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Thread: The Modern Frankenstein

  1. #1
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default The Modern Frankenstein

    Surg Neurol Int. 2015; 6: 18.
    Published online 2015 Feb 3. doi: 10.4103/2152-7806.150674

    The “Gemini” spinal cord fusion protocol

    ...the gray matter neuropil will be restored by spontaneous regrowth of the severed axons/dendrites over very short distances at the point of contact between the apposed cords

    ...local sprouting between neurons in the gray matter (see above) will reestablish a functional bridge over days to weeks. This process is accelerated by electrical stimulation via application of a spinal cord stimulator (SCS) straddling the fusion point. For instance, 1 h of continuous electrical stimulation at 20 Hz applied right after suturing together the stumps of a transected peripheral nerve cut the regeneration time from 8–10 to 3 weeks; similar accelerations are seen in man.[17]
    Hmmm...was Mary Shelley right?

    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
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    Default Re: The Modern Frankenstein

    Electronic stim has been utilized in American orthopedic clinical practice to facilitate both peripheral nerve damage and bone repair/repair since 2000. It's particularly been used in spiral fractures.

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    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: The Modern Frankenstein

    Quote Originally Posted by RubiconDecision View Post
    Electronic stim has been utilized in American orthopedic clinical practice to facilitate both peripheral nerve damage ...
    Or after neurosurgery, applying electrical fields/gradients across a repaired peripheral nerve to speed up axonal regeneration. But there is a huge difference between the central and peripheral nervous system...
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

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    Default Re: The Modern Frankenstein

    The spinal cord is a tiny part (2%) of the Central Nervous System, but the peripheral nerve was transected.

    The CNS doesn't really repair, but new dendrites are created all the time while oligodendrocytes maintain. The CNS does undergo neurogenesis on a limited basis. Strangely enough certain activities increase neurogenesis, and that seperate topic was in a TedTalks video I linked to.

    The peripheral nervous system may repair partially or fully or fail. Electronic stim has been first utilized by psychiatrists to increase muscle tone in bedridden patients, by the USSR to enhance Olympic athletes, in America to treat neuropathy, and while doing so discovered bone remodeling was enhanced as was localized PNS regeneration. Additionally electronic stim has been utilized therapeutically to return orgasm to female patients by stimulating the spinal cord or the peripheral nerves but it's poorly understood.
    Last edited by RubiconDecision; November 20, 2015 at 02:58 PM.

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    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: The Modern Frankenstein

    Quote Originally Posted by RubiconDecision View Post
    The spinal cord is a tiny part (2%) of the Central Nervous System
    2%? what do you mean, and why are you saying that?
    ---------
    Back to the subject- it remains to be seen the recovery of the gray matter.Before a head transplantion, I want to see a C1 tetraplegic walking. (this will be more "easily" solved)
    Last edited by Ludicus; November 21, 2015 at 11:03 AM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

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    Default Re: The Modern Frankenstein

    Errr, because that is a standard taught in any anatomy course taught at the graduate school level in America.
    http://neuroscience.uth.tmc.edu/s2/chapter03.html
    3.2 General Features

    1. Similar cross-sectional structures at all spinal cord levels (Figure 3.1).
    2. It carries sensory information (sensations) from the body and some from the head to the central nervous system (CNS) via afferent fibers, and it performs the initial processing of this information.
    3. Motor neurons in the ventral horn project their axons into the periphery to innervate skeletal and smooth muscles that mediate voluntary and involuntary reflexes.
    4. It contains neurons whose descending axons mediate autonomic control for most of the visceral functions.
    5. It is of great clinical importance because it is a major site of traumatic injury and the locus for many disease processes.

    Although the spinal cord constitutes only about 2% of the central nervous system (CNS), its functions are vital. Knowledge of spinal cord functional anatomy makes it possible to diagnose the nature and location of cord damage and many cord diseases.

