FATW: Dominion of Men Faction and Gameplay Guides

[athanaric]

Excellent guide! The strategies listed here would have prevented me from some headaches in Eriador and the south when I last played as Dale. And Dale is wonderfully suited to project its power in this way.

Thanks. I've been meaning to complete and upload these for a long time now. They're not complete guides, but are meant to supplement what you and I have written before. By the way, I couldn't find your Rohan guide, if there ever was one?

[Wambat]

Why do you describe Swordsmen of Harad as "bugged"?

[athanaric]

Why do you describe Swordsmen of Harad as "bugged"?

Well, technically it's a Vanilla RTW glitch. When controlled by the AI, they *throw* their javelins in close combat. This, combined with the AP attribute and the mod-specific stat system* (very high missile damage), causes them to inflict way more damage than they should.


*Legionaries in EB I have very similar attributes, but I don't recall them to be quite as devastating.

[CountMRVHS]

Huh, I couldn't find a Rohan guide either, athanaric... Again, it seems I must have done a bunch of the writing for it ahead of time, but never finished & published it. Either that, or it got swallowed up when the site went down last year. I'll see what I have on file.

[Dáin II]

*Edit: I'll still make changes here over time. Realized that it's quite fun to play and write guides about it. I would be too technically stupid for LPs and besides that am not used to talking while playing. With guides, I can practice my writing a bit and hopefully share something valuable for other players. This is basically the only game I play, and I play it quite a lot so I think it can help. I don't want to replace existing guides, just provide an add-on with a more specific strategy.
I progressed further into the campaign and am planning to add parts about the conquests of Dunland and Gondor next. Just a bit busy in real life, so it might take a week or 2. What I can already say is that this Tharbad campaign is one of the most fun campaigns I ever played. The late game, when Harad becomes the main enemy is amazing, especially because Tharbad with it's location at the sea is one of the few factions where naval warfare plays a more important role.

Aggressive Tharbad
As verified by many players, Adunabar often gets very strong in Tharbad campaigns. I have tested a more aggressive approach on recommended settings to put the player in a more secure position from which achieving victory conditions or more advanced goals is very doable. Hope this will be helpful for some people.

Summary

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The strategy relies on a resource-based view of the kingdom. In order to achieve sustainable competitive advantage, areas with key resources need to be conquered and secured by high entry barriers. In the case of Tharbad, the most wealthy targets are the settlements initially held by the RK and Adunabar in the north. Once one of the parties has won the civil war in Eriador, it will control an economically more powerful area than Tharbad and become a big threat. As a consequence, there are considerable early-mover advantages to prevent one enemy (usually Adunabar) to get too strong. Important milestones are the conquests of Threeways and Sarnford early, followed by destroying the infrastructure in Adunabar's starting settlements to prevent recruitment of strong units. Spies and diplomats are of vital importance to avoid bigger armies and to strike where the enemy is weak. From there, remaining rebel settlements around Tharbad can be taken with smaller armies, while the main force waits for a good moment to strike towards Bree, Fornost and Annuminas, and afterwards the rest of Eriador. Less wealthy settlements on the borders are given to dwarves and elves to create a secure buffer-zone. Below is a picture of how the secure area can look on the mini-map and a more detailed version of the strategy.

Guide

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Buildings and Economy
Not much to say about this. As in every campaign any building that increases your income is useful and most has been said in other posts, so I just want to mention 2 particular projects that I find important to build early.

Tier 2 carpenter industry in Tharbad will reduce construction costs faction wide, which is helpful when building the dominion buildings. In the later game, when construction cost reduction can be delivered from other provinces, the industry in Tharbad can be changed to fish, which gives higher population growth.

The second important project is tier 1 military in Threeways and Sarnford, which will give you your cheapest units, Eriador Scouts (40 upkeep), as well as very cheap Spearmen. These will be very important to add some more numbers to your armies. Better troops are not affordable in large numbers in the early game.

With regards to policies, this strategy will be very straightforward. Most settlements will get financial policy, since the merchant king is greedy and wants to maximize profits. An important military cluster will be built in the Tharbad, Greyholm, and Swanfleet triangle. Only homelands offer the highest tier units. Tharbad only has those three and Lond Daer. At least one additional military settlement to aid Tharbad with recruitment should be chosen in the long term. Administrative policy is a good choice for poor settlements with public order problems, such as Vorn Hollen.


