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Thread: did all limitanei fight as spearmen?

  1. #1

    Default did all limitanei fight as spearmen?

    it seems strange. dividing your army like that.

  2. #2

    Default Re: did all limitanei fight as spearmen?

    The Limitanei were basically guys who were told they could farm in/around a fortress if they fought in the garrisons defense if I understand correctly.

    I would imagine that they fought in all sorts of ways, but given how affordable spears are, I am sure a lot of those were used.

  3. #3

    Default Re: did all limitanei fight as spearmen?

    The game seem to portray the as spearmen, but in reality they wielded a variety of equipment. While the limetanei were part of the regular Roman army, a lot its forces were treated as irregulars with a lot frontiersmen joining the ranks to guard the borders. I would say that even the Cohors unit in the game would be classified in the Limetanei rank. The game unit names are a bit ill-patterned and unorganized to be honest...

  4. #4

    Default Re: did all limitanei fight as spearmen?

    They really wanted to get more names in to impress the masses.

  5. #5
    Charerg's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: did all limitanei fight as spearmen?

    A Limitanei unit could be anything from a cataphract to a light infantryman. The Limitanei designation simply means that these units manned the "Limes", the garrisons along the Roman borders. The Comitatenses on the other hand, were field armies stationed in reserve, and the Palatina was the personal army of the Emperor, usually stationed at the capital city.

    In other words, the designation only refers to their strategic deployment, not necessarily equipment or troop type. Btw, most Roman (and Barbarian) heavy infantry would be equipped primarily with a spear and also have a sword as a sidearm. Historically, "swordsmen" are kind of rare in the sense that the sword was usually a sidearm rather than the primary weapon.
    Last edited by Charerg; November 09, 2015 at 10:09 AM.

  6. #6
    Linke's Avatar Hazarapatish
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    Default Re: did all limitanei fight as spearmen?

    Limitanei simply implies the units large strategical role and not it's equipment. De facto they were paid a bit less but equipment wise would have been more similar than not to the other army divisions. However Cavalry was more common with the Limitanei, it is very useful for patrolling large parts of the border and responding quickly to invading warbands. This also proves that Limitanei were not very bad off conpared to the others, Cavalry is expensive after all. They all evolved from the same legionairy cohorts just some remained at the border like their old legions and became Limitanei

  7. #7

    Default Re: did all limitanei fight as spearmen?

    strange i thought most roman infantry fought as swordsmen first armed with a gladius then the spatha.

    anyway so basically limitanei and comitatenses were unit roles and not unit themselves

    how was this any different from the early roman practice? if im not mistaken most legions were always stationed at the borders.

    were the limitanei of the same quality as comitatenses?

    also what happened to them during byzantine times? did they becomes acritae/tagmata respectively? or some thing like that?

  8. #8
    Charerg's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: did all limitanei fight as spearmen?

    Quote Originally Posted by evripidis View Post
    strange i thought most roman infantry fought as swordsmen first armed with a gladius then the spatha.

    anyway so basically limitanei and comitatenses were unit roles and not unit themselves

    how was this any different from the early roman practice? if im not mistaken most legions were always stationed at the borders.

    were the limitanei of the same quality as comitatenses?

    also what happened to them during byzantine times? did they becomes acritae/tagmata respectively? or some thing like that?
    You're right that the Roman heavy infantry of earlier times was typically armed with a Pilum and a Gladius. They're the "exception to the rule" that the sword is a sidearm. And yes, after Augustus solidified the borders of the Roman Empire and it stopped expanding, the majority of the legions were indeed stationed at the borders. It's worth noting that even then at least 50% if not more of the Roman army was formed by the Auxilia, though I think they were stationed along the borders as well.

    In late Roman times the distinction between Auxilia and Legions fell away. As I understand it, the Gladius gradually grew longer and more Spatha-like (the Spatha was always in use as a cavalry sword and a sidearm for officers) until there was no distinction between the two sword types. Also, the Pilum became increasingly rare (it was still used in late Roman times, both by barbarians and Romans, calling it Angon and Spiculum, respectively). Instead of the Pilum, the line infantry were equipped with a thrusting spear (called the Contus, I believe).

