What should a proper cavalry charge look like?

[Bust Nak]

In the typical movie depiction of a cavalry charge against mass infantry, the infantry just break and run, with large corridors suddenly appearing for the rider to kill the routers as they ride pass (I am thinking of LotR here.) As I understand it, cavalry do not charge home when the infantry does not break, and if they do break, large gaps don't suddenly appear for the horses to ride through.

So what would a proper cavalry charge look like? What should a proper cavalry charge look like if it hit an unbroken block of men, presumably a mass of injured horses and crushed men, taking both units out of the battle?

And in the context of total war, what would be the idea behavior of a cavalry unit charging into an infantry unit (both unbroken one and one that routs as the riders approaches?) A large moral penalty on the target during the approach, and the charge order canceling itself if the infantry does not break?

[Aquila_Mars]

There is more to this than just the cavalry, it depends on the kind of infantry they are charging into. A unit of extremely heavily armored infantry will probably have its front ranks knocked down and trampled, but if the unit is disciplined enough, the back ranks will counter and not let the horses go any further. If it is a very lightly armored and undisciplined unit that doesn't hold its formation, than the cavalry is more than likely going to go right through them.

Now, I've ridden a horse before, I can easily imagine an armored horse charging headfirst into a human and knocking them back quite a distance(not too much though). But an armored human is a different matter, may knock him off his feet, but doubt it'll make them go any distance.
But that is a one on one scenario.

On a larger scale, anybody's guess is as good as mine.

[RGA]

It's a chicken game and the cavalrymen and the infantry soldiers are smart enough to know that the crash would likely kill or seriously injure both. Now is only the question of who's gonna duck first. If the infantrymen hold their nerves, the cavalry, seeing no gap to exploit, will circle back and try again. It's not rare to see description of cavalry charge against infantry as waves after waves of the sea smashing to the stones.

It can be quite time consuming. At Waterloo, the French cavalry charged the Britsh squares for almost 2 hours without breaking even one. And yet they tried and tried and tried again.

[Humble Warrior]

A successful charge that hit men would run them down and break their (infantry) formation into disarray. Not many cavalry would be hurt.

An unsuccessful charge would often, like RGA, says, have them aborting and going around or even crashing into the Men and getting tied up to be slaughtered. I know there are historical accounts that described some successful and unsucessful charges in battle.

[Lionheart11]

It's a chicken game and the cavalrymen and the infantry soldiers are smart enough to know that the crash would likely kill or seriously injure both. Now is only the question of who's gonna duck first. If the infantrymen hold their nerves, the cavalry, seeing no gap to exploit, will circle back and try again. It's not rare to see description of cavalry charge against infantry as waves after waves of the sea smashing to the stones.

It can be quite time consuming. At Waterloo, the French cavalry charged the Britsh squares for almost 2 hours without breaking even one. And yet they tried and tried and tried again.

I think you mean skirmish after they break but a horse charge is some seriously powerful thing, take a 350kg or more charging horse full of muscle and armour, add a 100 kg rider 10ft high and that's half a ton at 65kph, one horse could take out over 5 men in one charge I would think, anything up to 5 ranks could be smashed.

[Bust Nak]

A successful charge that hit men would run them down and break their (infantry) formation into disarray. Not many cavalry would be hurt.

An unsuccessful charge would often, like RGA, says, have them aborting and going around or even crashing into the Men and getting tied up to be slaughtered. I know there are historical accounts that described some successful and unsucessful charges in battle.

What is it that makes the difference between successful and unsuccessful charge then? You seems to be saying a cavalry unit can breaks up a formation by charging home, but I was under the impression that cavalry would only charge into a formation that is already in disarray, as charging a formed up block would seriously injure both sides.

[Humble Warrior]

What is it that makes the difference between successful and unsuccessful charge then? You seems to be saying a cavalry unit can breaks up a formation by charging home, but I was under the impression that cavalry would only charge into a formation that is already in disarray, as charging a formed up block would seriously injure both sides.