Expansion
The generally agreed upon first target in a Tharbad campaign is Threeways. As long as the RK holds Bree, Adunabar will not target it very aggressively to get it back. This gives some time for further expansion. The obvious next target is Sarnford, which will have good trade thanks to bordering hobbits and dwarves. Even though all those rebel provinces in the area are unwalled, it is often preferable to starve them out, so earlier conquests have time to get their dominion buildings done.

From this position, have an eye on what's happening in the north and take advantages of weaknesses. Having some diplomats and spies in the area is crucial for success. The key is to wait until Adunabar has send all their big stacks towards the RK and the northern rebel settlements and their main recruitment area (Lastbridge, Taurdal, Ettendale) is only lightly guarded. Send a large army there to destroy all the infrastructure and expel the populations (can be done within the first 15 turns). This should leave Adunabar strong enough to beat the RK, but too weak to do much against you afterwards. Lastbridge and Ettendale are good candidates to give to elves and dwarves, more about that further below.

Now it's all about waiting until the RK is finished. In the meantime, all those rebel settlements that are left can be taken. Especially Ridhmallen (good trade with horses), Swanfleet (homeland), and Ost-in-Edhil (no building costs, good trade) are useful. For some reason, the victory condition settlements of Tharbad are the least attractive ones to grab. None of them gets you a lot of money, all of them have to be fully developed (unless done so by an earlier conqueror), and some of them follow the ways of darkness and are outlands for Tharbad.

When Adunabar has taken Bree, it's time to expand further north. The first targets are Bree, Fornost and Annuminas. If the RK still holds Annuminas, it can be purchased later. A second stack can move towards Amon Sul and Taurdal. Further expansion in the north is not necessary. These are the richest settlements and they count as fiefdoms, while the ones further north are outlands.

Leaving those outlands to Adunabar is not really an option though, so the armies can move further north to take Tirn-Fervain and Forodrain and gift them to the dwarves. Adunabar in the north is now isolated in Angmar and the dwarves are protecting your rich fiefdoms from orcs. If you feel like continuing the war against Adunabar later, the settlements can always be purchased back from the dwarves including an extra trade bonus from the roadhouse building line and deep mines in Ettendale, which are both not available to Tharbad. If Lastbridge and Rivendell have been given to the elves before, you don't need to worry about Beornings as well.

Now the game gets a lot more relaxed. This whole area only needs to be defended in your starting provinces Greyholm and Lond Daer, so you can send all your good units there and let your northern provinces run on cheap Eriadorians. There is also enough money to keep building everywhere. From this secure and wealthy position (doable to get there within 60-70 turns), it's easy to reach any interesting goals a merchant king could have, such as victory conditions, assimilation units, or coastal raids in the far south.


Army Composition
In general, in the beginning numbers will count more and the army will be a mix of lots of cheap missile units and infantry, with only few elites and cavalry. A useful early game formation can look like this:

1FM
6-8 Mariner/Mercenary Bowmen
2-4 Skirmishers (Eriadorian, Dunlendish)
6-8 Infantry (mostly low tier; Eriador Spearmen, Tharbad Militia, Spears of the Bridge, Tharbad Axemen)
0-2 Cavalry (low availability in the beginning, Eriador Spearmen can counter enemy cavalry too)

The basic tactic is to pepper enemy missile units with your archers, harass heavier infantry with your skirmishers and target cavalry with spearmen. Archers will be lost, having that many of them, but they can always be easily replaced by mercenaries. When stronger units (e.g. Dark Swords) are isolated, they can be surrounded and killed. Having 2 axemen, your general and your starting unit of mariner swordmen for this task is helpful. Mostly elites are too expensive in the beginning, especially the Longbowmen. An additional unit of armour piercing Mariner Swordmen can be very useful against Adunabar, but it's not a must. Tharbad Axemen are surprisingly strong as well.

Once the money is coming in a more advanced good all purpose formation can look like this:

1FM
2 City Longbowmen
2 Ballistae
4 Mariner Bowmen
4 Spearmen/Pikemen
4 Swordmen/Axemen
2 Merchant Scouts

This formation still leaves space for one unit of Vassal Warhounds, the easiest available assimilation unit for Tharbad. Further expansion into Rohan and Gondor will give access to heavy cavalry and infantry assimilation units, which can make Tharbad armies truly elite.


Strategic Outlook
This depends a bit on what's happening in the south. Doing some build-up years and getting rich first, while keeping an eye on happenings in Rohan and Gondor is a good option.

Usually, Rohan will start losing ground against Dunland, once also pressured from the east by Adunabar or Harad. When Dunland has conquered its first territories in Rohan, it's a good moment to strike and take all their homelands, down to Dol Baran, which will improve the strategic position even more, having only one petty province with a river crossing to defend.

