School shooter shoots over 30 people at Oregon college

[Admiral Piett]

You know it's funny how all of these foreigners come and start all these threads on US politics for a chance to spew some kind of antipathy about our social constructs or how "outdated" we are, etc when we are the ones that are most responsible for Europe being the state that it is in. And I'm not talking about WWII, I'm talking about culture, the entire idea of democratic republican government, the idea of civil rights. In Europe, being armed was never a civil right because your population's history is that of subjects (French and Swiss can take exception to that). It was never even a concept that being armed was as sacred a right as all the others. And why should you be? You seem to have an absolute trust in your legal system. Plus, you don't have much of a black market for firearms, so firearm regulation is enforceable in a realistic way. And you have lower violent crime rates generally (regardless of firearm presence or not as is the case with Switzerland). Therefore, it is realistic for you to assume that gun control works because you don't seem to have an innate issue with violence due to cultural homogeneity and the pacification of the continent via social democracy.

Yet, when we look at all the other US threads in here, people are talking about how corrupt the US government, how it is willing to use war to achieve its ends, how the police are incompetent or mow people down with little justification, how the money controls the people, how high the violent crime rate is, racial violence, etc. You don't realize you are taking a completely contradictory stance to the idea of empowering the people to defend themselves against criminals or whatever forces at stake when you argue about how outdated the 2nd amendment is. But you don't even pause to understand why in our nation's founding it was considered necessary to put right up there with freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and freedom of association. It's part of the entire social construct of our country and its impossible to excise it without bringing up questions about the legitimacy of the bill of rights itself if all of these 'natural born rights' are subject to amendment or abolition. Repealing the 2nd amendment would be as controversial and shocking to our construct as repealing any of the other 9 amendments in the bill of rights.

I don't own firearms because of the government, the vast majority of us don't. Usually a lot of us have been victims of violent crimes in the past or we were just raised with them and taught how to use and store them properly. Some people just like them. Sure it's nice to have in the event the US decides to go full retard and become a police state, but I don't argue it's a good enough reason since that may or may not ever happen. For myself anyway, it's always been purely about protection. I can't always have faith in my local police to be there at all times. I have no interest in dealing with the conspiracy theorists that want to drill for the Obama takeover.

[Phier]

I'm sure this thread is about gun control and spurred on by Europeans for some reason.

I personally went shooting today and had a good old time. Shot a Walther PP 9mm for the first time. Great trigger on the gun, was able to put 10-10 in the neck at 15' on a 1/2 size silhouette target.

I was having issues with the Shield 9mm I was testing, the Winchester range 9mm's were jamming quite frequently, like 3 jams out of 100 shots. Thats not very good. I do think its the ammo though not the gun, the Winchester range ammo is really sort of bottom of the barrel for practice ammo. I still think its a good CCW.

Shame though in this case I'd not have been able to help stop the killer, being the campus and area is of course gun and CC free, making it safe.

[IronBrig4]

Actually, the campus DOES allow guns for CCW license holders. http://www.oregonlive.com/education/...ege_not_a.html

From what the majority of law enforcement say, CCW people trying to stop a mass shooting are a serious problem. When the cops arrive on the scene, all they'll see are visible threats.

Gunfights are confusing. You think civilians in such a situation would know who's a "good guy" and who's not? Most crazed gunmen don't have black hats or twirly mustaches.

[Modestus]

What can you say, the USA the safest place in the world and if we only had more guns we could make it even safer.

[Admiral Piett]

Actually, the campus DOES allow guns for CCW license holders. http://www.oregonlive.com/education/...ege_not_a.html

From what the majority of law enforcement say, CCW people trying to stop a mass shooting are a serious problem. When the cops arrive on the scene, all they'll see are visible threats.

Said no deputy I've ever done a ride along with. Ever.

Oregon is not a state where a lot of people practice CCW anyway, so regardless of that, he had easy pickings.

