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Thread: School shooter shoots over 30 people at Oregon college

  1. #321

    Default Re: School shooter shoots over 30 people at Oregon college

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Can't open the link, is fear (or caution or whatever, not wanting to trigger red/blue exchange here) a factor? I strongly identify fear (albeit totally illogical in my case) behind any desire I have to own arms.
    Fear, sure. Prudence works too. Usually fear is something is about one doesn't do. One doesn't get a vaccine, doesn't fly in air craft, doesn't go out at night, doesn't answer the door. I'd say fear is a far bigger factor in the anti-gun crowd.

    I recall my father in his later years acquiring a club. He was a University grade boxer and footballer, very strong, but when his strength went I guess a bit of fear kicked in and he got this stubby cosh. Mind you he lived in a very safe suburb, and was respected as a fair law official, so not one likely to draw reprisals from serious criminals. When he died I found it and threw it out.
    Let me tell you a story that happened in my very affluent and safe suburb. My wifes friend was driving home from some event with her two children. They get in the driveway and start to get out of the car when another car pulls right in behind them. A man comes out and approaches her while not looking her in the eye and says something about what a wonderful Jew family she has and Jew children. Mind you shes about as Jewish looking as Obama. He kept walking up to them but her husband, who is a giant of a man, the largest I've seen in person, walks out, with their two dogs and the guy quickly goes back to his car and drives off. She still "is fearful" of what would have happened had her husband not been home and such a big guy. They filed a police report but the guy was never caught. The thing about violence is is can happen any time and very unexpectedly. Your father wasn't necessarily fearful he was prudent.

    A mate of mine did the same thing when he copped a spinal injury (actually come to think of it he was a pretty handy sportsman and a gun street fighter, worked as a bouncer at some very nasty venues). Made himself a short club out of steel cable wrapped in gaffer tape., I threw that out too, gave him a fat wrench instead because if you kill an intruder with a prepared weapon in Australia there's a fair chance you'll be found to have had malice aforethought and be done for murder. Cops here are mostly trustworthy but they still hate vigilantes. Knock a burglar on the head with a wrench you were just working on the sink with, that's not murder.
    I heard Australia went full stupid, but didn't know it went that far.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  2. #322
    IronBrig4's Avatar Good Matey
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    Default Re: School shooter shoots over 30 people at Oregon college

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    Fear, sure. Prudence works too. Usually fear is something is about one doesn't do. One doesn't get a vaccine, doesn't fly in air craft, doesn't go out at night, doesn't answer the door. I'd say fear is a far bigger factor in the anti-gun crowd.
    Well... not so much. I'd say that the pro-gun crowd has its fair share of fearful people, bordering on the paranoid. Three day waiting period? "But what if my daughter's ex-boyfriend is coming after her now?!" Mandatory safe storage? "But what if I hear my child screaming in another room?!" Banning certain ammunition types? "But what if the crook's wearing body armor?!" What if, what if, what if.

    And I'm not going to get into the really paranoid folks who think they'll need to fight off a UN invasion.

    I guess I'm not a fearful person. I'm slightly bigger than average and can handle myself in a fight. I've never been the victim of a violent crime, partially because potential muggers look at me and decide I'm too much trouble. I once walked five miles home late at night alone. This was before the age of commonplace cell phones as well, so nobody knew where I was. I just took a drink of water and hiked back. I answer the door in the evening without thinking twice. My female friends can't believe I do that; their parents make them promise to carry pepper spray or a pistol whenever they're out at night. I've also moved to foreign countries twice on my own, mostly for the adventure.

    About the only time I ever felt unease was when I was in Athens. A friendly old Greek dude was leading me to a "family owned" bar off the beaten path. THAT was when my Spidey-sense kicked in and I started scanning my surroundings. I made sure I was by an exit and was never too far away from cops. It turns out I wasn't in any physical danger; I just got scammed with an outrageously high bar tab.

    From what I can gather from your posts, you don't feel like you NEED a gun. You just WANT guns for you and your wife. That's fine. I WANT a gun once I'm done with my PhD and know which state I'll be living in. I'm torn between a Springfield Model 1861 and a British Sea Service Pattern musket. Again, I just want one because I think they're neat.