From there, taking Helm's Deep is the next logic step, which gives access to Tharbad's strongest cavalry and protects further expansion south, towards Dunfreca and Erindol. Taking more of Rohan is very interesting as well, to get more recruitment areas for heavy cavalry, since Helm's Deep is very wealthy and therefore better suited for a financial policy.

Further, Tharbad is in a very strong position to do serious harm to Harad now. If they are expanding too fast, it might be worth to destroy their main infrastructure to slow them down, basically the same preventive approach as in the early game with Adunabar. Shielded by Rohan and the RK, this gives also opportunity to get additional money from ceasefire negotiations.


If everything goes as planned, a weakened Harad will still overrun Gondor in the south, which can in turn be liberated and turned into a secure position, by building an elven corridor from the Brown Lands to South Ithilien.

Additional expansion in the north can always be interesting too. The Shire can be conquered or better made a protectorate. The settlements that were gifted to the Dwarves can be purchased back, to restart the war against Adunabar in the north. It's highly recommended to create a new dwarven buffer in Angmar then, since public order there will be an issue.

In conclusion, the merchant king has plenty of options to make his city kingdom an empire, once a secure and wealthy starting position is attained.

[webba84]

Well, technically it's a Vanilla RTW glitch. When controlled by the AI, they *throw* their javelins in close combat. This, combined with the AP attribute and the mod-specific stat system* (very high missile damage), causes them to inflict way more damage than they should.


*Legionaries in EB I have very similar attributes, but I don't recall them to be quite as devastating.

This is why we reduced the number of javelins they carry, because originally they were outperforming RK MaA in a 1v1 fight. Is the consensus that they are still overpowered for their tier and cost? There are ways I can decrease their missile effectiveness without too much hassle.

[athanaric]

*Edit: I'll still make changes here over time. Realized that it's quite fun to play and write guides about it. I would be too technically stupid for LPs and besides that am not used to talking while playing. With guides, I can practice my writing a bit and hopefully share something valuable for other players. This is basically the only game I play, and I play it quite a lot so I think it can help. I don't want to replace existing guides, just provide an add-on with a more specific strategy.

Appreciate it, your approach is similar to mine. Added link to te OP (hopefully it's not becoming too confusing). If you want to write more content, you can also do so in further posts, however you see fit. I'll be adding the links (or a local moderator might, should I be too busy with RL).

This is why we reduced the number of javelins they carry, because originally they were outperforming RK MaA in a 1v1 fight. Is the consensus that they are still overpowered for their tier and cost? There are ways I can decrease their missile effectiveness without too much hassle.

Not sure, maybe the problem is exacerbated by "huge" unit sizes (though again, I played EB on huge, and there the issue wasn't that extreme. Although maybe it was overshadowed by the problem of invincible phalanx pikemen). Somebody would have to test it on the recommended settings.

[Wambat]

I fought battles as Harad against Far Harad's equivalent of Swordsmen of Harad (Swordsmen of Far Harad?). I did not find them overpowered, but my usual battlefield tactics involve not letting the enemy attack me, so I may not have had the best experience to judge from. I do feel that Harad needs some effective standard units so they are not just a pushover when it comes time to take them on in a campaign, so I kind of feel the Swordsmen of Harad are where they need to be at this point.

[CountMRVHS]

The Swords of Harad are definitely the most-feared unit I face when I fight against them (on Hard battle difficulty, Large unit sizes). Harad's higher-tier cavalry is probably actually more dangerous, but Harad tends to train lots of the Swords, so they're the unit you see the most.

The danger of the Swords is that they're a jack of all trades kind of unit. They're not super at any one thing, but they're so versatile they can be a threat in most any situation. Javelins, lots of men per unit, decent melee & defense. You can beat them in a melee grind as, say, the RK, but the javelins will hurt you on your way in and they can overwhelm with numbers if you're not careful. You can charge them with cav, but you might not break them fast enough. You can shoot them from afar (probably the best option - well, no, the BEST option is to play as the Dwarves and catapult their brains out), but again, there are enough men in the unit that you may have a hard time destroying all of them.

I should say the challenge of fighting against Harad (and the Swords in particular) is not so much in being able to beat them, but in being able to beat them without losing too many of your own men - because Harad is built to win wars of attrition.

The unit is sort of a microcosm of the faction itself: not experts at anything, but good enough at a lot of things to be dangerous to their foes.

