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Thread: ISIS would attack the West even if Western troops and all its civilians left the Middle East entirely

  1. #21
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: ISIS would attack the West even if Western troops and all its civilians left the Middle East entirely

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Now here's something relevant to consider:



    Source: In nations with significant Muslim populations, much disdain for ISIS

    Great, except that's sort of a glass is half full assessment. I expected that the majority of Muslims would have a negative view of ISIS, but given the population of those countries, those results aren't exactly something to celebrate. That's something like 24 million with a positive view of ISIS in Nigeria, another 16 million in Pakistan and so forth.

    More of this sort of thing couldn't hurt: From Indonesia, a Muslim Challenge to the Ideology of the Islamic State
    Yep, those numbers are actually quite worrying. It's no surprise that Muslims in Lebanon hate ISIS, and no big surprise that the majority Shia nation of Iran wasn't included (obviously no one there is going to favor ISIS). It's also no mistake that Oman wouldn't make the list, since that country is majority Ibadi Muslim and they are very progressive by Middle Eastern standards. In fact, not a single Omani has joined ISIS, which comes as no surprise since they aren't Sunni and ISIS probably considers the Ibadis to be heretics much like the Shiites and Sufis. In fact, fellow Sunnis who aren't Salafists living within their caliphate are viewed as apostates by ISIS, so it's really just them against everyone else alive on planet earth.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy1204 View Post
    I think we should send ground troops and kick them out, no matter what the cost in lives. Soldiers know they might die; that's what happens in war. I say we send in ground forces, retake Fallujah, Ramadi and Mosul, and round up the leadership of ISIS, put them on trial for war crimes and then execute those found guilty. We then occupy their former territories for the next 50 years, implement a policy of deradicalisation, outlaw all symbols associated with the former regime, and keep soldiers stationed there as we re-educate the populace. Basically, their lands need to be occupied and their culture totally reformed, as Germany was after WW2.

    Sadly, the political will to do this is lacking, so it will never happen.
    The thing is, Germany wasn't occupied and transformed by Middle Eastern powers at the conclusion of WWII. It was occupied and transformed by other Western powers with similar cultures and historical ties. If anyone is going to occupy northern Iraq and eastern Syria and implement WWII-style reforms it will have to be regional Arab powers working in tandem with the Syrian government based in Damascus and Iraqi government based in Baghdad. Saudi Arabia and the Persian Gulf states have no interest colluding with Shia-dominated powers, though. Egypt would probably be on board for something like this, however, and possibly even Tunisia. If this is once again viewed as a Western-only occupation, it will only encourage another round of insurgency, and the cycle will continue.

  2. #22
    bigdaddy1204's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: ISIS would attack the West even if Western troops and all its civilians left the Middle East entirely

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    The thing is, Germany wasn't occupied and transformed by Middle Eastern powers at the conclusion of WWII. It was occupied and transformed by other Western powers with similar cultures and historical ties. If anyone is going to occupy northern Iraq and eastern Syria and implement WWII-style reforms it will have to be regional Arab powers working in tandem with the Syrian government based in Damascus and Iraqi government based in Baghdad. Saudi Arabia and the Persian Gulf states have no interest colluding with Shia-dominated powers, though. Egypt would probably be on board for something like this, however, and possibly even Tunisia. If this is once again viewed as a Western-only occupation, it will only encourage another round of insurgency, and the cycle will continue.
    The best candidate for an occupying force might be some combination of Turkey, Jordan and UAE. These are all Sunni states. The Turks don't speak Arabic, it's true, but then if we take WW2 as our template the language issue doesn't really matter. In fact, it could be a good thing, since they're less likely to absorb any ideas from the defeated population.
    Last edited by bigdaddy1204; November 30, 2015 at 08:54 AM.

  3. #23

    Default Re: ISIS would attack the West even if Western troops and all its civilians left the Middle East entirely

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy1204 View Post
    The best candidate for an occupying force might be some combination of Turkey, Jordan and UAE. These are all Sunni states. The Turks don't speak Arabic, it's true, but then if we take WW2 as our template the language issue doesn't really matter. In fact, it could be a good thing, since they're less likely to absorb any ideas from the defeated population.
    Actually, the Arabs still remember Turkey's Ottoman days, and any attempt at occupation from them will result in about as much resistance as a Western power. And the UAE doesn't have the population to occupy anything; they're rich, but far too small. Jordan's ability to act in foreign adventures is severely limited by the fact the army is both relatively small and needed at home to crush revolts, as something like 80% of the population is comprised of the descendants of Palestinian refugees that aren't particularly fond of their kingly overlord and his ruling well armed minority leadership; the country could fall apart at any moment even without getting involve on the ground in Syria.