    It's the folks who feel like they NEED guns who are the problem. When people feel like gun control presents an existential threat to themselves, they cannot possibly compromise.
    Last edited by IronBrig4; October 19, 2015 at 01:16 AM.

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  3. #323

    Default Re: School shooter shoots over 30 people at Oregon college

    Hell, who wouldn't want a gun? They're fun. But so are lots of things we regulate for very good reasons.

  4. #324

    Default Re: School shooter shoots over 30 people at Oregon college

    Quote Originally Posted by IronBrig4 View Post
    Well... not so much. I'd say that the pro-gun crowd has its fair share of fearful people, bordering on the paranoid. Three day waiting period? "But what if my daughter's ex-boyfriend is coming after her now?!" Mandatory safe storage? "But what if I hear my child screaming in another room?!" Banning certain ammunition types? "But what if the crook's wearing body armor?!" What if, what if, what if.
    Actually those are all valid if rare concerns. My sister had a stalker ex boyfriend that was stopped by a security guard after he snuck past a guardhouse, being she lived in a gated community she got lucky (and most of the guards are awful and I've caught more than one asleep late night) but most don't have that. Safe storage has limitations and is silly for people without children, ammo types DO matter, you can ask the LA cops how they enjoyed the bad guys with AK's and body armor with their standard pistols.



    There does come a time where you say the odds are low enough to not worry about it, but its not like those are situations that never happen.

    And I'm not going to get into the really paranoid folks who think they'll need to fight off a UN invasion.
    Good, because they don't matter.

    I guess I'm not a fearful person. I'm slightly bigger than average and can handle myself in a fight. I've never been the victim of a violent crime, partially because potential muggers look at me and decide I'm too much trouble. I once walked five miles home late at night alone. This was before the age of commonplace cell phones as well, so nobody knew where I was. I just took a drink of water and hiked back. I answer the door in the evening without thinking twice. My female friends can't believe I do that; their parents make them promise to carry pepper spray or a pistol whenever they're out at night. I've also moved to foreign countries twice on my own, mostly for the adventure.

    About the only time I ever felt unease was when I was in Athens. A friendly old Greek dude was leading me to a "family owned" bar off the beaten path. THAT was when my Spidey-sense kicked in and I started scanning my surroundings. I made sure I was by an exit and was never too far away from cops. It turns out I wasn't in any physical danger; I just got scammed with an outrageously high bar tab.

    From what I can gather from your posts, you don't feel like you NEED a gun. You just WANT guns for you and your wife. That's fine. I WANT a gun once I'm done with my PhD and know which state I'll be living in. I'm torn between a Springfield Model 1861 and a British Sea Service Pattern musket. Again, I just want one because I think they're neat.

    It's the folks who feel like they NEED guns who are the problem. When people feel like gun control presents an existential threat to themselves, they cannot possibly compromise.
    No I don't NEED a gun. I just decided it was prudent.

    But as for gun control, the problem is there is very little room to compromise. You have people like Ferrets out there who just cherry pick stats and ignore the ones they don't like trying to show how bad guns are. This isn't sanity vrs insanity. Its basically the right to be armed vrs being forced to be disarmed. I mean look above, if you have a self defense weapon in your home in Australia and you use it, even if its a simple club, you could be found guilty of murder since you THOUGHT about using it? Thats as idiotic asa guy who lives in a bunker waiting for the apocalypse, only that guy is at least in a bunker and not passing idiotic laws.

    What it comes down to I think is the left fears the individual more than the government, despite histories proof that democide is far more dangerous than homicide. Its really weird, in that they are the first to blame cops for over reacting, yet think that police should be the ONLY ones legally armed in society. I really don't get them at all, there is a lack of consistency in thought. Its sort of the typical first world problem mind set. Nothing bad has happened to me before, people are scary, I want to be less scared.

    I personally have no fear of the US government, for now, I do fear the criminal elements out there, and I don't trust that somehow making guns illegal will make me any safer from them. The fact its mostly Europeans arguing who have no idea what the US can be like in places is rather telling.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  5. #325
    IronBrig4's Avatar Good Matey
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    Default Re: School shooter shoots over 30 people at Oregon college

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    Safe storage has limitations and is silly for people without children, ammo types DO matter, you can ask the LA cops how they enjoyed the bad guys with AK's and body armor with their standard pistols.
    I know about the North Hollywood shootout. And a CHL's chances of facing well-armed, armored, organized robbers are infinitesimally small. There is no need to sell ammo to non-LEO civilians for that kind of situation.