    In tactical terms, I think the change in weaponry reflected a change in the role of the heavy infantry to a more defensive force, forming a "shield wall" protecting various missile troops. This is in contrast to the role of earlier legionnaries as "shock infantry", that were typically deployed in deeper formations intended to break through the enemy. The change in shield design probably reflected this as well, since I don't imagine it was possible to "lock shields" with the Principate era cylinder-shaped Scutums.

  9. #9

    Default Re: did all limitanei fight as spearmen?

    The whole "Increased Access to Cavalry" has made me think of a new side-project I will be perusing in updating my big garrisons mod...

    Thank you all for this conversation.

  10. #10
    FrozenmenSS's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: did all limitanei fight as spearmen?

    just a reminder - the Limitanei in BI for Rome 1 were also spearmen.But mid tier one.

  11. #11
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: did all limitanei fight as spearmen?

    Limitanei were full equipted "armies" with all kind of units.
    Recently there was a paper about the 6th century Black Operations , long distance reconaisance units that belonged to Limitanei troops.
    Limitanei armies had from slingers to Clibanarii. There was a dispute about the "cataphract" style units in East Roman Empire that all Palatinae cataphracts were known as Cataphractarii and the cataphracts of Limitanei were known as Clibanarii. In game if we would like to portay Limitanei troops the modders should chose few real Metropolis cities that their barracks should offer Palatinae troops and the rest of provinces should give ONLY Limitanei troops of all kind.
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

    IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
    Adding MARKA HORSES in your mod and create new varietions of them. Tutorial RESTORED.


  12. #12

    Default Re: did all limitanei fight as spearmen?

    so the difference now was that the some of the army(comitateneses palatini) would not be stationed near the border? if so i can only assume that this was so they could respond with great numbers whenever a big enemy force attack some area. im not sure if it's necessarily more effective though.

    it says on wikipedia that the limitanei were paid less than the comitatenses. does that mean that they were of lesser quality? or was it to make up for the advantage they had of not moving a lot.

    also emperor justinian cancelled their pay. this seems strange. i mean who works for free? is it possible this means they were actually abolished? after all during this emperor's time the empire stopped being defensive and was (for a time anyway) like rome of old. so perhaps they returned to the previous system?

  13. #13
    Charerg's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: did all limitanei fight as spearmen?

    The basic idea with the Comitatenses and Palatini was indeed to establish a "strategic reserve" that could respond to major incursions that penetrated the border fortifications and their garrisons. In the previous system the Romans had basically no reserves to deploy if a barbarian force made it past the frontiers. So the new system was definitely sound from the point of view of military strategy. If you look at, say, WW II strategy, you'll also note that armoured regiments are likewise stationed in reserve (when on the defensive) in order to respond to enemy breakthroughs.

    Another reason for the Comitatenses and the Palatini was political. Their existence meant that the Emperor had direct access to a large military force, his "personal army". They were probably better paid in order to ensure their loyalty. In prior times it was common that a military leader from some border province like Pannonia could be declared Emperor and he would go on marching to victory since the border provinces were the ones that had all the military power. The reform was partially a reaction to the "3rd century crisis" when Rome went through an extended period of continuous civil war.

    As to Justinian's era, even then there was always a need to protect the borders. During Justinian's time the Balkans were overrun by the Slavs, who took over several Roman border fortifications (which of course would have been garrisoned). So the Limitanei definitely continued to exist in some form. I guess they did become more of a "feudal force" (being paid with land instead of money) during the Byzantine era, though.

  14. #14

    Default Re: did all limitanei fight as spearmen?

    is it just me or did romans eventually become a bit slow at adopting new things? it took them 3 centuries to think of this solution. same with adopting heavy cavalry.

    one last thing how were the comitatenses and palatini more loyal to the emperor? what's to preven them from rebelling?

