans though but it is not detract from my point of the proportionality regarding Muslims. You are more likely to die, from Muslims even in Europe when it comes to terrorism.

    Despite how few they are and most of those doing it not being Europeans

    Edit: Interesting, will have to take a more proper look on those graphs and sources later as they seem to mitigate a lot - sleep calls.
    Last edited by Mithridate; December 08, 2015 at 01:42 AM.
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  3. #103

    Default Re: Muslim woman pushed in front of London Underground train

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithridate View Post
    Judging on that, even before the Islamic acts lead the count ( if we add unknown to non-Muslim which would be very illogical, its close to a tie ). Am I missing something, or do you have another source for your claim of non-muslims trumping the number?
    No, and I am not disagreeing that Islamist attacks have high fatalities compared to the others because of the nature of their tactics. But the majority of attacks and perpetrators in the EU are not Islamists... the Islamists just intentionally try to kill as many people as possible. Probably the only-non Islamist example of that is Breivik, and at least the two of them are united in their fascism.

    So we essentially have 4 mass Islamist attacks that caused huge numbers of fatalities (Madrid, London, Hebdo, Paris) versus many hundreds of other attacks that didn't aim to massacre as many people as possible.

  4. #104
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    Default Re: Muslim woman pushed in front of London Underground train

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    No, and I am not disagreeing that Islamist attacks have high fatalities compared to the others because of the nature of their tactics. But the majority of attacks and perpetrators in the EU are not Islamists... the Islamists just intentionally try to kill as many people as possible. Probably the only-non Islamist example of that is Breivik, and at least the two of them are united in their fascism.

    So we essentially have 4 mass Islamist attacks that caused huge numbers of fatalities (Madrid, London, Hebdo, Paris) versus many hundreds of other attacks that didn't aim to massacre as many people as possible.
    So in your opinion the number of attacks are more important than the damage they cause?
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  5. #105

    Default Re: Muslim woman pushed in front of London Underground train

    Quote Originally Posted by StarDreamer View Post
    So in your opinion the number of attacks are more important than the damage they cause?
    No? But you have to look at the data in its entirety to understand the scale and nature of the issue.

  6. #106
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    Default Re: Muslim woman pushed in front of London Underground train

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    No? But you have to look at the data in its entirety to understand the scale and nature of the issue.
    Yes, I think we are. The scale and nature of muslim terrorist attacks are very different from say separtist attacks. Separtists usually don't see killing random bystanders as an objective, they have a specific target in mind(judge, politician or whatever). Which is why their attacks cause few casualties compared to the number of attacks.

    Muslim terrorist cause massive damage to completly random targets. Their only objective being to kill as many as possible.

    To me the number of actual perpetrators are secondary compared to what damage they want to do.
    "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein
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  7. #107

    Default Re: Muslim woman pushed in front of London Underground train

    Yeah you're basically reading the data back to me.

  8. #108

    Default Re: Muslim woman pushed in front of London Underground train

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    Got a source for this? Because in the EU the overwhelming amount of terrorist convictions are related to European separatists - attacks like Paris by Muslim fundamentalists are comparatively rare.
    I've gone through those reports now and I have to say, Spain is zealous with the separatists

    However, religious terrorism is 2x as prevalent in Europe as opposed to separatist ( very sharp decline Spanish sep attacks last few years) , 395 vs 154 ( 200 left, right and non specified ) - talking arrests here.
    Arrests for religiously inspired terrorism continue torepresent the largest proportion of the total arrests in the
    EU. Their number rose from 159 (2012), to 216 (2013), to
    395 (2014). The rise was due to the increased number of
    arrests for terrorist offences related to travelling to conflict
    zones, mainly to Syria. Of the total number of arrestees for
    religiously inspired terrorism, 90% were younger than 40
    years old. The majority of them (44% or 172) were under
    25 years of age, a number almost twice as large as that of the
    22% was related to travellingto conflict zones. Religious terror sounds pretty damn prevalent. ( roughly half of separatists are acquitted, one in ten or less of religious are ).

    Unfortunately, they do not specify religious affiliation in these reports for the stats. But by your other source, it becomes somewhat obvious that the attacks that took place were Islamic. A rather stunning observation for France is that we have 50 separatist attacks yet not a single casualty 2014? ( the single religious attack I suspect, was either the man yelling god is great as he ran over 11 people 0 dead or more likely the stabbing of 3 people and the perp being killed )


    For EU:
    From your sources, I conclude that actual attacks - separatists take the cake by far. However:
    Religious terrorism is seemingly more prevalent than all other forms of terrorism combined
    Religious terrorism is currently the deadliest form of terror by far, even before Hebdo and the latest shootings.