[Dáin II]

Appreciate it, your approach is similar to mine. Added link to te OP (hopefully it's not becoming too confusing). If you want to write more content, you can also do so in further posts, however you see fit. I'll be adding the links (or a local moderator might, should I be too busy with RL).

Yeah, your guides definitely helped me. Thanks for that! I liked the structure of your Dale guide and kept mine similar.

As to continuing my writing...I have stuff written on different subjects, but it all lacks structure so far and in reality I'm supposed to write something else at the moment, so no clue when I'll add more. Continuing the Tharbad guide is not really that important anyway. Once that position as above is attained, any other challenges in the campaign should be very doable. I also haven't played on after taking Gondor, but the last position in the camaign was really cool. I gave the Dwarves all of Harad's coastal regions (Umbar and Harondor) to protect my trade. Harad, reluctant to fight the Dwarves still holds a corridor from the south to Ithilien where they are fighting Rohan. Definitely fun. But then I decided to screw Harad from the other side and started a Khand campaign, which in the end became three campaigns to try out different things. Thanks to Count for the excellent guide! Definitely also my favorite way to move towards Rhun first.

[Guedes]

So... no guides for dorwinion huh? Cant say i'm surprised.

IMO dorwinion is hands down one of the most difficult factions on the game, certainly the most difficult on the east side of the map and toe to toe with things like harondor for the most difficult faction of the game.

One would think that rhovanion is more difficult than dorwinion, but it really isnt. Yeah, dorwinion has a "strong" economy (for a 2 province minor) and a somewhat "better" unit roster to begin with... and thats it. Happens that those two points aint really that true (specially the second one, will explain later) and theres a lot of other points that rhovanion has it better compared to dorwinion.

Dorwinion geographical position is simple horrible. You are surrounded of enemies, pretty much all of them being stronger than you (except rhovanion) and dont have really much early game expansion alternatives except for that island settlement. You cant take the settlement on the right because its a pain to develop (its rhun, dont know why, should be dorwinion homeland imo, mods take a look at that), a pain to defend (no walls, the province border is a mess and you cant see the enemy stacks because they come around the forest) and will only drive heat from the hordes, specially north rhun faction that, otherwise, its fairly passive towards you, but if you take that settlement they will hate you deeply even though if you just leave it unconquered, they will shitt for it. You cant attack rhovanion either (at least not early game) because thats a guaranteed attack from dale; if you take the north settlement you will border them too much and they will attack you and you will be sandwiched. If you take the south settlement dale will also attack you because them you will have all the two settlement main objectives they need (dont know why the f the mods gave that settlement objective to dale, why dont switch to rhovanion capital as with dorwinion one? mods take a look at that) and you wont have the important defending point of the north rhovanion province which makes rhovanion fairly safe from dale early game if you play with them .

That island settlement wont help you very much on the early game too since its virtually almost non-developed and it has a population so you cant even use it for the manpower.

Rhovanion on the other hand has several early-game expansion alternatives (one of them being, guess what, dorwinion).

Your starting military is virtually non-existant too. You start with some good high value units but they are useless since you simply cant afford them, at least not if you want to have funds to develop and increase your military, each halberdier unit costs you 500 bucks, the watchs 450, i dont care how much you guys think dorwinion has a "strong" economy, you simply cant afford those upkeeps on the early game if you want to have a chance on the middle/late game. So the first thing you wanna do is disband those units and have to start from the scratch with low tier units. I would rather prefer start with low tier cheap units like rhovanion starts (mods take a look at that).

For the units roster; rhovanion at least has a decent cavalry unit. Dorwinion hasnt. Just that makes rhovanion roster better or, at least, toe-to-toe with dorwinion, given the importance of cavalry on this game. I would switch those overpriced halbediers for that cavalry unit any day. Also, the dorwinion bowmans are , they have double the upkeep from rhovanion hunters, come in less numbers, have less range and for what, better defenses? Who uses archers for melee anyways? The watchs are decent for their price, but they are just a crappy version from the ones of dale which can also throw javelins.

Theres other good things that rhovanion has that dorwinion hasnt, like that bonus on the map movement, which is HUGE for strategic purposes, but this post is too long by now so i will stop here.

Anyways, i can give some dorwinion tips if someone wants them, its hands down the faction i most play on this mod, most for the challenge of course.

[athanaric]

You are right (as far as I can tell; I vastly prefer playing Dale to any other faction in the region) about the strategic difficulties. Maybe Eryn Rhûn should be made a fiefdom province for Dorwinion specifically, given its immediate proximity to the main province. Speaking of fiefdoms, I find it strange that Thrimfeld (the province is called Southern Eaves IIRC) is an outland province for Rhovanion, but a homeland province for Dorwinion. Shouldn't it be the other way round?