  15. #15

    Default Re: did all limitanei fight as spearmen?

    is it just me or did romans eventually become a bit slow at adopting new things? it took them 3 centuries to think of this solution. same with adopting heavy cavalry.

    one last thing how were the comitatenses and palatini more loyal to the emperor? what's to preven them from rebelling

  16. #16
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    Default Re: did all limitanei fight as spearmen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charerg View Post
    A Limitanei unit could be anything from a cataphract to a light infantryman. The Limitanei designation simply means that these units manned the "Limes", the garrisons along the Roman borders. The Comitatenses on the other hand, were field armies stationed in reserve, and the Palatina was the personal army of the Emperor, usually stationed at the capital city.

    In other words, the designation only refers to their strategic deployment, not necessarily equipment or troop type. Btw, most Roman (and Barbarian) heavy infantry would be equipped primarily with a spear and also have a sword as a sidearm. Historically, "swordsmen" are kind of rare in the sense that the sword was usually a sidearm rather than the primary weapon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Linke View Post
    Limitanei simply implies the units large strategical role and not it's equipment. De facto they were paid a bit less but equipment wise would have been more similar than not to the other army divisions. However Cavalry was more common with the Limitanei, it is very useful for patrolling large parts of the border and responding quickly to invading warbands. This also proves that Limitanei were not very bad off conpared to the others, Cavalry is expensive after all. They all evolved from the same legionairy cohorts just some remained at the border like their old legions and became Limitanei
    Quote Originally Posted by Charerg View Post
    You're right that the Roman heavy infantry of earlier times was typically armed with a Pilum and a Gladius. They're the "exception to the rule" that the sword is a sidearm. And yes, after Augustus solidified the borders of the Roman Empire and it stopped expanding, the majority of the legions were indeed stationed at the borders. It's worth noting that even then at least 50% if not more of the Roman army was formed by the Auxilia, though I think they were stationed along the borders as well.

    In late Roman times the distinction between Auxilia and Legions fell away. As I understand it, the Gladius gradually grew longer and more Spatha-like (the Spatha was always in use as a cavalry sword and a sidearm for officers) until there was no distinction between the two sword types. Also, the Pilum became increasingly rare (it was still used in late Roman times, both by barbarians and Romans, calling it Angon and Spiculum, respectively). Instead of the Pilum, the line infantry were equipped with a thrusting spear (called the Contus, I believe).

    In tactical terms, I think the change in weaponry reflected a change in the role of the heavy infantry to a more defensive force, forming a "shield wall" protecting various missile troops. This is in contrast to the role of earlier legionnaries as "shock infantry", that were typically deployed in deeper formations intended to break through the enemy. The change in shield design probably reflected this as well, since I don't imagine it was possible to "lock shields" with the Principate era cylinder-shaped Scutums.
    Quote Originally Posted by Charerg View Post
    The basic idea with the Comitatenses and Palatini was indeed to establish a "strategic reserve" that could respond to major incursions that penetrated the border fortifications and their garrisons. In the previous system the Romans had basically no reserves to deploy if a barbarian force made it past the frontiers. So the new system was definitely sound from the point of view of military strategy. If you look at, say, WW II strategy, you'll also note that armoured regiments are likewise stationed in reserve (when on the defensive) in order to respond to enemy breakthroughs.

    Another reason for the Comitatenses and the Palatini was political. Their existence meant that the Emperor had direct access to a large military force, his "personal army". They were probably better paid in order to ensure their loyalty. In prior times it was common that a military leader from some border province like Pannonia could be declared Emperor and he would go on marching to victory since the border provinces were the ones that had all the military power. The reform was partially a reaction to the "3rd century crisis" when Rome went through an extended period of continuous civil war.