    There does come a time where you say the odds are low enough to not worry about it, but its not like those are situations that never happen.
    That's the "but what IF?!" attitude that gun rights activists won't drop. And it's reinforced by the odd case that happens now and then, along with tons of stalker movies on the Lifetime network.

    But as for gun control, the problem is there is very little room to compromise. You have people like Ferrets out there who just cherry pick stats and ignore the ones they don't like trying to show how bad guns are. This isn't sanity vrs insanity. Its basically the right to be armed vrs being forced to be disarmed. I mean look above, if you have a self defense weapon in your home in Australia and you use it, even if its a simple club, you could be found guilty of murder since you THOUGHT about using it? Thats as idiotic asa guy who lives in a bunker waiting for the apocalypse, only that guy is at least in a bunker and not passing idiotic laws.
    http://nswcourts.com.au/articles/whe...efence-in-nsw/

    Self-defense is legal in all Australian states, although each of them have different rules (this link is for New South Wales). It's likely that one's plea to self-defense depends on their lawyer. And it's not like US courts haven't always done that. Shoot someone breaking into your house and you won't see the inside of a court room. On the other hand, try setting up a gun trap for burglars and nobody will acquit you if it kills one.

    What it comes down to I think is the left fears the individual more than the government, despite histories proof that democide is far more dangerous than homicide. Its really weird, in that they are the first to blame cops for over reacting, yet think that police should be the ONLY ones legally armed in society. I really don't get them at all, there is a lack of consistency in thought. Its sort of the typical first world problem mind set. Nothing bad has happened to me before, people are scary, I want to be less scared.
    I dunno about the cops part. It seems that liberals are likely to blame BAD cops. That's why they're pushing for police reform; they want to drive the bad cops out. The rest of the police don't help their own case by circling the wagons around their "brothers" just because they're cops too. But I digress.

    I personally have no fear of the US government, for now, I do fear the criminal elements out there, and I don't trust that somehow making guns illegal will make me any safer from them. The fact its mostly Europeans arguing who have no idea what the US can be like in places is rather telling.
    I understand, but you must realize that gun control works in other secular democratic countries and even some US states. From my own experience, I've lived in South Korea, where guns are extremely tough to own. The surrounding nations also have severe restrictions, so there's little chance of smuggled guns pouring in. And you know what? It's perfectly safe. It also helps that everyone there knows tae kwon do. My female friends could walk out late at night without looking over their shoulders.

    I've also lived in Hawaii, where there is only a handful of CHL holders in the entire state. People can own guns but a CHL is hard to come by. The county police chief "may issue" a CHL if he feels the applicant actually needs one. Again, it is virtually impossible to smuggle in guns, and the various law enforcement agencies destroy their obsolescent weapons instead of putting them into circulation.

    I'd say the degree of fear that Americans experience is unique to them as a nation. American parents don't let their kids go trick-or-treating without adult supervision anymore. It used to be that parents would wait on the sidewalk while the kids went up to the houses. Now parents walk up WITH them just in case their neighbors are kidnappers. American women always seem to have their heads on a swivel just in case a rapist is waiting around the corner. I remember my ex would make me walk inside her house first whenever we got back from a weekend trip. You know, just in case an axe murderer was waiting behind her shower curtain. This seems to occur all along the political spectrum. I have reason to believe that Americans in general are just a singularly anxious people.

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  6. #326

    Default Re: School shooter shoots over 30 people at Oregon college

    Quote Originally Posted by IronBrig4 View Post
    That's the "but what IF?!" attitude that gun rights activists won't drop. And it's reinforced by the odd case that happens now and then, along with tons of stalker movies on the Lifetime network.
    That SOME won't drop. Its not even a topic of conversation on gun boards, odds are you would need to find preppers or the like to worry about Fallout 3 and even then I'm not sure. I personally spent part of my night researching the best hallow points for a 3" semi-auto. Winner was HPR HyperClean XTP 90-grain JHP.