It all depends on the cohesive, readiness and the equipment of the infantry formatiom.
If the infantry formation is struck from the back or sides (flanks) then no amount of readiness will stop them being overrun by a cavalry charge.
However, if the infantry formation is ready to brace AND has effective weapons to do so (like spears) horses will likely stop short. If they stop short close enough, like you see in Olympic horse jumping, they could throw their riders or even be impaled by spears themselves.

It really does pay to hold your ground as an infantry formation and FACE the cavalry.

[RGA]

It really does pay to hold your ground as an infantry formation and FACE the cavalry.

Easier said than done

[Humble Warrior]

Easier said than done

Well exactly. This brings to the next aspect such as morale which has been one of my favourite parts of a TW game. No amount of armour or weapons will help if the Men`s morale is really low. Does the defending infantry have the morale (courage) to stand that is greater than their fear of a wall of horses approaching them at the gallop? In cases like this even peasants could win if their morale is high enough and enemy morale low enough. There are a lot of things to consider in a battle. There is no one guarantee.

Of course a good General will get to know his Men, train them, increase their morale and give them decent weapons for the job to increase the chances of his Men not routing. The same could be said from the cavalry side as well.

[ayylmango]

The typical cavalry charge you see in a TW game almost never happened, because a cavalryman isn't stupid enough to actually charge into a block of men who will quickly kill his horse. There's a lot of skirmishing and poking around and almost never do the rides just slam into a formation.

[Bust Nak]

Don't forget the other part of my OP, how should TW best represent a proper cavalry charge?

[RGA]

Don't forget the other part of my OP, how should TW best represent a proper cavalry charge?

Would I disappoint you if I say that with the current system, there is no way cavalry charge could be properly depicted? Hell, even Hollywood often fails to do this

[D@gget]

Don't forget the other part of my OP, how should TW best represent a proper cavalry charge?

I could say the way Medieval II or Rome I did, but then I couldn't keep a straight face. Not that you can see it, anyway.

[Fanest]

go play Mount and Blade Warband - Napoleonic DLC there if u play in a regiment you can see how a cav fight would look like (not exactly but very close), eventually it involves alot of maneuvering, fake attacks and other moves which take alot of space and whole fight is therefore very dynamic. Specific battle formations (wedge, diamond) are very very hard to implement even with players who play it every day. However if such a formation is made it usually brakes on contact because usually the opponent makes way for your formation and then encircles you and attacks your vulnerable spots, but eventually it all depends on the kind of cav ur facing and what cav type you are. Lances are in general one of the best weapons for dealing with enemy cav.

[KAM 2150]

Like in the thread, depends on cavalry and infantry, also on the era. Cavalry charge in ancient times would not even resemble charge of late XVI cavalry. Well, the best example of cavalry charge effectiveness are exploits of Winged Hussars, each charge was meant to be a direct hit into enemy line, if line held, they would simply fall back, take another 4.5m-5.5m lance, charge again, until enemy will rout. In the passings it was stated that you were not worthy to be a Winged Hussars if you weren't able to impale at least 3 people on the lance during single charge. Length of the lance, fire tested armour and general weakness of XVII firearms allowed for them to rout pike and musket squares on many occasions. Swedish army got the idea to simply build field forticifations against them so horses were simply not able to go past them, although at Klushino some Hussars charged their horses through stakes and fences to make place for other riders. Still, for single Winged Hussars you could hire entire large squad of musketeers and pikemen and sometimes quantity is more important

[Aeratus]

In movies, cavalry charge is one big KO blow (such that you would even charge with your entire army, like in LOTR movies). But in actual battle, there will be repeated charges, for several hours. One wave after another wave, if the earlier wave does not succeed in breaking the enemy formation.

At Marignano, the French cavalry charged the swiss pikemen 30 times, according to accounts. The battle took so long that it went well into moonlight.

