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Thread: 17th Century Illustrations of Hungarians

  1. #21
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: 17th Century Illustrations of Hungarians

    "True representation and depiction of his highness1, the high-born prince and lord, Sir Bethlehem Gabor, Prince in Siebenbürgen2, together with a conversation between the latter and the religion3 - including the common estates of the country4 devoted to it - regarding the current war affairs."

    1 literally Durchleuchtig means Enlightened or Light-imbued. It was used as an address for high aristocrats in German.
    2 Siebenbürgen = Transsylvania in English
    3 "the religion" probably refers to Protestantism
    4 Landstände = Estates of the Country, an administrative structure specific to the German and German-influenced lands in central and eastern Europe. Basically they are representatives of the important local entities such as cities, towns, gentry, patricians, monasteries, etc. The common estates would then have been just the non-noble, non-clerical part of this.
    Last edited by Iskar; November 05, 2015 at 05:24 AM.
    "Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi
    "Du musst die Sterne und den Mond enthaupten, und am besten auch den Zar. Die Gestirne werden sich behaupten, aber wahrscheinlich nicht der Zar." - Einstürzende Neubauten, Weil, Weil, Weil

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  2. #22
    Aru's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: 17th Century Illustrations of Hungarians

    That's odd, the guy name is Bethlem, not Bethlehem. I wonder if this was a mistake of author or he intentionally used Betlehem for religious association.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel_Bethlen

    Also look at the various peasants tools and improvised weapons in the background. I wouldn't want to find myself in the way of that rabble.
    Last edited by Aru; November 05, 2015 at 01:43 PM.
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  3. #23
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: 17th Century Illustrations of Hungarians

    Since it depicts him trying to win over the protestant peasantry for his upcoming campaign against Habsburg it is likely that religious associations of his name were intended to raise support. The peasant weapons in the background probably told illierate viewers who the people were the prince was meeting.
    "Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi
    "Du musst die Sterne und den Mond enthaupten, und am besten auch den Zar. Die Gestirne werden sich behaupten, aber wahrscheinlich nicht der Zar." - Einstürzende Neubauten, Weil, Weil, Weil

    On an eternal crusade for reason, logics, catholicism and chocolate. Mostly chocolate, though.

    I can heartily recommend the Italian Wars mod by Aneirin.
    In exile, but still under the patronage of the impeccable Aikanár, alongside Aneirin. Humble patron of Cyclops, Frunk and Abdülmecid I.

  4. #24

    Icon3 Re: 17th Century Illustrations of Hungarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    "True representation and depiction of his highness1, the high-born prince and lord, Sir Bethlehem Gabor, Prince in Siebenbürgen2, together with a conversation between the latter and the religion3 - including the common estates of the country4 devoted to it - regarding the current war affairs."

    1 literally Durchleuchtig means Enlightened or Light-imbued. It was used as an address for high aristocrats in German.
    2 Siebenbürgen = Transsylvania in English
    3 "the religion" probably refers to Protestantism
    4 Landstände = Estates of the Country, an administrative structure specific to the German and German-influenced lands in central and eastern Europe. Basically they are representatives of the important local entities such as cities, towns, gentry, patricians, monasteries, etc. The common estates would then have been just the non-noble, non-clerical part of this.
    Thanks Iskar, and footnotes too!


    Regarding Nikola Zrinski by Jacob von Sandrart, does anyone have any dating information for this? It would be after 1656 when Sandrart moved to Nuremberg, but it could be as late as 1708. There isn't anything obvious to me at the University of Heidelberg site.

    Druzhina345
    Illustrations of Hungarian Costume & Soldiers

  5. #25
    Aru's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: 17th Century Illustrations of Hungarians

    Ok, I looked through several sources of that drawing, including some Hungarian book on Zrinskis and page of museum of Koprivnica, and they all say is't from 1663/64.
    I also found this book

    http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/fwh...f9c1f148cc7212

    The drawing is at page 337.

    But I can't figure out is the original or a copy/collection made later.
    Last edited by Aru; November 09, 2015 at 09:19 AM.
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  6. #26

    Default Re: 17th Century Illustrations of Hungarians

    Thanks Aru, 1663/64 it is.
    Yes, that is the book at Heidelberg Uni I linked to. It does not give much information.

    The other portrait of Nikola VII Zrinski, by Johann Franz Hoffmann (1699-1766), is 18th century.

    Druzhina345
    18th Century Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers
    Last edited by druzhina345; July 29, 2018 at 12:15 AM.

  7. #27
    Aru's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: 17th Century Illustrations of Hungarians

    How silly of me, of course it's not original, the original is a cooper engraving and various books used them.

    The link to the other one isn't working. Is it the nice coloured one?
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  8. #28

    Default Re: 17th Century Illustrations of Hungarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Aru View Post
    How silly of me, of course it's not original, the original is a cooper engraving and various books used them.

    The link to the other one isn't working. Is it the nice coloured one?
    The link is working for me. No, not coloured, it is from your 1st link for Nikola VII Zrinski

    Druzhina345
    Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers
    Last edited by druzhina345; January 05, 2018 at 10:20 PM.

  9. #29
    Aru's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: 17th Century Illustrations of Hungarians

    It's working now. Yeah, that's work of Johann Franz Hoffmann.
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