    There are really no good candidates to occupy Syria. Plus, no one seems to want to take it upon themselves, and its hard to blame them, seeing as properly stabilizing the country will take a bare minimum of a decade, possibly much longer, all while churning out corpses steadily.
    If anything, Syria ought to be Balkanized rather then preserved, to help relieve some of the ethnic and religious tensions, and even then it'll be a taller order then anyone is willing to take on themselves.
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    Blaze86420's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: ISIS would attack the West even if Western troops and all its civilians left the Middle East entirely

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Now here's something relevant to consider:



    Source: In nations with significant Muslim populations, much disdain for ISIS

    Great, except that's sort of a glass is half full assessment. I expected that the majority of Muslims would have a negative view of ISIS, but given the population of those countries, those results aren't exactly something to celebrate. That's something like 24 million with a positive view of ISIS in Nigeria, another 16 million in Pakistan and so forth.

    More of this sort of thing couldn't hurt: From Indonesia, a Muslim Challenge to the Ideology of the Islamic State
    The countries that have the most significant sympathy are detached from the conflict with ISIS. Also consider that only 10% more Christian Nigerians voted unfavorably than Muslims Nigerians (72% vs 61%). You see an even stronger example of this in Malaysia, where more Muslims actually voted unfavorably than Buddhists did (67% vs 65%). What's going on with that? I'm going to venture a guess that ISIS doesn't get the most amount of coverage or emotional response in those regions, simply because of geographic distance.

    I would have liked a more detailed questionnaire, something like:

    -Do you support the establishment of a global Islamic state?
    -Should this Islamic state be ruled by a Caliph based in the Levant?
    -Do you support the enslavement of religious minorities besides the Christians and Jews (like the Yazidis)?
    -Should Christians and Jews pay the jizya and be barred from joining armed forces?
    -Should the Shia and other unorthodox Muslims be executed for apostasy?

    This would more effectively gauge actual support of ISIS and its policies vs greater Islamic cooperation.
    Last edited by Blaze86420; December 06, 2015 at 07:48 PM.

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    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: ISIS would attack the West even if Western troops and all its civilians left the Middle East entirely

    Why isn't there Saudi Arabia in the poll? And maybe knowing what they think the Egyptians would be interesting, as it would be very interesting from an European perspective what they think Iraqi, Libyan, Moroccan, Tunisian and Algerian people .. IMO the poll is too limited to be effective. It shows that American and European interests are following increasingly diverging paths.


    All in all, we have an impressive 8% of the people living in those countries interested in Wahhabi & Salafi (i.e. ISIS) ideology, this confirms the most horrid previsions.

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    Default Re: ISIS would attack the West even if Western troops and all its civilians left the Middle East entirely

    The reason why Saudi-Arabia isn't represented in the polls is likely because you can't get any polling data from there. And, I should add, this is a trend among the more, ahem, 'conservative' Islamistic countries.
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  7. #27

    Default Re: ISIS would attack the West even if Western troops and all its civilians left the Middle East entirely

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    The thing is, Germany wasn't occupied and transformed by Middle Eastern powers at the conclusion of WWII. It was occupied and transformed by other Western powers with similar cultures and historical ties. If anyone is going to occupy northern Iraq and eastern Syria and implement WWII-style reforms it will have to be regional Arab powers working in tandem with the Syrian government based in Damascus and Iraqi government based in Baghdad.
    You are assuming the Western powers do not create/desire/support terrorist factions.

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    Maiar93's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: ISIS would attack the West even if Western troops and all its civilians left the Middle East entirely

    You should never attribute something to malice, when it can be attributed to stupidity.
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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: ISIS would attack the West even if Western troops and all its civilians left the Middle East entirely

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy1204 View Post
    I think we should send ground troops and kick them out, no matter what the cost in lives. Soldiers know they might die; that's what happens in war. I say we send in ground forces, retake Fallujah, Ramadi and Mosul, and round up the leadership of ISIS, put them on trial for war crimes and then execute those found guilty. We then occupy their former territories for the next 50 years, implement a policy of deradicalisation, outlaw all symbols associated with the former regime, and keep soldiers stationed there as we re-educate the populace. Basically, their lands need to be occupied and their culture totally reformed, as Germany was after WW2.