Regarding cavalry, are you playing the newest version, where Dorwinion has cavalry bodyguards? They are not very good against other heavy cavalry, but they should be great against archers and useful for the usual cavalry duties. The Rhovanion Scouts (your light cavalry) are actually a pretty good unit, they just can't fill all tactical roles.
There is a discussion about Dorwinion units in this thread, feel free to contribute your experiences if you think we were missing something.

Your starting military is virtually non-existant too. You start with some good high value units but they are useless since you simply cant afford them, at least not if you want to have funds to develop and increase your military, each halberdier unit costs you 500 bucks, the watchs 450, i dont care how much you guys think dorwinion has a "strong" economy, you simply cant afford those upkeeps on the early game if you want to have a chance on the middle/late game.

What I meant when I wrote about Dorwinion's economy is not so much its starting situation as its potential. Dorwinion gets top tier farms and markets, and better ports (and IIRC a trade income bonus for markets that only one or two other factions get). Rhovanion and North Rhûn get none of these. You're right that the start is difficult, because most of these economic advantages rely on trade, and you can't get the tier 2 ports anywhere near your starting location.
The idea behind those starting units is that they can achieve a better kill ratio than your cheap units and thus help you to conserve manpower. Also, they're probably there as an incentive for the player, and for realism purposes.

For the units roster; rhovanion at least has a decent cavalry unit. Dorwinion hasnt. Just that makes rhovanion roster better or, at least, toe-to-toe with dorwinion, given the importance of cavalry on this game. I would switch those overpriced halbediers for that cavalry unit any day. [...]
Theres other good things that rhovanion has that dorwinion hasnt, like that bonus on the map movement, which is HUGE for strategic purposes, but this post is too long by now so i will stop here.

Both of these issues are mitigated by the bodyguard change (although of course, Rhovanion still has a cavalry advantage). The halberdiers can do things that cavalry would have huge difficulties with, such as dealing with Rhûn's chariots, or with the heavy infantry that Dale or the Dwarves might throw at you.

Anyways, i can give some dorwinion tips if someone wants them, its hands down the faction i most play on this mod, most for the challenge of course.

Sure, although IMO you should put them into a guide format with good structure, so as to improve legibility (and coherence with the other guides).

[CountMRVHS]

Thrimfeld is a homeland for Dorwinion? Yeah, that's probably not intended. I wouldn't mind seeing it as a fiefdom for both Dorwinion and Rhovanion, assuming that's an easy fix.

I've written most of a Dorwinion guide, but haven't finished it up yet - in part because we've recently made some changes to the Dorwinion (and AoR) rosters that I need to try out (and/or be implemented for testing).

Overall, though, yeah, Dorwinion is a difficult campaign: smallest starting faction on the map, lots of nearby neighbors. But I think it's not quite so bleak as the position other factions are in. Rhovanion, for example, suffers terribly from a lack of development at game start, plus long distances between its settlements. In contrast, Dorwinion begins with decent development and relatively easy reinforcement between its 2 homelands.

Conquering that independent settlement north of the Sea of Rhun is usually a bad idea for your first move. Eliminating rebel settlements is, as mentioned above, almost always followed by an attack from the AI factions. The exception here is Hithe, on the island. Nobody cares if you take it, so it is usually my first grab. True, it's small and undeveloped, but I've got enough money to get started on that project, and it's nice to have a staging ground for naval assaults.

Which brings me to my next general point: Rhun will be a major annoyance if you let it grow. So, hit them ASAP. In my last Dorwinion campaign, my Hithe army kept sailing east and sacked the unwalled settlement of Fennas-Rim before moving southeast to besiege Tham. That army was destroyed in a huge battle, but I was able to follow up pretty quickly with another army that took Tham and held it. It's possible to get Rhun to pay you for ceasefires early on in these wars, because if you leave that coastal rebel settlement alone, you won't share borders with them.

Another approach is to head in the opposite direction and take out Dale. Say goodbye to Dwarvish trade (and watch out for Dwarven emissaries who will try to bribe your towns and armies), but conquering Dale is hugely beneficial. If you go this route, though, you'll have to deal with a larger Rhun than you might like.

I think a lot of difficulty with the minor factions has to do with those crucial opening moves: which provinces you attack first, and when; who you decide to ally or war with. I usually like to 'turtle' with Dorwinion a little bit (apart from raids on Rhun, and even then my preference is to just trash their infrastructure and sign a ceasefire, unless I think I can pull off a coup like keeping Tham).