[Valkor Deathborne]

I´m not sure if I can do that. But looking at states like the USA or Israel for example it seems to me that they entered a state of "constant threat" to a degree that seems paranoid to me at times. I noticed that not only criminals but also the security forces are way more aggressive and quicker at violence, even excessive. Given, germany has the luck not to border to a country like mexico which seems to me spiralling down into either a civil war or a cartel government. Maybe it has also to do with the fact that not only in WW2 but in the centuries before our lands were soaked in blood and that the awareness of that has enterd the general mind.
I´m not saying that this is the taka tuka land and that doesn´t happen here (and it seems to get worse), but that orgies of violence that happen on some places of the world are really unthinkable here. For the time being.

I think you did an excellent job of explaining your point. The 'state of fear' aspect that seems to be pushed down here (in USA) in multiple forms is saddening because it just preys on an emotional reaponse (which most gun control arguments take that up ON BOTH SIDES). And yes our police forces do have a more heightened 'militaristic' response albeit without the necessary training or cause. Firearms for better or worse are deeply entrenched in American society and part of our cultural backbone. We romanticise the western freedom aspect but also push the fear of (insert irrational fear govt, muggers, "thugs", etc).

[Phier]

Actually, the campus DOES allow guns for CCW license holders. http://www.oregonlive.com/education/...ege_not_a.html

From what the majority of law enforcement say, CCW people trying to stop a mass shooting are a serious problem. When the cops arrive on the scene, all they'll see are visible threats.

Gunfights are confusing. You think civilians in such a situation would know who's a "good guy" and who's not? Most crazed gunmen don't have black hats or twirly mustaches.

Its always funny that certain people are suddenly "pro police" when it comes to CCW.

Just how that would have made this worse is a mystery to me. I can understand more confusion but thats why they are paid professionals. If you are a law abiding citizen with a CCW and the police arrive the obvious thing to do is announce yourself and if safe for you drop your weapon.

The reasoning here seems to be "we know hes the bad guy cause hes got the gun" which is great, if we had cops everywhere at all times. Most cops though are not pro CCW but you see they have to carry a weapon and are able to protect their families and the like, for them its for their own selfish reasons. I'm sure if they lost the right to carry outside of work you would see a lot change their opinion.

(insert irrational fear govt, muggers, "thugs", etc).

A conservative is a liberal who was just mugged. I think both you and I have different takes on "irrational". Me having a weapon is perfectly rational.

[Valkor Deathborne]

In any case the weapon law in the US is as many other laws absolutly outdated. The United States alway pretend to be modern, but they still stuck in the 18th century in many cases. The damn law was made when the democracy there was still young, there was an threat by the British and they had no real army in numbers. The laws says that it helps to make citizens capable to form militias to defend the nation. However, now you have not only the largest army in the world, but also national guard in every federal state which are officially militias. This damn law as it was originally intendet has no justification. If weapons should be forbidden is another thing, but it should be at least updated.

The US has been a nation for far less time then most of our bigger european cousins. You guys have had a thousand years to figure out your ideal form of self governance and shed much more blood then we ever have. While we appreciate, to an extent, the advice given by so many other nationals in this thread it is just that advice, especially without a key understanding of cultural identity. Banning guns in the US would be like making Vatican City an Islamic state.

Also laws being 'outdated' is just a personal reference. One has to look at many other aspects when it comes to governance and what may work in one locale would have ill effects in another.

Also the "damn" law (which from your post would mean the 2nd amendment) has the exact justification today as it had over 200 years ago. It is the final check on any form of governance and a check on oppression. I know that is a hard concept to think of because we all think we are 'above' the baser natures of humanity but humanities nature hasn't changed at all. We are not all of a sudden enlightened and a higher form of species. Just look at all the strife in the world today.