    Thats definitely not going to be armor piercing and most useful in a self defense situation with such a small calibre.

    http://nswcourts.com.au/articles/whe...efence-in-nsw/

    Self-defense is legal in all Australian states, although each of them have different rules (this link is for New South Wales). It's likely that one's plea to self-defense depends on their lawyer. And it's not like US courts haven't always done that. Shoot someone breaking into your house and you won't see the inside of a court room. On the other hand, try setting up a gun trap for burglars and nobody will acquit you if it kills one.
    There was a famous case of a guy in the Peoples Republic of Massachusetts who killed a dangerous home invader and was convicted of murder in the 80's though I don't remember details and they sense changed the law. Stupid can happen anywhere.


    I dunno about the cops part. It seems that liberals are likely to blame BAD cops. That's why they're pushing for police reform; they want to drive the bad cops out. The rest of the police don't help their own case by circling the wagons around their "brothers" just because they're cops too. But I digress.

    Most liberals have no idea what its like to be a cop, and think that magically "better training" will make problems go away. Sometimes their opinions are so funny I can't breath. I went there.

    I understand, but you must realize that gun control works in other secular democratic countries and even some US states
    .

    My state had some of the harshest in the country, my city out right banned them, you know Chicago, murder capitol of the US. Prior to that murder capitol was East St. Louis, also in my state. The US is big, we have different needs, but none NEED the gun control. Those parts that do well without it are due to the people living their not the guns.

    From my own experience, I've lived in South Korea, where guns are extremely tough to own. The surrounding nations also have severe restrictions, so there's little chance of smuggled guns pouring in. And you know what? It's perfectly safe. It also helps that everyone there knows tae kwon do. My female friends could walk out late at night without looking over their shoulders.
    So guns turn people into murderers and makes the streets unsafe? Its not the Korean people but guns right? And btw if everyone knows TKD no one knows TKD, think about it

    I've also lived in Hawaii, where there is only a handful of CHL holders in the entire state. People can own guns but a CHL is hard to come by. The county police chief "may issue" a CHL if he feels the applicant actually needs one. Again, it is virtually impossible to smuggle in guns, and the various law enforcement agencies destroy their obsolescent weapons instead of putting them into circulation.
    In 2010 (that I found data for) 46.4% of all murders where committed by white or white Hispanics, 49.7% by blacks or black Hispanics. Whites are 72.4% of the population, blacks 12.6%. What is Hawaii missing, and what do they have a lot of? The majority of race of Hawaii is Asian, followed by Whites and Islanders. Blacks are the lowest run outside of Native Americans (close to equal). I rather doubt the relatively tiny number are part of the "thug/gang" culture we see in places like Chicago. As they say in real estate, its location, location, location.

    Now some will call this horribly racist, but this is a chicago demographic map.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Its huge I'm sorry.

    This is a chicago murder map.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    It is what it is man. I'll let you figure out which race is where on the first map.

    I'd say the degree of fear that Americans experience is unique to them as a nation. American parents don't let their kids go trick-or-treating without adult supervision anymore. It used to be that parents would wait on the sidewalk while the kids went up to the houses. Now parents walk up WITH them just in case their neighbors are kidnappers. American women always seem to have their heads on a swivel just in case a rapist is waiting around the corner. I remember my ex would make me walk inside her house first whenever we got back from a weekend trip. You know, just in case an axe murderer was waiting behind her shower curtain. This seems to occur all along the political spectrum. I have reason to believe that Americans in general are just a singularly anxious people.
    This is internet driven phenomena. America is demonstratively SAFER now than when I was a child, but the internet has turned a nation into a village and every bad thing that happens to one person is known by everyone. Ironically guns were much harder to come by, legally, back then. I find myself no different with my children, and I blame it on our evolution vrs our current information reality. Even when something weird happens locally, you might not have heard of it if it didn't make the paper, now its all over facebook (such as the "Jew children" incident in my neighborhood). When another guy got of his car to take pictures of someones children outside here about 3 blocks away and the mother approached him, he sped away, that too was reported, on facebook. If you want to look up sex offenders you can, and see where they are in relation to you. All stuff we couldn't do. Hell my parents let me go with a Catholic deacon out of state on a trip just me and him (imagine that now).

