Silvan Elves Campaign - some observations

[Joseignacio]

Thanks for the advice. I was assuming the flame arrows not only decreased morale but, in spite of a low rate of fire, they had a stronger hit, that's why I used them. Then, I am wrong, am I not?

[Flinn]

afaik fire arrows act better vs armored troops, although I don't know the precise numbers

[Ngugi]

IIRC fire arrows, from a pure damage perspective, were superior at a range, but then normal arrows prevail due to speed of attack.Withwnar did the tests back in the day: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...nd-Stats-(3-1)

[julianj99]

I go away for a bit and you all start talking behind my back . Interesting debate. I agree that arrows damage but don't destroy trolls.

The campaign further in brief. I nearly conquered Mordor but had a bad case of Imperial Overstretch (are you listening Pentagon?). My best General captured Barad Dur, but couldn't leave because public order went down to 65%, so I spent about 15 turns holding on to what I had before I could bring enough reinforcements to finish off the Black Land. Won the game, T189.

I decided to continue, and rid the land of all the bad guys. Dale (AI) seems to be doing well against Rhun! I've sent an army to help but mainly I am attacking Harad, I've got 3 full stacks on land going southwards and an amphibious task force has taken Goben Telfalas island and is about to siege another port town on the mainland. Harad forces are quite tough as they have cavalry. Flaming Ballista bolts do seem effective against the Mumakil, who otherwise can wander around in a torrent of arrows like it is light rain! It is amusing to see them stomp their own troops as they run amok.

[eugenioso]

A few volleys of fire arrows can do that too.

[Joseignacio]

Yesterday my archers decimated easily a group of cave or mountain trolls (not olog-hai) with flame arrows, I guess this may have to do with the shooters quality, I mean, I don't know how this works, but if you need to make a hit over a certain level to damage and finally kill a troll, and the unit is low tier, maybe it can keep on pounding and pounding and never get a hit strong enough; however, a much stronger unit may hit all the shots and destroy the trolls quickly...

Makes sense to those who know the insides of the game?

[regnak999]

Yesterday my archers decimated easily a group of cave or mountain trolls (not olog-hai) with flame arrows, I guess this may have to do with the shooters quality, I mean, I don't know how this works, but if you need to make a hit over a certain level to damage and finally kill a troll, and the unit is low tier, maybe it can keep on pounding and pounding and never get a hit strong enough; however, a much stronger unit may hit all the shots and destroy the trolls quickly...

Makes sense to those who know the insides of the game?

From the link Nugui posted to Withwar's thread:


Neither arrow does particularly well against heavily armored targets, though ultimately flaming arrows will inflict about 25% more casualties than non-flaming arrows.


So yes always use flaming arrows against Trolls unless it is raining.

[Joseignacio]

Thanks, I read that thread and IIRW the results were not so clear, but mainly I guess you are right, that's what I thought.

Now I was thinking on wether you need to hit upon a certain threshold to be able to damage an armored unit. I wonder how armor and defense values work...

[ThorHa]

Now I was thinking on wether you need to hit upon a certain threshold to be able to damage an armored unit. I wonder how armor and defense values work...

Defense value does not count against arrows. That is the reason Elite (or Elven) archers are - very - effective against trolls, which main defense value is defensive skill. If you concentrate fire from 2 units or more normally the troll unit is at least down to 20% strength when arriving at your forward forces. As a dedicated Elven player I don´t consider trolls a real threat any more, I do respect wargs and troll catapults however (for different reasons). If you get access to armour breaking archers (like the Dunedain in MOS), even better.

Regards,
Thorsten

[Joseignacio]

Thanks for that.

True, wargs have faced up to three of my elf leader cavalries for a time, finally withdrawing (coming back later), escaping in panic or dying but leaving my heavy cavs seriously touched. Pikemen are not so easy to get and replace for elves, ...

And the troll catapults are weaker trolls for melee (or such is my experience) but their shooting rate and effectivity is amazing.

Anyway, I usually try to neutralize wargs with cavs and let the catapults shoot, while I engage and shoot them with archers. Since I usually destroy the orcs early in the game they don't use to have huge amounts of those units. Another matter is Mordor and the hordes of Olog-hai and others... cause when I reach the game is more advanced in time (except for Dol Guldur, whis usually I take early too with the silvans.

[ThorHa]

Yeah, the Elven archers never cease to surprise me. I just won a battle at Mountain Fort against the Orcs of Misty Mountains with an army of 1.250 against no less than roughly 6.000, among them 2 mountain trolls and 4 warg riders. Own losses 250, enemy losses 5.700 (or 3 stacks without any surviving units) and my archers still had ammo left :-).

Edit: It is astonishing enough - I basically only needed one 13 unit stack with very few occasional replacements (more exchanges - badly diminished units to home base) to conquer the whole OOTM between Moria and Goblin City in 20 turns. Beat and sieged something like 15.000 units in between, the stack was regarded powerful enough by the AI that Morias garrison (yes, with garrison script, including Balrog) never sallied.

Regards,
Thorsten

[julianj99]

@ Thorsten. Wow! Do Elves have laurel wreaths? I think you deserve one for that campaign.