    Used https://www.europol.europa.eu/conten...nd-report-2015 from:
    https://www.europol.europa.eu/latest_publications/37
    Last edited by Mithridate; December 08, 2015 at 01:21 PM.
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  9. #109

    Default Re: Muslim woman pushed in front of London Underground train

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    Got a source for this? Because in the EU the overwhelming amount of terrorist convictions are related to European separatists - attacks like Paris by Muslim fundamentalists are comparatively rare.
    For Spain that is true, but not for the rest of the EU ( France has 33 religious of 188 arrests vs 3 separatist of 40 arrests despite 50 sectarian acts of terrorism vs 1 religious. When doing some number crunching and estimates from Number of convictions and acquittals in 2014 per EU Member State and per type of terrorism, as reported to Eurojust26:

    345 convictions were made, 107 quittance made.
    Of those, we can be rather sure of:
    70-80 Religious verdicts
    120 Sectarian verdicts
    10 left wing
    30 Unknown

    115 Unknown from the UK, perhaps you have some more sources for the UK?

    So I hardly think it fair to call them overwhelmingly sectarian, much as I cannot prove how big the majority of religious convictions are Muslim. Considering you think a lot of sectarian verdicts are likely religious, it only weakens your position. When you say attacks however, you are entirely correct:

    They are rare, but religious terrorism is certainly not.

    I am rather amazed that sectarian terrorists attacks are far, far more common - arrests for religious terrorism is far more common as well as the conviction rate being extremely high comparatively. ( For France, its religious terrorism arrest almost 5x more common and 33/188 17,5% go to court vs 3/40 7,5% separatist. Of those, 2 were acquitted.
    Last edited by Mithridate; December 08, 2015 at 02:10 PM. Reason: clarification
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  10. #110

    Default Re: Muslim woman pushed in front of London Underground train

    Are you sure? France, the UK and Spain make up most the separatist attacks - Corsicans, Northern Irish, Basque respectively, so I'd be surprised if France had more religious incidents (we've established we need to be explicit on attacks/convictions/fatalities) than separatists. What's the date range you're looking at?

    Anyway, I feel we're in agreement in spirit here.

    What we should point out, on topic, is that recent events and subsequent Islamophobia has stoked anti-Muslim reprisals, and we need to encourage leadership that (unlike say Trump) is wiling to point out this is a counter-productive and unethical response.

  11. #111

    Default Re: Muslim woman pushed in front of London Underground train

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    Are you sure? France, the UK and Spain make up most the separatist attacks - Corsicans, Northern Irish, Basque respectively, so I'd be surprised if France had more religious incidents (we've established we need to be explicit on attacks/convictions/fatalities) than separatists. What's the date range you're looking at?
    The latest report of your source, 2015 ( so its regarding 2014 ) as stated in me post. As stated, France had 50 separatist acts of terrorism ( seemingly with 0 casualties ) and 1 religious act of terror ( as stated, also seemingly 0, I even speculated in which ones ).

    345 convictions were made, 107 quittance made.
    Of those, we can be rather sure of:
    70-80 Religious verdicts
    120 Sectarian verdicts
    10 left wing
    30 Unknown

    France has 33 religious convictions of 188 arrests vs 3 separatist of 40 arrests
    Was I unclear somewhere about when it was convictions or acts of terror? I tried to be quite clear.
    Could you give me some sources as to UK terrorism by actor as it was not included?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    Anyway, I feel we're in agreement in spirit here.

    What we should point out, on topic, is that recent events and subsequent Islamophobia has stoked anti-Muslim reprisals, and we need to encourage leadership that (unlike say Trump) is wiling to point out this is a counter-productive and unethical response.
    Indeed and agreed.

    I sympathize with some of what Trump say though and think some is twisted far beyond both what he actually says and wants. This not to say that he likely is somewhat... insane and deluded with a lot of very backwards ideas.
    Don't be a prick, don't be a whiny little child - Stop White Genocide and Praise Jesus.

    Very nice, Getting a good picture everybody? So we look nice and handsome and thin? Thank you. -The God Emperor, creating world peace and unforgettable memes
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