    That being said I don't think its that fear thats driving the public arming directly, but the internet is sure helping. With every shooting an excuse to blame gun ownership, and Hilary Clinton saying the 2nd amendment is basically void, (from what I gather, I'm NOT wasting time watching debates), the "vibe" gets out fast. Obama talks, people buy ammo basically. Finding .22 is still hard in some places (I'm still not sure why .22 but whatever), .380 was hard for a while as well, and many places still limit you on even the most common 9mm. Which reminds me I should pick up some .380 tonight.

    If this post seems disjointed in any way it is, I've written it over a period of two hours with no proof reading. Work kept getting in the way.
    Last edited by Phier; October 19, 2015 at 03:57 PM.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  7. #327
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    Default Re: School shooter shoots over 30 people at Oregon college

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    .... Your father wasn't necessarily fearful he was prudent.
    Actually I'm pretty sure he had mild paranoia. We had a "gang war" in Melbourne (some idiot cleaned up the corrupt drug squad, and when the cops who had been running the trade were out of the picture the drug lords filled the power vacuum with bullets). My father had put several of them away. One of them moved to our suburb to retire, maybe 100 metres from my parents house, and this ex-drug lord made a point of saying hello to my father on the street. The bloke was shot on his own doorstep as part of a series of retributive killings, my parents heard the gunshots.

    You might think that was a reason to be scared but in fact its shows how polite our crooks are: they nail each other, and occasionally go after the police when they feel they have been treated unfairly. If dad had any reason to be afraid he'd actually have been shot too: he wasn't that good with a cosh AFAIK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    ...I heard Australia went full stupid, but didn't know it went that far.
    We have crime, we have punishments, we have a system to sort-of works. You can defend yourself, but why would you be allowed to execute someone when the state is not allowed to? We'll have another mass shooting sooner or later and we'll become another talking point for NRA and abolition idiots. Meanwhile it sort of works so we'll keep it.

    Quote Originally Posted by IronBrig4 View Post
    I...http://nswcourts.com.au/articles/whe...efence-in-nsw/

    Self-defense is legal in all Australian states, although each of them have different rules (this link is for New South Wales). It's likely that one's plea to self-defense depends on their lawyer. And it's not like US courts haven't always done that. Shoot someone breaking into your house and you won't see the inside of a court room. On the other hand, try setting up a gun trap for burglars and nobody will acquit you if it kills one....
    Looks like I was unclear, apologies. You can kill a guy if he's trying to kill you.

    You can't wait for a burglar with a weapon and kill them when they break in: there was a test case of a guy who had an empty property and a local junkie was breaking in every so often and stealing furniture or something, so the guy lay in wait one night and shot the junkie dead. That was murder.

    Interesting link, so if you don't like a trick or treater in Louisiana you can shoot them to death on your lawn?

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  8. #328
    IronBrig4's Avatar Good Matey
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    Default Re: School shooter shoots over 30 people at Oregon college

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    Most liberals have no idea what its like to be a cop, and think that magically "better training" will make problems go away. Sometimes their opinions are so funny I can't breath. I went there.
    Law enforcement is a high stress occupation. Believe me, I spent years preparing for it. They gave me all the warnings about substance abuse, strained marriages, and PTSD. Many police officers feel immense stress every day and it's impossible to leave that stress at the station when they clock out. The tension builds up and they feel that only other law enforcement truly understand what they're going through. A camaraderie forms as the officers depend on each other through long shifts. One of the officers might slip up. Something small, like shoplifting a candy bar. And the others will let it pass because they want solidarity in the workplace.

    Then the infractions get worse, leading to graft and violence. I also know the usual excuses cops will pull to defend their dirty coworkers (eg. "We have to put our lives on the line every day. I need to have their back"). Closing ranks, forming the blue wall of silence against the press and internal affairs, and intimidating any other cops who expose misconduct (or in extreme instances, leaving them for dead like Serpico in New York). That is law enforcement at its absolute stupidest. The military pulls the same crap because they absolutely have to defend "the man on your left and the man on your right."