[Guedes]

You are right (as far as I can tell; I vastly prefer playing Dale to any other faction in the region) about the strategic difficulties. Maybe Eryn Rhûn should be made a fiefdom province for Dorwinion specifically, given its immediate proximity to the main province. Speaking of fiefdoms, I find it strange that Thrimfeld (the province is called Southern Eaves IIRC) is an outland province for Rhovanion, but a homeland province for Dorwinion. Shouldn't it be the other way round?


Regarding cavalry, are you playing the newest version, where Dorwinion has cavalry bodyguards? They are not very good against other heavy cavalry, but they should be great against archers and useful for the usual cavalry duties. The Rhovanion Scouts (your light cavalry) are actually a pretty good unit, they just can't fill all tactical roles.
There is a discussion about Dorwinion units in this thread, feel free to contribute your experiences if you think we were missing something.


What I meant when I wrote about Dorwinion's economy is not so much its starting situation as its potential. Dorwinion gets top tier farms and markets, and better ports (and IIRC a trade income bonus for markets that only one or two other factions get). Rhovanion and North Rhûn get none of these. You're right that the start is difficult, because most of these economic advantages rely on trade, and you can't get the tier 2 ports anywhere near your starting location.
The idea behind those starting units is that they can achieve a better kill ratio than your cheap units and thus help you to conserve manpower. Also, they're probably there as an incentive for the player, and for realism purposes.


Both of these issues are mitigated by the bodyguard change (although of course, Rhovanion still has a cavalry advantage). The halberdiers can do things that cavalry would have huge difficulties with, such as dealing with Rhûn's chariots, or with the heavy infantry that Dale or the Dwarves might throw at you.


Sure, although IMO you should put them into a guide format with good structure, so as to improve legibility (and coherence with the other guides).

Noble cavalry? Huh, i will have to update my game them. As for the thread you linked, i didnt read it all, but you want to nerf the only decent unit of one of the weakest faction on the game?

Might as well at least give some buffs to the archers and halbardiers at least. More attack to halbadiers would be great to reflect the offensiveness of the weapon, i really dont get how a guy holding basically a big ing axe can have the same attack stats as a guy holding a small axe. The archers are so bad that i dont have any idea how to balance them. All i know is they are a huge pile of crap as they are now.

Thrimfeld is a homeland for Dorwinion? Yeah, that's probably not intended. I wouldn't mind seeing it as a fiefdom for both Dorwinion and Rhovanion, assuming that's an easy fix.

I've written most of a Dorwinion guide, but haven't finished it up yet - in part because we've recently made some changes to the Dorwinion (and AoR) rosters that I need to try out (and/or be implemented for testing).

Overall, though, yeah, Dorwinion is a difficult campaign: smallest starting faction on the map, lots of nearby neighbors. But I think it's not quite so bleak as the position other factions are in. Rhovanion, for example, suffers terribly from a lack of development at game start, plus long distances between its settlements. In contrast, Dorwinion begins with decent development and relatively easy reinforcement between its 2 homelands.

Conquering that independent settlement north of the Sea of Rhun is usually a bad idea for your first move. Eliminating rebel settlements is, as mentioned above, almost always followed by an attack from the AI factions. The exception here is Hithe, on the island. Nobody cares if you take it, so it is usually my first grab. True, it's small and undeveloped, but I've got enough money to get started on that project, and it's nice to have a staging ground for naval assaults.

Which brings me to my next general point: Rhun will be a major annoyance if you let it grow. So, hit them ASAP. In my last Dorwinion campaign, my Hithe army kept sailing east and sacked the unwalled settlement of Fennas-Rim before moving southeast to besiege Tham. That army was destroyed in a huge battle, but I was able to follow up pretty quickly with another army that took Tham and held it. It's possible to get Rhun to pay you for ceasefires early on in these wars, because if you leave that coastal rebel settlement alone, you won't share borders with them.

Another approach is to head in the opposite direction and take out Dale. Say goodbye to Dwarvish trade (and watch out for Dwarven emissaries who will try to bribe your towns and armies), but conquering Dale is hugely beneficial. If you go this route, though, you'll have to deal with a larger Rhun than you might like.

I think a lot of difficulty with the minor factions has to do with those crucial opening moves: which provinces you attack first, and when; who you decide to ally or war with. I usually like to 'turtle' with Dorwinion a little bit (apart from raids on Rhun, and even then my preference is to just trash their infrastructure and sign a ceasefire, unless I think I can pull off a coup like keeping Tham).