    Sadly, the political will to do this is lacking, so it will never happen.
    Well that sounds easy from an arm chair or rather keyboard. Are ou going to volunteer? Pay a 10% war/occupation flat tax? Or just send the same poor sods with 2, 3 or more tours duty back forever on the credit card? When you find me a credible plan to restore the draft and raise taxes, and make that palatable to the American people and convince them to sustain the some 300,000 or more troops - I'll be impressed. Otherwise stop whining about lack of political will.

    Oh no ISIL manged a mass shooting in the US. What are you worried about we have one almost every day/week - and disgruntled employees, nut jobs, Militias, and Isolated little cultists have a better track record and they are not from Syria (or Iraq). I can see maybe Europe freaking out, but in America its what we do. For better or worse (depending on your view) we worship at the alter of the Second Amendment.

    But if you really what to save American lives your still better off demanding cars be banned, Or vote for people who improve funding for the EPA,USDA, NIH, CDC, state level public health, etc. Otherwise enjoy your endless war fantasy.
    Last edited by conon394; December 07, 2015 at 11:53 AM.
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  10. #30
    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: ISIS would attack the West even if Western troops and all its civilians left the Middle East entirely

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    But if you really what to save American lives your still better off demanding cars be banned, Or vote for people who improve funding for the EPA,USDA, NIH, CDC, state level public health, etc. Otherwise enjoy your endless war fantasy.
    It would be even better if scum like these two Jhiadist mass murderers are sent back home or erased from Earth face!


  11. #31
    Aneirin's Avatar of flowing verse
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    Default Re: ISIS would attack the West even if Western troops and all its civilians left the Middle East entirely

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    It would be even better if scum like these two Jhiadist mass murderers are sent back home or erased from Earth face!
    You won't solve the problem by killing them, you are only going to create some new fanatics.
    Radical thoughts and organisations grow, the more worse the situation of people become or is. There are many examples for that in history and two day I can mention at least two. This one here and Greece.

    Anyway, to the topic of that thread. I can quite agree on the point of the author, but in reverse we shouldn't close our eyes, since the ISIS is the most organized faction in the Syrian War.

    In my opinion the key to limit the ISIS is in the reorganisation of their opponents and not just selling them weapons.
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  12. #32
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: ISIS would attack the West even if Western troops and all its civilians left the Middle East entirely

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    What you're about to read has to deal with a particular Sunni brand of millenarianism that is largely divorced from the Christian doomsday claims and traditions spurred by the Bible's Book of Revelations (bust out your Old Testament for that one). However, just as George W. Bush cited them to a very confused French President Jacques Chirac preceding the 2003 Invasion of Iraq,
    Ah, the weak man of Europe,Chirac. Well, sadly, Chirac was not De Gaulle.
    In fact, on the eve of the war in Iraq, the Crusader-in-Chief G. Bush, a religious fanatic,on a direct mission from God-and heavily influenced by extremist Christians,talked about a "crusade". Another Christian fanatic, gen. Boykin, said about George W. Bush,
    "Now ask yourself: Why is this man in the White House? The majority of Americans did not vote for him. Why is he there? And I tell you this morning he’s in the White House because God put him there for a time such as this. God put him there to lead not only this nation but to lead the world in such a time as this...The enemy is a guy named Satan. Satan wants to destroy this nation. He wants to destroy us as a nation and he wants to destroy us as a Christian army"
    ------
    ------
    If I remember well, CIA gave birth to Osama Bin Laden. And again ,if I remember well, the invasion and occupation of Iraq created the pre-conditions for radical Sunni groups, like ISIS, to take root.
    What you're about to read...
    Read this,
    Defense Science Board, The Defense Science Board 1997 Summer Study Task Force on DoD Response toTransnational Threats (Washington: U.S. Department of Defense, October 1997), vol. 1, Final Report, p.15.
    Historical data show a strong correlation between U.S. involvement in international situations and an increase in terrorist attacks against the United States
    ----
    ----
    What do you guys think we should do?
    Pray to God and nuke'em.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
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  13. #33

    Default Re: ISIS would attack the West even if Western troops and all its civilians left the Middle East entirely

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    ------
    If I remember well, CIA gave birth to Osama Bin Laden.
    Your memory would be wrong. The CIA and UBL had nothing to do with each other. It is a myth. The Arabs who went to Afghanistan were not supported by the US. UBL was hostile towards the US even then.