Also this 'damn' law (which apparently you don't like because you do not want, are incapableof, or refuse to protect yourself for whatever reason) has been updated and does include self defense rights. So all your talk of big armies and militias, although flawed, also doesnt hold an ounce of weight in a self defense case.

[pacifism]

Yeah, straw purchases are an enormous problem. That's when someone who can't legally buy a gun simply gets a friend or relative to buy a gun for them. Anyone who does so deserves to receive the same sentence when the loon shoots up a place. They are accessories.

I'd rather have those people be charged as an accessory than being charged with shooting up a place that you didn't shoot up. It might be almost as successful as effective gun control policies for gun crime.

All USA Christians should arm themselves, take gun education classes, and protect themselves. The die is cast(Alea iacta est).

Why?

ur not being funny

[Phier]

I'd rather have those people be charged as an accessory than being charged with shooting up a place that you didn't shoot up. It might be as successful as effective gun control policies for using gun crime.

In my state the penalty for that is 15 years.

If you know the guy is going to commit a crime 25 years.

[Valkor Deathborne]

Just how that would have made this worse is a mystery to me. I can understand more confusion but thats why they are paid professionals. If you are a law abiding citizen with a CCW and the police arrive the obvious thing to do is announce yourself and if safe for you drop your weapon.

The reasoning here seems to be "we know hes the bad guy cause hes got the gun" which is great, if we had cops everywhere at all times. Most cops though are not pro CCW but you see they have to carry a weapon and are able to protect their families and the like, for them its for their own selfish reasons. I'm sure if they lost the right to carry outside of work you would see a lot change their opinion.



A conservative is a liberal who was just mugged. I think both you and I have different takes on "irrational". Me having a weapon is perfectly rational.

The issue seen with cops (mostly)is they are not paid professionals, merely paid amateurs in the following sense: an amateur does something until they get it right, a professional until they can't get it wrong. Sadly this is usually due to funding in regards to gunfighting when dealing with law enforcement. Although looking at how police officers set up there gear is very telling as well and more tacticool then tactical.

And mycomment about irrational should be clarified in that its not an irrational fear, but the fear is pushed by outside influences to the point of irrationality. You having a weapon is perfectly rationale and more so then not having one.

[Roma_Victrix]

ur not being funny

And your response isn't very clever, either (seeing how that part of my post was an intentionally corny joke).

[Phier]

The issue seen with cops (mostly)is they are not paid professionals, merely paid amateurs in the following sense: an amateur does something until they get it right, a professional until they can't get it wrong. Sadly this is usually due to funding in regards to gunfighting when dealing with law enforcement. Although looking at how police officers set up there gear is very telling as well and more tacticool then tactical.

.

While I don't entirely agree that they are amateurs, wouldn't that lend itself to arming oneself being the most rational decision? If those who are suppose to protect you, are themselves incompetent, then you should take care of yourself.

[Thorn777]

In any case the weapon law in the US is as many other laws absolutly outdated. The United States alway pretend to be modern, but they still stuck in the 18th century in many cases. The damn law was made when the democracy there was still young, there was an threat by the British and they had no real army in numbers. The laws says that it helps to make citizens capable to form militias to defend the nation. However, now you have not only the largest army in the world, but also national guard in every federal state which are officially militias. This damn law as it was originally intendet has no justification. If weapons should be forbidden is another thing, but it should be at least updated.

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-...d-States/Crime

Also rape, violent-crime without use of firearms and many other categories is many times higher per-capita compared to Germany for instance. So with or without guns, they have a Problem that is not due to guns themselves. And in a society with so many guns, banning them will do nothing.