    As to Justinian's era, even then there was always a need to protect the borders. During Justinian's time the Balkans were overrun by the Slavs, who took over several Roman border fortifications (which of course would have been garrisoned). So the Limitanei definitely continued to exist in some form. I guess they did become more of a "feudal force" (being paid with land instead of money) during the Byzantine era, though.
    Some good posts, but if you would allow me to clarify, this may help:

    Limitanei was a strategic designation, but the term itself first appears in a Law of (Valentinian II? Maybe Gratian) in 386 AD. Various other terms that would become classified as Limitanei (Riparienses, Ripenses, Burgarii, Castellani, Muscularii) all appear in other places in the Theodosian code prior to that law and after it.

    There was technically no difference in quality and equipment between the Limitanei and Comitatenses. It wasn't until the Emperor Anastasius in the end of the 5th century/early 6th century that they were begun to be granted lands around the fortresses that they garrisoned. A law of Valentinian III in 444 reinforced the punishment for doing it, so it was clear that even in the dying west that their status of professional soldiers was supposed to be maintained. By Justinian's time they were professional soldiers that had their families maintain lands around the forts or cities, while they did their soldiers' duties (and farmed etc. in their off time).

    I think people often misunderstand that when this came about in the 6th century, the Limitanei (and later Akritai) performed their soldiering duties primairly, and only then were these duties followed by working lands/etc. they were given around the fort, not the other way around (as farmers first and soldiers when they needed to be).

    The difference was primarily in pay (Limitanei were paid 1 Annona, or 4 Solidi (5 under Anastasius onwards)) and in legal status. Limitanei didn't have as many tax breaks and legal privileges as the Comitatenses or Auxilia Palatina, but all soldiers were Honorati so they had higher status than the standard Cives (citizens).

    Distribution of infantry vs. cavalry in the Limitanei corresponds to where they were garrisoned. On Hadrian's wall you have a relatively standard mix (bout 70-30 ratio) of infantry to cavalry. In Gaul, the Saxon Shore, the upper Danube, Egypt, and on the Sassanid frontier it's predominately infantry. On the Middle Danube and Lower Danube, where they were facing Sarmatians, Vandals, Goths, and later Huns, there's a very large percentage of Cavalry. In North Africa there's a large number of cavalry units too to manage the nomadic tribesmen and guide them between pastures inside and outside the empire (and for raiders too).

    As for the Gladius-> Spatha thing, no the Gladius did not get progressively longer. It had been getting progressively shorter until the 2nd century and was dropped in the 3rd century, completely replaced by the Lauriacum-Hromovka type Spatha.

    Furthermore, yes swordsmen were quite rare, with the Roman army being the exception. From about the 3rd century BC to the 15th century AD the Roman army gave every professional soldier a sword, which was more or less unheard of outside of the major Chinese empires that came about every 100-200 years or so.

    The principate scutum and formations were shield walls, the change in scutum design was because if you know how to fight with a sword like a Spatha, you need a round shield to do it because your objective is to get inside the enemy's weapon arm and shield so you can stab or cut them where they can't block you easily. The other method was to do it from the side with stabbing attacks, which is what the Gladius/rectangular scutum was good for.

    BTW this probably should be in the historical discussion forum.
    Last edited by Magister Militum Flavius Aetius; November 12, 2015 at 04:17 PM.

  17. #17

    Default Re: did all limitanei fight as spearmen?

    I believe Limitanei were like a mixed amount of forces. They weren't really a part of the regular army, and weren't strictly spearmen, though I guess it's a bit of a disclaimer when the game adds the "spearmen" part in the name, though diversity in the unit would be cool.

  18. #18

    Default Re: did all limitanei fight as spearmen?

    My bad! It's actually Limitanei Borderguards!

  19. #19
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    Default Re: did all limitanei fight as spearmen?

    Limitanei were a part of the regular army. The Romans always kept professional forces, it wasn't until the mid-late 6th century when they became somewhat semi-professional, and even then the Limitanei/Akritai were FAR better than anything else in the world for the next 5-6 centuries.

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