Yep, thats what i do, develop and sack the rhun chiefs until get strong enough to actually start conquering something, preferable dale since rhovanion aint really worth the sweat and the 2 front war with dale.

Rhovanion campaign is a walk on the park compared to dorwinion for me though. Half a stack on the bridge to keep away the heat from dale and you are safe, just conquer belegant and, voua-la, you basically have the same start from dorwinion but better because now you have all rhovanion with you.

[athanaric]

Noble cavalry? Huh, i will have to update my game them. As for the thread you linked, i didnt read it all, but you want to nerf the only decent unit of one of the weakest faction on the game?

Well, more of a change than a nerf, but I've explained it at length over there.

Might as well at least give some buffs to the archers and halbardiers at least. More attack to halbadiers would be great to reflect the offensiveness of the weapon, i really dont get how a guy holding basically a big ing axe can have the same attack stats as a guy holding a small axe. The archers are so bad that i dont have any idea how to balance them. All i know is they are a huge pile of crap as they are now.

Well, a halberd isn't exactly an axe, but I've actually found the unit to be quite useful (playing as Dale, not Dorwinion, though). The AP attribute actually makes a huge difference and hence, they cannot really be compared to the Rhovanion Axemen. They're more of a compromise between spearmen and (Dale) hearthmen. AFAIK the Dorwinion Bowmen were buffed in the latest release (3.2), and there is talk of buffing the Dorwinion Men at Arms in the next one.
What battle difficulty are you playing on, anyway?

[CountMRVHS]

The archers are so bad that i dont have any idea how to balance them. All i know is they are a huge pile of crap as they are now.

The Dorwinion Bowmen? They're meant to be a hybrid unit, as you stated in your earlier post. The increased defense (and smaller unit size) reflects the Dunedanic heritage angle we were going for. And they are useful, but they're not an "upgrade" intended to replace the earlier Rhovanion Hunters.

Dorwinion, like most of the minor factions, must rely on its whole roster for the entire game. Even when you can train Dorwinion Men at Arms and Halberdiers, you'll still find a use for the Dorwinion Watch and even the Axemen (as flankers and second-line troops that don't cost too much).

So regarding the archers, my ideal late-game army composition for Dorwinion still makes use of several units of Rhovanion Hunters as my main, cheap, go-to archers. I'd use 2 to maybe 4 units of the Dorwinion Bowmen as second-rank archers - set them up a little behind the main line and near the flanks, so they can rush in to melee as needed. The use of the unit is in its versatility (similar to the Archers of Khand). They also do well in siege defenses, as they are able to shoot down advancing assaulters and also fight them off hand-to-hand after the latter are exhausted from climbing the walls or rushing through the city and thinned out by the arrows.

I also have to say, "huge pile of crap" is not only hyperbolic but rather insulting. I'm sure you didn't intend it as such, but I thought I'd point it out

[Wambat]

@ Guedes:

One thing to keep in mind when critiquing units is that the AI needs units too, to make the game enjoyable for the player. While a human, who is good at safeguarding his units, might prefer to recruit all glass cannon ranged units, having units like the Dorwinion Bowmen in the roster gives the AI a unit it can more easily use to good effect, or which is, at least, more likely to take out some of the player's troops with it. Humans can play a max/min game very effectively, but the AI provides a better challenge if they are a permitted a wider range of units.

[Guedes]

Well, more of a change than a nerf, but I've explained it at length over there.


Well, a halberd isn't exactly an axe, but I've actually found the unit to be quite useful (playing as Dale, not Dorwinion, though). The AP attribute actually makes a huge difference and hence, they cannot really be compared to the Rhovanion Axemen. They're more of a compromise between spearmen and (Dale) hearthmen. AFAIK the Dorwinion Bowmen were buffed in the latest release (3.2), and there is talk of buffing the Dorwinion Men at Arms in the next one.
What battle difficulty are you playing on, anyway?

You say removing the ap from the watchs isnt a nerf and than proceeds to say that the ap on halbediers makes a huge difference... please enlighten me.


I always play on recommended settings.

The Dorwinion Bowmen? They're meant to be a hybrid unit, as you stated in your earlier post. The increased defense (and smaller unit size) reflects the Dunedanic heritage angle we were going for. And they are useful, but they're not an "upgrade" intended to replace the earlier Rhovanion Hunters.