BTW, what was your army composition?

[julianj99]

The Silvan Elves Triumphant - Middle Earth United Under Benign Hegemony!

Elven regions from Ruskia Vene to Vavatea

Haircare and moisturising products available realm-wide


I haven't been able to play much recently (work). Back now! After I had destroyed Mordor I decided that I would knock out all the evildoers. I attacked Harad, with my allies Gonder. After a long series of battles I subdued them. I found that withtheir effective archers and excellent cavalry the victories were bloodier for the Elves than fighting orcs. Not to mention the Mumakil, although ballistas can kill them. When I had access to the sea, I went a-sea roving. I really enjoyed the mobility and was harrying the Harad coastline and islands. If my army got in danger, it would be back on the boats and off to find weaker prey, Viking style. I sacked Umbar, which was weakly garrisoned. I tore down everything I could for the money then bogged off= 50K worth of gold!

At the end I let Harad become a vassal. I could have destroyed its last city (Umbar again), but I had got bored and quite frankly, it's in need of serious restoration, and I couldn't be bothered. Anybody want a used city, two very careless owners?

So there was only Isengard left. The good guys started fighting amongst themselves! That really p*ssed me off. I stayed allied with Gondor as I thought they were potentially the biggest threat, and sent a stack to Isengard. Unfortunately there was gridlock of Rohan armies in front of Isengard, doing nothing. So I couldn't get in an attack. The Ents arrived and I saw an opportunity, so I barreled in to fight 600 + 3500 Isengarders with 1973 Elves inc 20 Ents. I attacked aggressively to destroy the 600 before the bigger army could arrive, and ended up on their position, not quite on a ridge as I intended. The Ents took 5 casualties from heavy crossbow fire - I made a split second decision to attack with them, even though my cavalry support were out of position. I had a battle line of close combat troops (inc heavy swords/spears) with a second line of archers, so I let the orcs come on. Things went horribly wrong. I thought I would be able to overwhelm one flank and lap round, but I guess there were too many orcs (2.3 to 1 at this point in the battle? I've faced much bigger odds). Basically it was attrition and they had more men. The ents routed. At that point I should have cut my losses and ran. But I didn't think that was Tolkien canon.

I lost 1779 men. Orcs casualties about 1100. What went wrong? I'm not sure. My forces were inexperienced, a 4 star general. The orcs had a lot of chevrons. After I had destroyed the first force, I could have pulled back to my original deployment, to maximise my archery, but battlefield retreats in TW are tricky when troops get out of place. I had stopped my forces pursuing and so they were in a cohesive battle-line that only needed tweaking as the main orc force came on. I don't really know what I should have done better.

I had to create 30 new units and send them to Isengard. Meanwhile I was paying off Rohan (now neutral) to ensure they would not attack me. Rohan and Eriador were at war, and Gondor declared on Rohan. Dear me!

I had to sort-of edge my new army towards Isengard through the milling Rohan and Eriador forces, paying them off so they wouldn't attack me. (I know they probably wouldn't anyway, but I was rolling in money and didn't want to take the chance. I paid out shedloads of money 100K at least). Different battle field, similarish orc army + reinforcements (though smaller from previous pounding). It didn't attack as aggressively, trying to get uphill but my archers chased it on skirmish orders and gave it a bit of welly. (= a kicking). Only one reinforcing unit entered the battlefield and chose a diagonal line of march across my front. How does the song go? "There weren't as many of them as there were a moment ago."

The main army charged me and there was a confused melee in woods (not my favourite battle location). The Elves won, and I shot pretty much all the routers. Adios Isengard!

Overall result:
SE End Turn 275

SE No 1 in everything except mil No 2 (99%, Dale)
40K GP in bank. 50 regions
Income 83000 Exp 80000 (though I haven't been paying much attention to finances for a while. I am sure I could do better, but didn't need to)
Battles won 217, Battles lost 24.

I enjoyed the latter stages of the game more than grinding down Mordor. I think that the major early strategic decision to get Dol Guldur at all costs was the correct one.

I hope you have found this thread interesting, and thanks to everyone who contributed.

[ThorHa]

@ Thorsten. Wow! Do Elves have laurel wreaths? I think you deserve one for that campaign.

BTW, what was your army composition?

No, battle wise I am still your average guy, I just can handle archers better than most due to me being a defensive attacker by nature :-).

The stack that roamed the Misty Mountains was 1 general, 1 Noretino cavalry, 2 catapults (essential!), 4 Noretino arches, 2 Dunedain archers (MOS only, plus/minus the same stats as the Noretinons but armour breaking), 2 Bow Quendi and 1 Sword Quendi. If anyone notices the near absence of close combat abilities - yes, that one works as intended. I let the Elven archers handle such situations where unavoidable.

Regards,
Thorsten

[DrDragun]

The Silvan Elves Triumphant - Middle Earth United Under Benign Hegemony!

Elven regions from Ruskia Vene to Vavatea

Haircare and moisturising products available realm-wide

Haha, nice writeup and fun thread.