    3.3 Segmental and Longitudinal Organization
    The spinal cord is divided into four different regions: the cervical, thoracic, lumbar and sacral regions (Figure 3.1). The different cord regions can be visually distinguished from one another. Two enlargements of the spinal cord can be visualized: The cervical enlargement, which extends between C3 to T1; and the lumbar enlargements which extends between L1 to S2 (Figure 3.1).
    The cord is segmentally organized. There are 31 segments, defined by 31 pairs of nerves exiting the cord. These nerves are divided into 8 cervical, 12 thoracic, 5 lumbar, 5 sacral, and 1 coccygeal nerve (Figure 3.2). Dorsal and ventral roots enter and leave the vertebral column respectively through intervertebral foramen at the vertebral segments corresponding to the spinal segment.
    Just because work has been done to stimulate efferent (motor) neurons and allow some form of potential locomotion, without afferent (sensory) neurons sending signals back then the patient cannot balance themselves, have any tactile sensations, pressure sensation to determine footing, etc.
    Last edited by RubiconDecision; November 21, 2015 at 03:24 PM.

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    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: The Modern Frankenstein

    because that is a standard taught in any anatomy course taught at the graduate school level in America.
    It's just a pedagogical way to teach students,to call attention to the role of the spinal cord. In fact, any young student of Medicine knows the anatomy of the CNS. But why should we compare now the weigh of the brain with the weigh of the spinal cord? I repeat my previous question- what are you trying to say with:The spinal cord is a tiny part (2%) of the Central Nervous System"? -it's completely irrelevant to the topic.
    ------
    Just because work has been done to stimulate efferent (motor) neurons and allow some form of potential locomotion, without afferent (sensory) neurons sending signals back then the patient cannot balance themselves,
    We know that. I would like to se a C1 tetraplegic patient walking using his brain. I am very, very skeptical. Why doesn't he try to use his technique as an immediate treatment for a C1 ASIA A? that would make sense, not a head transplant in...2017.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  8. #8

    Default Re: The Modern Frankenstein

    Your nitpicking posts accomplish nothing. If your goal is to encourage college age people to consider medicine, then encouragement and facilitating education of neuroanatomy is a better way. Abrasive posts ensure a budding student will not ask questions.

    I doubt a 16-18 year old has any idea about the OP. 90% of TWC has no idea either. As such, if the goal is discussion, then background information is needed on an arcane topic.

    The complexity of the CNS to PNS at the spinal cord can be understood with diagrams and videos especially due to the USMLE(the US Medical exam in steps to demonstrate proficiency). Since Medicine is a noble Art, young altruistic educated people are hungry to learn those mysteries.

    A head transplant is monstrous as we don't have the science yet.
    Last edited by RubiconDecision; November 21, 2015 at 07:20 PM.

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    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: The Modern Frankenstein

    Quote Originally Posted by RubiconDecision View Post
    The complexity of the CNS to PNS at the spinal cord can be understood with diagrams and videos
    Listen, I see your point, and I respect it.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    But - in my opinion- it's just my opinion- I'm (we are) here to discuss this monstruosity, in a very simple way...not to teach neuroanatomy

    I think we agree on this - as you said," head transplant is monstrous as we don't have the science yet".

    Well, the debate has already started.An excellent and very simple article, from John Doyle, Anesthesiology and Pain, Cleveland Hospital,March 2015,
    The "Gemini" spinal cord fusion protocol: Reloaded
    ....Now on to the present initiative. Given White's pioneering work, many of the surgical details have been worked out, but two important obstacles will have to be overcome: 1.) fusing the donor and recipient spinal cord into a neurologically integrated unit, and 2.) preventing rejection of the graft (an interesting question arises here: is the graft the body or is it the head?). Experience in composite graft (e.g. face) transplantation suggests that the immunological problem, while formidable, can likely be overcome, so getting the spinal cords to fuse will be the central obstacle to deal with. However, given that polyethylene glycol has been shown to prompt the growth of spinal cord nerves in animals {9}, this impediment may eventually be manageable as well.
    Clearly, this initiative will spark immense interest and ethical debate. Stay tuned.
    ----...
    Canavero argues that by slicing through the spine with an extremely sharp knife, the mostly intact fibres could reconnect with the help of the PEG glue and electrical stimulation, and the likehood of the process is 90%. For those interested, he compares the head with a banana (j/k)



    But he also argues that a preliminary experiment would need to be performed on a primate model.How can he aim to perform a human head transplant in 2017?...
    Canavaro forgot to mention that when the spinal cord is severed, there are immune cells that flock to the site of injury (to patch the injury,making a glial scar)- but the problem is- at the same time those cells release chemicals that stop the two severed ends from fusing.The electric stimulus/ immunotherapy- it will be enough? on a side note, polyethylene glycol implantation doesn't work quite well in chronic patients.
    Is he able, but not willing to use his fusion protocol in patients with a fresh injury to the spinal cord?
    Last edited by Ludicus; November 22, 2015 at 05:29 AM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