Dorwinion, like most of the minor factions, must rely on its whole roster for the entire game. Even when you can train Dorwinion Men at Arms and Halberdiers, you'll still find a use for the Dorwinion Watch and even the Axemen (as flankers and second-line troops that don't cost too much).

So regarding the archers, my ideal late-game army composition for Dorwinion still makes use of several units of Rhovanion Hunters as my main, cheap, go-to archers. I'd use 2 to maybe 4 units of the Dorwinion Bowmen as second-rank archers - set them up a little behind the main line and near the flanks, so they can rush in to melee as needed. The use of the unit is in its versatility (similar to the Archers of Khand). They also do well in siege defenses, as they are able to shoot down advancing assaulters and also fight them off hand-to-hand after the latter are exhausted from climbing the walls or rushing through the city and thinned out by the arrows.

I also have to say, "huge pile of crap" is not only hyperbolic but rather insulting. I'm sure you didn't intend it as such, but I thought I'd point it out

Dont get me wrong but they are a bad unit and shouldnt be used on any case. For each situation you pointed out you use them, there are better cost-effective units available. And even though, if you want a package with something that can shoot, maneuver and can still handle its toe on melee, you should be looking for skirmishers, not archers. I get the idea behind the unit, but it simply dont work. Well, at least not at this cost. I could use them if they were cheaper.

That being said, on the late game when you are running around spanking the AI with full stacks and 100k on the bank, 2 or 3 crappy units in there wont make you any harm. Still doesnt make them good units and on early/middle game 2 hunters units (or even one hunter + one forester are roughly the same price) instead of one crappy dorwinion archer unit against bigger numbers hordes can be decisive on battles.

@ Guedes:

One thing to keep in mind when critiquing units is that the AI needs units too, to make the game enjoyable for the player. While a human, who is good at safeguarding his units, might prefer to recruit all glass cannon ranged units, having units like the Dorwinion Bowmen in the roster gives the AI a unit it can more easily use to good effect, or which is, at least, more likely to take out some of the player's troops with it. Humans can play a max/min game very effectively, but the AI provides a better challenge if they are a permitted a wider range of units.

You may have a point in general, however i dont think it applies in here, precisely because the AI generally do use its archers as glass cannons (as it should, indeed). They keep them behind the lines, protect it with calvary when needed, hit your unprotected units and even try to trade with your archers sometimes when they have the upper hand. Giving them a crappy unit like those dorwinion archers will only make them throw resources out of the window as the player will just hit them down with more quantity of better cost-effective archer units; they would have been better with more units of hunters or whatever other more cost-effective units which are actually designed to be archers and used as archers and not pseudo skirmishers.

[athanaric]

You say removing the ap from the watchs isnt a nerf and than proceeds to say that the ap on halbediers makes a huge difference... please enlighten me.

They'd receive a defence skill buff in return. But I've laid out the argument in the other thread and don't want to repeat it here.
I think you should try out 3.2 and see how you fare with Dorwinion units (particularly the archers) there, or wait a few months for 3.3 if that fits your schedule better.

I always play on recommended settings.

I was asking because most people who complain about weak infantry play on max difficulty for some reason.

[CountMRVHS]

Another point in favor of the Dorwinion Bowmen (though it seems like your mind is made up, Guedes) is the small unit size. While in battle that can indeed be a liability, in a campaign where population is rather important, having a unit that is tougher and doesn't drain your population quite so much is actually a good thing.

I also think Wambat's point is a good one. While in general the AI does attempt to protect its archers, giving it a melee-competent archer unit does help it out on those occasions when it fails to do so.

Regarding the other changes to Dorwinion's roster, you'll just have to see them in practice. I've played a bit with the new Dorwinion Watch and Men-at-Arms, and I think you'll find the faction's roster has a logical progression now while still being very competitive in the region. Even without AP, the Watch are strong units.


I'm curious if anyone has played North Rhun to completion (or at least to the point where victory is all but assured). In my view, North Rhun is harder than Dorwinion, and may be the hardest faction in DoM. Previously, I had thought Harondor, Rhovanion, or maybe Far Harad was more difficult - but those factions all have plenty of neighbors that share their culture, making expansion easier and more profitable. North Rhun is quite poor, and their units aren't as cheap as, say, the Beornings' or Dunland's. All your neighbors are either aggressive or formidable, and to make it worse the distances between your settlements mean it's difficult to shunt troops from border to border if you end up in a 2-front war (which is likely). Your most likely early target, Dorwinion, has some very strong units; Dale has both a strong roster and the resources to train large armies; Rhun's roster is like yours but with extra goodies, and they can outproduce you.