Should we let people become disabled as a lifestyle choice?

[Enros]

There are an entire community of people who want to be disabled. They call themselves transabled. Psychiatrists diagnose them with something called body integrity disorder. You'll notice that sounds like what transexuals used to be diagnosed with, gender identity disorder. "Transabled" is playing off the success of transexuals in getting acceptance. Here's an article about people cutting off their own limbs and gouging out their ears to become disabled.

Just recently this woman paid a psychologist to blind her, claiming by becoming blind she would "fulfill her lifelong wish". She had spent much of her life pretending to be blind. I don't agree with this sort of thing. I personally think the psychologist should go prison for physically abusing a mentally ill patient, and the woman needs psychiatric care.

But there's a problem. Most of us aren't bothered by the existence of transexuals. Why does the existence of people of transabled people seem so wrong? Will the humans of the future look back on us as intolerant brutes for not accepting the transabled?

[OnnaBushido]

They can do what they want with their bodies, however they do not need a disability pension for doing so. Nor do we need to indulge them. I guess if you really want to get into that then it becomes a question of liberalism vs socialism.

Comparing them with trans ppl is false equivalency btw:
-Trans ppl have a neurological basis for their condition, transabled, otherkin etc etc do not
-There is a cure for trans ppl and it works. There is no cure for transabled
-What's more is that when you treat trans ppl they are just as able bodied as before and a lot happier too.

So had this disorder been studied much? Are the people actually happier when they've been mutilated? Over the long term? Maybe there is a neurological basis and they are missing some nerve ganglia somewhere. Maybe there is a better solution for them.

[Himster]

It's their bodies.
A better comparison for this, rather than transexuals, would be assisted suicide.

[sumskilz]

-Trans ppl have a neurological basis for their condition, transabled, otherkin etc etc do not

Why would you assume that?

Neural Basis of Limb Ownership in Individuals with Body Integrity Identity Disorder

Body Integrity Identity Disorder: Deranged Body Processing, Right Fronto-Parietal Dysfunction, and Phenomenological Experience of Body Incongruity

-There is a cure for trans ppl and it works. There is no cure for transabled

What makes you think the cure transabled people are asking for doesn't work as well as the cure for transexuals?

So had this disorder been studied much? Are the people actually happier when they've been mutilated? Over the long term? Maybe there is a neurological basis and they are missing some nerve ganglia somewhere. Maybe there is a better solution for them.

Aren't you asking questions here that you just claimed to know the answers to? In any case, it seems that it hasn't been studied that much according to what I could find with a quick google search.

[Maiar93]

No, definitely not. Assisted suicide is entirely different from helping someone live a life of misery - the other is a way out of misery, the other simply a gateway into new depths of misery.

If someone disagrees with the notion that a disabled person does not suffer from his/her condition, ergo that helping them become disabled is like helping them become miserable, then someone is most likely delusional and someone's opinion should not be taken seriously on this topic. That's my opinion.

[Caligula's_Horse]

When a man (or woman) expresses a wish to kill himself, we stop him, by force if necessary, and have a mental health professional talk him out of it (with some chemical help, if there's an element of depression or something). Most of them even thank you for it afterwards. I don't see how this is any different.

Why anyone would prefer to be disabled is beyond me. Just keep your eyes closed if you don't like being able to see, and stay off your feet if being able to walk starts to feel oppressive, somehow.

[Copperknickers II]

I originally wrote a very very long post going into detail on the morality and practicality of indulging people with these kind of identity disorders, but to cut a long story short: if you want to do something, then as long as it does not adversely affect others, go ahead. If you want to do something that adversely affects you yourself, and traditional methods of CBT and other efforts to remove or at least limit harmful desires have failed, then it might be the case that extreme indulgent 'treatment' is the only solution, if the alternative is suicide or extreme distress.

This is all subject to scientific evaluation of the effectiveness of this 'treatment'. On the bright side, it's pretty easy to hide the fact that you blinded yourself, maybe easier than hiding the fact that you were once a different gender, so the issue of integrating into society is if anything less serious than with transgender people, until such a time as sex change surgery becomes 100% operational. The only issue therefore is paying for the extra upkeep needed for disabled people. Ideally I would say you should be allowed to have the 'treatment' so long as you were able to provide money to keep yourself without extra input from the taxpayer, but if you are so profoundly mentally ill as to feel your only option is either to blind yourself or commit suicide maybe I would concede that your mental illness in itself is worth funding (living in a country with universal healthcare I mean).