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    Default Re: The Modern Frankenstein

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Is he able, but not willing to use his fusion protocol in patients with a fresh injury to the spinal cord?
    The saga goes on.Following this line of reasoning,
    Link
    "As far as I can tell, that operation has mostly been about publicity rather than the production of good science.”...
    ..."We are most interested in spinal cord reconstruction using head transplantation as a proof of principle. Our journal does not necessarily support head transplantation because of multiple ethical issues and multiple considerations of informed consent and the possibility of negative consequences of a head transplant"
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

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    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: The Modern Frankenstein

    The unstoppable Canavaro strikes again,

    World's first human head transplant a success, controversial scientist

    The operation was carried out by a team led by Dr Xiaoping Ren of Harbin Medical University, China, who last year successfully grafted a head onto the body of a monkey.
    Italian Professor Sergio Canavero, Director of the Turin Advanced Neuromodulation Group, who has been working with the team, said they would 'imminently' move onto a living human who was paralysed from the neck down.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

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    NorseThing's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: The Modern Frankenstein

    Well it is not from a super market tabloid by Murdoch, so it must be true.

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    NorseThing's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: The Modern Frankenstein

    MOre on this fake news from NYU via Fox News:
    Dr. Sergio Canavero, a neurosurgeon at the Advanced Neuromodulation Group in Italy, is claiming that he is once again on the verge of a live human head transplant, this time in China – despite the fact that he has never achieved sustained or even limited success in animals.




    There are many reasons not to take this claim seriously. In fact, it can be considered a mockery or affront to spinal cord injury victims everywhere, who eagerly await the latest news of new spinal cord stimulators, nerve growth factors and advances in robotics. We are definitely reaching an exciting era of enabling paralyzed patients to walk again.


    But as far as head transplants go, think science fiction horror. The brain has millions of nerve endings that can’t simply be reattached. If this were possible, we would have seen successful attempts to bypass areas of damaged spinal cord a long time ago.


    Any attempted head transplant is likely to cause tremendous pain, not to mention instant rejection that no amount of immunosuppressive drugs would be sufficient to overcome.
    Canavero’s cruel and crude experiments bring to mind the horrible Nazi experiments on Auschwitz concentration camp inmates carried out by Dr. Josef Mengele. They should not be condoned in any way.
    If nothing else, surgical research should never take place on humans unless it has first been successful in animals. We should be proud that America and Europe refuse to allow Canavero to conduct his “research” here.


    Dr. Arthur Caplan, head of medical ethics at the New York University School of Medicine and a prominent organ transplant expert, agrees that Canavero “has not done the minimal research in animals to back up his preposterous claims about the feasibility of head transplants.”
    Caplan adds that “if a doctor promises the most severely disabled the hope of a cure on the basis of crackpot science he is at best cruel. If you promise longer life to those whose bodies are ravaged by disease on the basis of one surgery on corpses and animal experiments that have not worked you are an immoral shyster. That is what he is.”
    Caplan concludes that “head transplants are fake news.” He adds that “anyone who promote such claims through press releases and press conferences and very little else … merits not headlines but only contempt and condemnation.”
    Still, Canavero’s disturbingly unethical and unscientific experiments raise a question: Does a transplant alter personality and perspective?
    In fact, cellular memory is a real concept even if a head transplant isn’t. There have been many reported cases of personality transfer from donor to recipient after a transplant.
    Former Vice President Dick Cheney told me in an interview in 2013 that he was very grateful for the heart he received transplanted from a donor. And he said that a person’s heart was not political – even if many liberals thought he had never had one.
    The holiday season is a time for celebrating real medical advances in transplant surgery, not fake ones. Surgical miracles such as the first successful bilateral hand transplant on a child took place two years ago at the Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia.
    At around the same time, the most extensive facial transplant ever performed was done at New York University Langone Medical Center
    Now is a time to rejoice in these real accomplishments, not to celebrate a self-promoting, phony and cruel grandstander that our country’s scientific community has correctly rejected.
    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/...ever-work.html

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