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Thread: TROY - BBC

  1. #121

    Default Re: TROY - BBC



    If you want to be East Asian, you must write your own fan fiction.
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  2. #122
    HannibalExMachina's Avatar Just a sausage
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    Default Re: TROY - BBC

    you use PC alot.

    i doesnt mean what you think it does, gramps.

    one thing wannabee justinian is right about, i love it when regressives get triggered by the progress they cant stop.

    next stop: THE DARK TOWER!
    Last edited by HannibalExMachina; July 23, 2017 at 07:00 PM.

  3. #123
    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default Re: TROY - BBC

    So now your changing it into an argument about what Politically Correct means. Who doesn't have an argument again? I can't remember, please remind me.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

  4. #124
    HannibalExMachina's Avatar Just a sausage
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    Default Re: TROY - BBC

    by no means, i know you guys cant accept the meaning of a word that doesnt agree with your agenda.

    as to your question, you have still have no argument. all you have is: i dont like this thing that is incompatible with my ideology.

    thats why i didnt buy your apologism about sticking to the source material. its too "PC" for you, thats all that matters.

    and of course it does. theyll change a thousand things, thats the nature of an adaptation, and youll still be hung up on black zeus.

    but ive wasted enough time on this, it was pretty obvious from the start. not like you wasted several posts on how "THERES NO BLACKS IN THE ILLIAD"

    we know that, dude. we know thats what important to you. sadly.

  5. #125
    Påsan's Avatar Hva i helvete?
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    Default Re: TROY - BBC

    I think its more about a Greek hero being played by a guy that cant possibly pass for a Greek. So immersion is out the window. And i can understand the actual Greeks being a bit miffed about it.
    Last edited by Påsan; July 23, 2017 at 09:09 PM.

  6. #126
    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default Re: TROY - BBC

    Quote Originally Posted by HannibalExMachina View Post
    by no means, i know you guys cant accept the meaning of a word that doesnt agree with your agenda.

    as to your question, you have still have no argument. all you have is: i dont like this thing that is incompatible with my ideology.

    thats why i didnt buy your apologism about sticking to the source material. its too "PC" for you, thats all that matters.

    and of course it does. theyll change a thousand things, thats the nature of an adaptation, and youll still be hung up on black zeus.

    but ive wasted enough time on this, it was pretty obvious from the start. not like you wasted several posts on how "THERES NO BLACKS IN THE ILLIAD"

    we know that, dude. we know thats what important to you. sadly.
    What guys and what agenda?

    My ideology? How about history?

    It isn't about how PC it is but if we are being PC then it is an inherent problem because the Illiad was never PC to begin with, it is the complete opposite.

    Your assertion that changes won't bother me is baseless, what other changes have they made that I would know about if the damn thing hasn't aired yet.

    There are no Blacks in the Illiad and that is important to the source material. That would be like if I shoehorned a White guy into Three Kingdoms or Shaka Zulu, it just doesn't make sense.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

  7. #127
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: TROY - BBC

    Quote Originally Posted by HannibalExMachina View Post
    gramps

    wannabee justinian
    You can make the same argument you're making without resorting to asinine personal attacks on other forum members, which, friendly reminder, is against the Terms of Service.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Oda Nobunaga View Post
    There are no Blacks in the Illiad and that is important to the source material. That would be like if I shoehorned a White guy into Three Kingdoms or Shaka Zulu, it just doesn't make sense.
    I've come to not care about this "minorities playing whites" theme so much after seeing snippets of those black Shakespeare productions, but I do see your point. If the concept was applied to say, Chinese people, particularly something like characters of the ROTK novels (in turn portraying real historical figures of the Three Kingdoms period), then I'm sure people in China would be scratching their heads if not demanding an end to the production in online crusades. Then again I thought that Japanese movie about ancient Romans and modern toilets was hilarious looking (and it had a bunch of Japanese people playing as ancient Romans).

    Perhaps when some black people get offended when white people "steal" their roles in certain films there's a justification for it, due to the historical way in which Hollywood denied them their own roles for decades in early film. That's more the sins of the father kind of thing, though, so fairly irrelevant in 2017. For the Iliad I'm perhaps a little less concerned because the whole thing is almost pure mythology (with perhaps a hint of truth in Homer's tales regarding historical events in the Mycenaean period of Greece and Asia Minor). I think I'd be far more concerned with the random casting choice of a black guy playing Philip II of Macedon with a white son Alexander the Great, or a black guy playing the Greek king Pyrrhus of Epirus as he invades Italy with his African elephants, charging against lines of Korean-looking Romans, led by their commander Manius Curius Dentatus, played by actor and singer/songwriter PSY, the "Gangnam Style" guy. Just think of the endless combinations, Oda!