  14. #34
    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: ISIS would attack the West even if Western troops and all its civilians left the Middle East entirely

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    Your memory would be wrong. The CIA and UBL had nothing to do with each other. It is a myth. The Arabs who went to Afghanistan were not supported by the US. UBL was hostile towards the US even then.
    Do you really believe in what you write? Do you seriously believe that CIA has not created from scratch Osama Bin Laden?

    So, do you actually believe even in Santa Claus, Bigfoot, Yeti and Atlantis?

    Great! I solidarize, IMHO it's a good thing there is still people believing in fables!

  15. #35

    Default Re: ISIS would attack the West even if Western troops and all its civilians left the Middle East entirely

    Last edited by Infidel144; December 07, 2015 at 09:04 PM.

  16. #36
    Gäiten's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: ISIS would attack the West even if Western troops and all its civilians left the Middle East entirely

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Do you really believe in what you write? Do you seriously believe that CIA has not created from scratch Osama Bin Laden?

    So, do you actually believe even in Santa Claus, Bigfoot, Yeti and Atlantis?

    Great! I solidarize, IMHO it's a good thing there is still people believing in fables!
    I have had ever to wonder about the magnificent omnipotence of the CIA and West. So are they "God"?

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  17. #37
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: ISIS would attack the West even if Western troops and all its civilians left the Middle East entirely

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Do you really believe in what you write? Do you seriously believe that CIA has not created from scratch Osama Bin Laden?

    So, do you actually believe even in Santa Claus, Bigfoot, Yeti and Atlantis?

    Great! I solidarize, IMHO it's a good thing there is still people believing in fables!
    From scratch? Even if the US made the poor decision (in hindsight) to fund and equip the Afghan mujahideen during the Reagan administration in the 80s when they were battling the Soviets, that's hardly tantamount to singlehandedly establishing al-Qaeda and building the career of Osama bin Laden. Diocle, you often criticize Saudi Arabia and rightly so, but do you not give Saudi funders and backers any credit for the rise of OBL and al-Qaeda? After all, the majority of 9/11 hijackers were Saudi citizens. If anything, the reliance of the US on Saudi Arabia as an ally and failure to hold them accountable for destablizing the Middle East as much as the US had done under George W. Bush is one of the root causes for the present situation we are facing. Yet don't remove from the Saudis and those who established al-Qaeda their own agency and desires to form their organization regardless of what the US government was busy doing at any given time. Al-Qaeda was attacking US targets like the Kenyan embassy and USS Cole during the Clinton administration. What the hell did Bill Clinton do in his Middle East policy to deserve their wrath? For that matter it highlights the fact that from the onset al-Qaeda was a deeply entrenched enemy of the United States because their ideology of Islamic supremacism and rule by the caliphate is one that is incompatible with modern societies and governments. Their success on 9/11 soon after Bush took office was simply the culmination of a number of attacks that had been launched against the US in the decade prior.

  18. #38
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: ISIS would attack the West even if Western troops and all its civilians left the Middle East entirely

    Quote Originally Posted by Gäiten View Post
    I have had ever to wonder about the magnificent omnipotence of the CIA and West. So are they "God"?
    Hehe. Well...let's hear Karl Rove,
    Suskind, Ron (2004-10-17). Faith, Certainty and the Presidency of George W. Bush. The New York Times Magazine. Quote taken from a NYT report by Ron Suskind,

    The aide* said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality."
    I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism.

    He cut me off. "That's not the way the world really works anymore." He continued "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors … and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.
    (* later acknowledged to have been Karl Rove)

    There you go.Disturbing, isn't it?

    Roma_Victrix
    Even if the US made the poor decision (in hindsight) to fund and equip the Afghan mujahideen during the Reagan administration in the 80s when they were battling the Soviets,
    ...and more than that. With a little help from "our" friends,



    ------
    Enjoy,
    Faith, Certainty and the Presidency of George W. Bush - The ...
    New York Times, 2004,

    Moments after the ceremony, Bush saw Wallis. He bounded over and grabbed the cheeks of his face, one in each hand, and squeezed. "Jim, how ya doin', how ya doin'!" he exclaimed. Wallis was taken aback. Bush excitedly said that his massage therapist had given him Wallis's book, "Faith Works." His joy at seeing Wallis, as Wallis and others remember it, was palpable -- a president, wrestling with faith and its role at a time of peril, seeing that rare bird: an independent counselor.