I think you mean skirmish after they break but a horse charge is some seriously powerful thing, take a 350kg or more charging horse full of muscle and armour, add a 100 kg rider 10ft high and that's half a ton at 65kph, one horse could take out over 5 men in one charge I would think, anything up to 5 ranks could be smashed.

A horse is not a machine and will not run headfirst into a wall. So if the the cavalry is past spearpoint distance and the horses do not see a clearance ahead of them, then the horses will purposely slow down and lose momentum. This is the reason why cavalry carried long spears.

Roman legions, at their height of discipline, were very difficult to break using eastern cataphracts. The rise of cataphracts in Roman armies coincided with a decline in the discipline of their infantry.

[Charerg]

I'd say the rise of Cataphracts in the Roman army was more of an effect of their forces becoming more of a "combined arms" style army. This was a gradual process, there's actually evidence (Dura Europos) of Roman Cataphracts from well before the late Roman era. Another factor would be the increase in raiding-style warfare along the borders, emphasizing mobility. Although Cataphracts were probably always a clear minority among Roman cavalry.

As to cavalry charges, it does indeed appear to have been pretty rare that horses would actually "trample" infantry formations. Most cavalry charges seem to consist of the cavalry charging an infatry unit shouting their warcries loudly and hoping to break them. If the infantry hold, the cavalry exchange a few blows with them before retreating to reform (behind their own infantry, usually).

In the medieval era, I think usually the aim was to break through the infantry formation and then reform behind them for a follow-up charge. At least that's the impression I have from what I've read on the subject.

[Cesco]

It's a chicken game and the cavalrymen and the infantry soldiers are smart enough to know that the crash would likely kill or seriously injure both. Now is only the question of who's gonna duck first. If the infantrymen hold their nerves, the cavalry, seeing no gap to exploit, will circle back and try again. It's not rare to see description of cavalry charge against infantry as waves after waves of the sea smashing to the stones.

It can be quite time consuming. At Waterloo, the French cavalry charged the Britsh squares for almost 2 hours without breaking even one. And yet they tried and tried and tried again.

exactly: let's keep in mind that as a cavalryman you don't want your horse to straight impact on the enemy's shield, since the impact would kill both the infantryman and the cavalryman...and maybe the horse.

[Osbot]

The rise of cavalry in non-steppe cultures is directly attributable to the decline of nations and states capable of fielding drilled professional infantry.

It is a reinforcing concept. Cavalry excels versus undisciplined infantry, but in addition to this, owning horses became a symbol of wealth and status, so martial importance was derived through horsemanship.

In reality, cavalry was never an effective shock force versus disciplined infantry. Inb4polishhussars. It's an issue of survival and cost benefit. Charging heavily armored and trained cavalry into a block of infantry would certainly cause massive casualties, but the casualties would be on both sides. Most rider would be dismounted in the chaos and you just wasted a highly trained, mobile force that require a lifetime of training, for killing a bunch of guys you can train to stand in tight ranks in a few months.

The real value of cavalry, has always been skirmishing and riding down disorganized forces. The shock value of cavalry, was the shock of seeing cavalry behind you in a confusing chaotic battle where cavalry behind you probably means the battle has been lost.

[haikiller11]

I remember reading somewhere that thr Persian kontos can impale 2 Romans. They definitely need the lance/spear to cause damage. Same story with Alexander and the Mongol, their shock cavs were armed with long lance so that their cav could outreach the enemies. Also worth noting is that in the battle of Hasting, Norman knights repeatedly charged the Anglo-Saxon shieldwall for hours but failed to break the line. If those charges were in lotr style then i doubt if they could even win the battle. Another worth noting fact from history is the fact that the cav lance evolved along the evolution of body armour. From the kontos vs Roman chainmail to crusader era lance vs heavy chainmail to the massive late middle age lance vs plate armour. Who needs a lance when a dozen of riders can charge and crush hundreds of orcs with ease????My 2 cent.