As for the transgender comparison, the fundamental difference is that changing your gender in an equal society doesn't inconvenience anybody else beyond superficial things like your sex life (which is a question of morality on the part of the trans individual and whether they tell their sexual partners they are transgender), so if it is a mental disorder then it doesn't have to be a harmful one, and if a mental disorder isn't harmful then it's no longer a medical condition and becomes just a personality trait. To be honest I don't know why people get so upset about transgender people using a toilet appropriate to their new gender rather than their physical one, since surely a more major issue in toilets is sexuality, and few people have a problem with gay people using men's toilets.

[Maiar93]

What if one could be argued out of one's burning desire to become a blind person? If there is even a slight sliver of hope for accomplishing this, how can one say that it is OK to mutilate them? There is a reason people who think vomiting six times ever day is OK don't get invited to health conventions. This is the same reason why we shouldn't indulge the self-mutilation fantasies of these fantastic few.

[Gaidin]

Hilarious question: how are you going to stop them?

[Hazzard]

I think that the ideal for most mental disorders is to have them removed completely. We don't have depressed people just accept being sad forever, we try to make them stop being depressed. I think something similar would be ideal for trans people. Rather than them transitioning over to the opposite sex, something I can't imagine being pleasant either, they would be better off being in the position of the rest of society of being fine in their bodies as is. I see transitioning as the best treatment available now, but not necessarily the ideal one.

The same goes for these people who want to be disabled, except even then I think there's a better solution than disfiguring themselves. You don't want to see? Wear a blindfold? You don't like your arm? Tie it to your side and stop using it. You don't like a leg? Get crutches or a wheelchair and just ignore it. Trying to get these people back to a mental state where they don't hate their bodies might be a better solution.

[Arbitrary Crusader]

Should we let people become disabled as a lifestyle choice?

"We" as in someone else and me, then no.

Harming oneself like that is odd to say the least and doesn't ring mental well-being either.

I understand people want to things to themselves and yea yea. I get it. Yet, there are consequences to their acts (Beside their own pains and such) like affecting their loved ones. Personally, I would seek help if my sister (If she existed) was trying to blind herself, no least than her trying to kill herself.

But Gaiden brings a good point too. Only way to stop them, would be if you are close to them when it happens, even then, if they really want to, they can still try again later. Or you can have seek mental help and so on.

[sumskilz]

the fundamental difference is that changing your gender in an equal society doesn't inconvenience anybody else

This is probably the best distinction argument. Although I assume people with BIID would probably argue that they wouldn't be a burden on anyone, and it's possible they could get by without being so, depending on what their particular issue is.

What if one could be argued out of one's burning desire to become a blind person? If there is even a slight sliver of hope for accomplishing this, how can one say that it is OK to mutilate them? There is a reason people who think vomiting six times ever day is OK don't get invited to health conventions. This is the same reason why we shouldn't indulge the self-mutilation fantasies of these fantastic few.

Do you take the same view on gender reassignment surgery? Thanks to Enros and my own damn curiosity I saw some pretty disturbing mutilation images. The basis of the argument in both cases, and I don't know enough to assess its validity, is that the person will be miserable without the body modification.

[DaniCatBurger]

The possible ethical response(s) is/are more obvious than the epistemic.

It seems ethically quite reasonable to me not to mutilate myself.

How can I know that it is ethically quite reasonable?

A very general answer could be by reflecting on the consequences, weighing the arguments and principles.

The answer seems to trigger some problems.

What if the I asking the question was living in the Neolithic period, e.g. a kind of an Oetzi individual?

I think I would get into troubles. Is it a question to an Oetzi at all?

[Maiar93]

Do you take the same view on gender reassignment surgery? Thanks to Enros and my own damn curiosity I saw some pretty disturbing mutilation images. The basis of the argument in both cases, and I don't know enough to assess its validity, is that the person will be miserable without the body modification.

If the "you don't get invited to the health convention" argument applies in gender reassignment, then yes, I do take that view.

[gaunty14]

I would be happy paying for the treatment to try and mitigate/alleviate the psychological disorder out of my taxes as that sounds like a horrible disorder to have, although provided they don't sponge off the state after they have blinded themselves, severed their arms/legs or had a lobotomy then go for it.

[Phier]

Crazy people are disconcerting but not disturbing in a way. Crazy is as crazy does.

What disturbs me is she found someone who should be a "professional" who did it for/to her.

[chriscase]

I've always felt myself to be more like Cthulhu... you know, on the inside.



Looking for a really good plastic surgeon...

[clone]

I've always felt myself to be more like Cthulhu... you know, on the inside.



Looking for a really good plastic surgeon...

praise the dark lord

[chriscase]

praise the dark lord

Excellent. Once the remainder of the human race has bent the knee, my suffering will finally be at an end.

[Maiar93]

Davy Jones already did the octopus beard thing better, Cthulhu. How can you even stand yourself anymore?