    My state had some of the harshest in the country, my city out right banned them, you know Chicago, murder capitol of the US. Prior to that murder capitol was East St. Louis, also in my state. The US is big, we have different needs, but none NEED the gun control. Those parts that do well without it are due to the people living their not the guns.
    http://propagandaprofessor.net/2013/...istics-part-1/

    First off, we should note that crime statistics for cities are not necessarily a reliable gauge of the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of gun laws. Cities, after all, aren’t normally surrounded by barbed wire or moats, so it isn’t that difficult for guns to be brought in from the outside. This is especially true in a city like Chicago, which can be readily accessed by residents of at least three states — including deep red, gun-totin’ Indiana. Indeed, the rest of Illinois has more lax gun laws than does The Windy City; and this is one reason that advocates for stricter gun regulation stress the need for reform at a national level.

    Chicago's gun control laws were like patching a breached hull with a screen door. It's surrounded by states that can supply the guns. Regardless, it's crime rate is still lower than it was. And in terms of murder RATE, it is eclipsed by Detroit, New Orleans, Baton Rouge, Atlanta, Richmond, Birmingham, and Oakland.

    It is what it is man. I'll let you figure out which race is where on the first map.
    I can't see the first map, but I'm aware of Chicago's various neighborhoods. I also know that streets named after Martin Luther King go through more violent areas.

    This is internet driven phenomena. America is demonstratively SAFER now than when I was a child, but the internet has turned a nation into a village and every bad thing that happens to one person is known by everyone. Ironically guns were much harder to come by, legally, back then. I find myself no different with my children, and I blame it on our evolution vrs our current information reality. Even when something weird happens locally, you might not have heard of it if it didn't make the paper, now its all over facebook (such as the "Jew children" incident in my neighborhood). When another guy got of his car to take pictures of someones children outside here about 3 blocks away and the mother approached him, he sped away, that too was reported, on facebook. If you want to look up sex offenders you can, and see where they are in relation to you. All stuff we couldn't do. Hell my parents let me go with a Catholic deacon out of state on a trip just me and him (imagine that now).
    I remember the culture of fear when I was a kid in the '80s. I must've been in kindergarten when I noticed that my grandma wasn't giving out homemade cookies on Halloween anymore. Around that time some guy in Houston had poisoned his own kids' Halloween candy in order to collect the life insurance. Just his own kids, and not for the other trick or treaters. In the days before Snopes, that news report spread throughout school boards and Parent Teacher Associations. Before you knew it, school districts and elementary school principals were sending out panicky letters to parents, warning them to check all their kids' candy for razors, hypodermic needles, and cyanide. Those letters never stopped, and now parents just bring their kids to a school or church parking lot for a "trunk or treat" where the kids never even leave the lot.

    There was a sociology study conducted over about 30 years. The researchers tracked a few dozen suburban kids in the 1970s, just to see how far they typically traveled from home by themselves. These kids often traveled within a 15 mile radius. They'd get on their bikes in the morning, go off to who knows where, and then get back for dinner. That was during an age of steadily rising crime rates nationwide. Fast forward 30 years and those kids were fully grown with families of their own. The researchers wanted to do the same with the grown adults' kids. Most of those children didn't leave the front yard without adult supervision. One of them couldn't even be interviewed without a parent in the room, just in case the sociologists were scary child molesters. These hand-wringing, anxious, overprotective, helicopter parents had grown up in a Sandlot childhood. It's not like they were coddled as children. This paranoia was taught to them as adults.

    That being said I don't think its that fear thats driving the public arming directly, but the internet is sure helping. With every shooting an excuse to blame gun ownership, and Hilary Clinton saying the 2nd amendment is basically void, (from what I gather, I'm NOT wasting time watching debates), the "vibe" gets out fast. Obama talks, people buy ammo basically. Finding .22 is still hard in some places (I'm still not sure why .22 but whatever), .380 was hard for a while as well, and many places still limit you on even the most common 9mm. Which reminds me I should pick up some .380 tonight.
    Whenever the NRA president goes on a rant about "jack-booted government thugs," it is meant to bring more anti-government people into the NRA's membership. When he goes on the news and shrieks that Obama is "afraid of Americans" because the Marines are upgrading their vehicle pool, it drives the more unstable members to buy ammo. Whenever a school shooting happens and the various gun enthusiast publications put up ads warning about people losing their 2nd Amendment rights, it hikes up sales. People like LaPierre haven't lost their marbles. What they're doing is meticulously calculated to whip their supporters into a frenzy and buy more stuff. I think I could sell them volcano insurance when they're in such a frenetic state.

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