You know it's funny how all of these foreigners come and start all these threads on US politics for a chance to spew some kind of antipathy about our social constructs or how "outdated" we are, etc when we are the ones that are most responsible for Europe being the state that it is in. And I'm not talking about WWII, I'm talking about culture, the entire idea of democratic republican government, the idea of civil rights. In Europe, being armed was never a civil right because your population's history is that of subjects (French and Swiss can take exception to that). It was never even a concept that being armed was as sacred a right as all the others. And why should you be? You seem to have an absolute trust in your legal system. Plus, you don't have much of a black market for firearms, so firearm regulation is enforceable in a realistic way. And you have lower violent crime rates generally (regardless of firearm presence or not as is the case with Switzerland). Therefore, it is realistic for you to assume that gun control works because you don't seem to have an innate issue with violence due to cultural homogeneity and the pacification of the continent via social democracy.

Yet, when we look at all the other US threads in here, people are talking about how corrupt the US government, how it is willing to use war to achieve its ends, how the police are incompetent or mow people down with little justification, how the money controls the people, how high the violent crime rate is, racial violence, etc. You don't realize you are taking a completely contradictory stance to the idea of empowering the people to defend themselves against criminals or whatever forces at stake when you argue about how outdated the 2nd amendment is. But you don't even pause to understand why in our nation's founding it was considered necessary to put right up there with freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and freedom of association. It's part of the entire social construct of our country and its impossible to excise it without bringing up questions about the legitimacy of the bill of rights itself if all of these 'natural born rights' are subject to amendment or abolition. Repealing the 2nd amendment would be as controversial and shocking to our construct as repealing any of the other 9 amendments in the bill of rights.

I don't own firearms because of the government, the vast majority of us don't. Usually a lot of us have been victims of violent crimes in the past or we were just raised with them and taught how to use and store them properly. Some people just like them. Sure it's nice to have in the event the US decides to go full retard and become a police state, but I don't argue it's a good enough reason since that may or may not ever happen. For myself anyway, it's always been purely about protection. I can't always have faith in my local police to be there at all times. I have no interest in dealing with the conspiracy theorists that want to drill for the Obama takeover.

Whats really funny is that Americans comment in all sorts of threads about all sorts of nations. Half of those threads to do with American Military agression and forcing American values on said countries.

Also funny is that USA is propelling their cultural-propaganda all over the globe, specially western Society, building up a sort of familiarity with US Society. Which has destinct advantages for US interests and is very much wanted. One of the side effects though is pansy Europeans building up destinct opinions about US Society. Deal with it!

[Lortano]

Whats really funny is that Americans comment in all sorts of threads about all sorts of nations. Half of those threads to do with American Military agression and forcing American values on said countries.

Because heaven above that people on a public forum be able to comment on issues that interest them. Last time I checked this thread was about a mass murdering degenerate, not American bashing just because you disagree with an American on gun control.

[Enros]

Its always funny that certain people are suddenly "pro police" when it comes to CCW.

I'm pro police who are well paid, have high entry requirements (in Norway they require a degree) and have an independent bodies to monitor them.

Here in Ireland the police don't do civil forfeiture themselves. A seperate agency of former revenue civil servants whose only job is civil forfeiture does it instead. That's the correct way to do it and we don't have complaints about police misusing that power. Of course, we do have police corruption. That's why we try to take many powers out of the hands of police and into the hands of civilian civil servants.

I'm talking about culture, the entire idea of democratic republican government, the idea of civil rights.

Apart from the fact the US bill of rights is more recent than the French declaration of the rights of man, human rights are neither a recent nor Western phenomenon. I'm not even going to talk about the constitutions of ancient and medieval Europe. When Ashoka conquered most of India he enforced edicts outlawing human and animal sacrifice, mandating good treatment for prisoners of war, designating some species as protected and some other things. Muhammed created a constitution at Medina in 622 preventing infighting between Muslims, Christians and Jews, and between Arab tribes. It also gave women the right to own property and initiate divorce, which they had lacked before Muhammed showed up. One of the first modern Western civil rights laws was passed by the Spanish in 1512 called the Laws of Burgos, supposedly giving native Americans some relief from all that slavery.