  8. #128
    Commissar Caligula_'s Avatar The Ecstasy of Potatoes
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    Default Re: TROY - BBC

    The Marvel movie Dr. Strange replaced an Asian man from the comics, with a Celtic woman didn't it? Surely that's as bad a thing?



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    Default Re: TROY - BBC

    Quote Originally Posted by Påsan View Post
    I think its more about a Greek hero being played by a guy that cant possibly pass for a Greek. So immersion is out the window.
    Indeed. And this is not surrealism (this isn't a pipe ) but supposedly something aspiring to be about the trojan war. If you want the viewers already being forced to make it about something else - strange casting - then you are only damaging your own show, Bbc. It doesn't take gay Sherlock to figure this out
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
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  10. #130

    Default Re: TROY - BBC

    That's why science fiction is easier, you expect the cast to be multi racial, something for everyone.

    How many films or television productions have a dwarf as one of the leading characters?

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  11. #131
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: TROY - BBC

    Quote Originally Posted by Condottiere 40K View Post
    That's why science fiction is easier, you expect the cast to be multi racial, something for everyone.

    How many films or television productions have a dwarf as one of the leading characters?

    Imagine if Tyrion was played by a black dwarf, though. It already would have been a very problematic (and utterly needless) choice Bbc could have easily used other race-than-the-character actors in roles not as protagonistic, eg not as Achilles. Even Zeus would be ok - though Zeus himself was not needed in the show, imo in the first place ^^
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
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  12. #132
    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default Re: TROY - BBC

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    I've come to not care about this "minorities playing whites" theme so much after seeing snippets of those black Shakespeare productions, but I do see your point. If the concept was applied to say, Chinese people, particularly something like characters of the ROTK novels (in turn portraying real historical figures of the Three Kingdoms period), then I'm sure people in China would be scratching their heads if not demanding an end to the production in online crusades. Then again I thought that Japanese movie about ancient Romans and modern toilets was hilarious looking (and it had a bunch of Japanese people playing as ancient Romans).

    Perhaps when some black people get offended when white people "steal" their roles in certain films there's a justification for it, due to the historical way in which Hollywood denied them their own roles for decades in early film. That's more the sins of the father kind of thing, though, so fairly irrelevant in 2017. For the Iliad I'm perhaps a little less concerned because the whole thing is almost pure mythology (with perhaps a hint of truth in Homer's tales regarding historical events in the Mycenaean period of Greece and Asia Minor). I think I'd be far more concerned with the random casting choice of a black guy playing Philip II of Macedon with a white son Alexander the Great, or a black guy playing the Greek king Pyrrhus of Epirus as he invades Italy with his African elephants, charging against lines of Korean-looking Romans, led by their commander Manius Curius Dentatus, played by actor and singer/songwriter PSY, the "Gangnam Style" guy. Just think of the endless combinations, Oda!
    That Japanese movie does look very funny. But it is essentially a comedy and the Japanese character basically says how weird they look, a hint that he is not supposed to be Asian.

    I'm not sure of any Black roles that were stolen by White actors. I am actually curious now.

    Actually in China they got their jimmies pretty ruffled when they were going to cast Ken Watanabe in Red Cliff. Apparently looking Asian isn't enough. Though they did cast a Japanese-Chinese actor from Taiwan as Zhuge Liang so... ?

    As for stage plays, not really an issue. It is just a play and they are looking for actors to portray a character, particularly skilled actors in the role and it isn't even an issue since the whole thing is about the acting itself. With a film or television show it is about more than that. Anyway when Caesar was played by a Black man in a Shakespeare play I had no problems, they also had a Black man play Brutus in another production. People actually said that it was racist to have a Black man play the traitor Brutus as it reflected poorly on Black people as a whole.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caligula View Post
    The Marvel movie Dr. Strange replaced an Asian man from the comics, with a Celtic woman didn't it? Surely that's as bad a thing?
    I don't know much about Dr. Strange but they actually changed another character into an Asian man. Changing characters always sucks. Someone who doesn't know anything about the material probably wouldn't care or notice. For instance why would you get the "red haired Achilles" to be played by a Black person? One of the defining characteristics for Achilles' was his hair. Just about anyone would realize that ancient Greeks were not Black. Memnon is pretty much where the line would be drawn and even then it is logically inconsistent.