    Wallis recalls telling Bush he was doing fine, "'but in the State of the Union address a few days before, you said that unless we devote all our energies, our focus, our resources on this war on terrorism, we're going to lose.' I said, 'Mr. President, if we don't devote our energy, our focus and our time on also overcoming global poverty and desperation, we will lose not only the war on poverty, but we'll lose the war on terrorism."'

    Bush replied that that was why America needed the leadership of Wallis and other members of the clergy.

    "No, Mr. President," Wallis says he told Bush, "We need your leadership on this question, and all of us will then commit to support you. Unless we drain the swamp of injustice in which the mosquitoes of terrorism breed, we'll never defeat the threat of terrorism."

    Bush looked quizzically at the minister, Wallis recalls. They never spoke again after that.

    "When I was first with Bush in Austin, what I saw was a self-help Methodist, very open, seeking," Wallis says now. "What I started to see at this point was the man that would emerge over the next year -- a messianic American Calvinist. He doesn't want to hear from anyone who doubts him."
    Last edited by Ludicus; December 08, 2015 at 05:41 AM.
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
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  19. #39
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: ISIS would attack the West even if Western troops and all its civilians left the Middle East entirely

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Hehe. Well...let's hear Karl Rove,
    Suskind, Ron (2004-10-17). Faith, Certainty and the Presidency of George W. Bush. The New York Times Magazine. Quote taken from a NYT report by Ron Suskind,


    (* later acknowledged to have been Karl Rove)

    There you go.Disturbing, isn't it?

    Roma_Victrix

    ...and more than that. With a little help from "our" friends,



    ------
    Enjoy,
    Faith, Certainty and the Presidency of George W. Bush - The ...
    New York Times, 2004,
    Yep, the whole revelation about the Enron Corporation was extremely scandalous, to say the least, and was hardly the last scandal involving Enron as everyone knows. They provided a huge source of funding for the Taliban movement and al-Qaeda terror network in the 90s, but again it was among the sources and root causes for the rise of al-Qaeda (Saudi oil money is yet another major source and wellspring for their movement). The CIA was also merely the tool carrying out a larger Cold War policy instigated by Reagan and then carried on by corporate interests, so blaming the CIA is like blaming the knife that someone used to stab someone else in a knife attack.

  20. #40
    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: ISIS would attack the West even if Western troops and all its civilians left the Middle East entirely

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    Yep, the whole revelation about the Enron Corporation was extremely scandalous, to say the least, and was hardly the last scandal involving Enron as everyone knows. They provided a huge source of funding for the Taliban movement and al-Qaeda terror network in the 90s, but again it was among the sources and root causes for the rise of al-Qaeda (Saudi oil money is yet another major source and wellspring for their movement). The CIA was also merely the tool carrying out a larger Cold War policy instigated by Reagan and then carried on by corporate interests, so blaming the CIA is like blaming the knife that someone used to stab someone else in a knife attack.
    Sorry but that is the past, what has happened it has happened, we can't influence the past, this is a matter for historians, today we are on 2015 and we should ask to the USA why the they are bombing Syrian soldiers who are fighting against ISIS instead of bombing ISIS!

    This is the present day, we need answers now, we need quick answers to understand at least for whom and why our youth need to die in Syria, we need at least to know if we want to unleash an international war between nuclear powers just because few Bedouins want to build in Middle East a mysterious Caliphate, or whatever else those scumbags intend to do there.
    We need to know now, immediately, why Russia, Iran, China, Turkey, USA, France, Britain and now even the Germany are deploying troops and weapons in Syria, in Syrian waters and in Syrian sky and we still don't know who is fighting who, we do not know who are the enemies and we do not even know if ONU, NATO and EU are involved or not.
    Now, I don't want to state here we are close to WW3, but some ing clear statement by USA is in need! We need some ing clear indication by American Administration about the ing objectives and instruments to accomplish these objectives they intend to use, we are in desperate need of some clear ing position and choice about this horrendous ing maze created by Mr. ing Hussein ing Obama in Syria.

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