You can claim that these weren't well enforced. Neither is the US bill of rights. You can claim they weren't very liberal. Neither is the US bill of rights. Ashoka protected the lives of parrots while allowing slavery. So did the US bill of rights.

I personally went shooting today and had a good old time. Shot a Walther PP 9mm for the first time. Great trigger on the gun, was able to put 10-10 in the neck at 15' on a 1/2 size silhouette target.

You say that like it's something purely American. I've been shooting rifles and shotguns here in Ireland. People who shoot for fun are granted firearms licences.

[Cyclops]

... In Europe, being armed was never a civil right because your population's history is that of subjects (French and Swiss can take exception to that). It was never even a concept that being armed was as sacred a right as all the others....

Bearing was a sacred right of the feudal aristocracy in Europe. Bearing arms is not a sacred right in any Western Country AFAIK, not even the US.

[Derpy Hooves]

not even the US.

the second amendment would like a word with you

[Border Patrol]

Bearing was a sacred right of the feudal aristocracy in Europe. Bearing arms is not a sacred right in any Western Country AFAIK, not even the US.

The Constitution was unable to be ratified without it.
"...endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

[Phier]

You say that like it's something purely American. I've been shooting rifles and shotguns here in Ireland. People who shoot for fun are granted firearms licences.

I've been working on "two eyed" shooting and I think I got the hang of it. I'm very right eye dominate and I always shut my left eye shooting, this is of course sub optimal for self defense. I've increased my accuracy too. But onto Ireland which has very restrictive gun laws.

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/cp/ireland

Glad my family got out of there

Genuine Reason

Applicants must prove ‘good reason’ for ownership of the firearm applied for, and the Garda must be satisfied that the applicant can be permitted to possess, use and carry the firearms ‘without danger to the public safety or security or the peace.' If the ‘good reason’ for firearm possession is target shooting, the owner must belong to a police-approved rifle or pistol club. Where application is for a restricted firearm, the applicant must have 'good and sufficient reason for requiring such a firearm' and must additionally demonstrate that 'the firearm is the only type of weapon appropriate for the purpose.'⁵³

<sup>See now the other problem we have is that the USA is not Ireland, at all, like not even remotely like that. First off, we are like REALLY BIG. I had to once explain to a UK friend coming to visit that no, we just couldn't drive to Texas from Chicago for a side trip, and thats the "short" direction. We are not only big but very diverse, like a crapload more than Ireland. Whats ironic about Irelands gun laws, is they probably don't need to be nearly as restrictive as they are, maybe its left over from "the troubles" or maybe my genetic kin are just afraid of guns, but without that diversity and conflict it brings, there should be less worry about a lawful citizen going nuts. But anyways, the US has its issues that are not the same as Europe's.

I live in a very safe area, its all nice and clean with friendly cops and while we have had a murder or two in the last 10 years I've been here, its rare and usually related to mental illness. Driving only 40 minutes away puts me in an area that makes a good video game. Drugs, crime, gang members. Areas police don't go into unless there are several. Areas where an ambulance needs police escort, because apparently helping your own doesn't register to them. Its a culture issue, and while we could prevent most of the violence in a week, it would require infringing on several rights and would be called all sorts of bad things. It would require the use of the military which is a no-no for more than one reason.

This is a shame, and sometimes these people do travel. I have seen people assaulted by gangs just looking for white people to beat the crap out of.

Added my state has done a liberal thing. They created "section 8" housing. This moved government ghettos into the happy suburbs. This has created high crime in areas that were perfectly fine before. Did a mention one of these areas is about 2 miles from my home? The police spend a lot of time there.

So for me as a upstanding, sane, citizen, owning a gun for home defense, training my wife to shoot too, and getting a CCW permit just makes sense. Odds are we will go to our graves never needing them, but if we do I'd rather we had a fighting chance to live.

I'm not sure why this sort of freedom offends people who don't live in the US so badly. You can live your way, we can live ours. I like ours better.</sup>