    The other thing is whether this is part of an agenda. We know for a fact that BBC likes to cast minority actors as much as possible, even when it doesn't make sense. So my assertion that this is basically affirmative action is probably not far off and at worst BBC is trolling us using tax payer money just so they can make some kind of statement.
    A more extreme example is the History Channel's "Battles BC" where they specifically portrayed Hamilcar and Hannibal using Black actors for Black History month. If you look up the air date for that episode it aired at the start of March and had promotional material about celebrating Black History.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

  13. #133

    Default Re: TROY - BBC

    If a black dwarf played Tyrion, Tywin's paternity suspicions would have a great deal of substance.
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  14. #134
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: TROY - BBC

    Quote Originally Posted by Condottiere 40K View Post
    If a black dwarf played Tyrion, Tywin's paternity suspicions would have a great deal of substance.
    Not really, one doesn't have to care about disbelief. As long as actors get work

    Alternatively, cast Tywin as black too.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
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  15. #135
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    Default Re: TROY - BBC

    Quote Originally Posted by Condottiere 40K View Post
    If a black dwarf played Tyrion, Tywin's paternity suspicions would have a great deal of substance.
    I remember some fierce Black dragon.... Blood of the Dragons, you know?

    @No Blacks around Troy: What about Memnon, the Son of Eos?

  16. #136
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: TROY - BBC

    If you have absolutely got to have black actors as main protagonists in greek/roman stuff, you could try an adaptation of The Aethiopika, by Heliodoros? I mean he did have a considerable plot-twist just so as to accomplish that ^^
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  17. #137

    Default Re: TROY - BBC

    Quote Originally Posted by Copperknickers II View Post
    As I mention above, if it was accurate to the myth it would have all sorts of exotic characters and gods and so on that it obviously won't have. It's an interpretation tailored to its audience as is every adaptation of the Iliad, it's not like this is some obscure historical curiosity being dredged up for its historical value, it's the greatest epic of our civilisation and it's been done to death in every possible interpretation. History is one aspect of it, and not considered by anyone to be a particularly important aspect, so historicity of the Bronze Age certainly shouldn't be considered a guiding principle any more than it is in a new adaptation of Swan Lake by the Bolshoi or a Shakespeare play. It's a non-issue and it's not important, the Iliad is no more history than Game of Thrones is.
    I don't think you got the point.


    Yep. If you want your own version write to ARD, the BBC is a British tv station and other countries' opinions are totally irrelevant. I had the pleasure of visiting the ARD 'headquarters' in Berlin last month for work, I understand ARD is the largest public broadcaster on earth and it seemed to be very well set up, so I'm sure it has the budget.
    I don't think you know how their budget works.
    Anyway, I don't want a German version (way to miss the point), which would be just as terrible as a British or American one. I want a version that's faithful to the original, and that means casting Mediterranean people. I suppose one could have NW Europeans or Africans play some exotic side character.

    Anyway, why the hell are you so focussed on Germany and me being allegedly German? It has nothing to do with the topic.


    Fantasy, as opposed to the Iliad, which is a po-faced work of gritty Bronze age realism.
    If you don't know the difference between fantasy and ancient mythology, I see no reason to explain it.


    Utter rubbish. It's because excluding actors on grounds of race without good reason is racism, pure and simple, world politics doesn't come into it.
    Ignoring context is autistic as well as idiotic. And these actors wouldn't be "excluded on grounds of race", they would simply not be considered. Just as you don't consider a man to play a female role in a movie, or vice versa. But apparently, those fine distinctions are lost on you.


    You seem to have a problem with blacks and Asians, but are broadly OK with Brits. So it's really the melanin which is the problem and not the geographical origin? Racism, exposed.
    Yeah, of course that's what you make of it. Because you don't understand context (see above), nor do you care for exactness (also see above).
    And also because anybody who's even just critical of mass immigration is a rayciss, amirite?


    Why does skin colour matter at all, you mean? A good question. You seem to get the general point, without seeing the inherent hypocrisy in your own argument which states that actors can't play certain roles because of their skin colour. As to why skin colour matters to young black Brits, it's because they are frequently told they can't do things because of their skin colour, and how it's better to stick to their own community and let others stick to theirs. This pressure comes from inside their own community as well as from outside but it won't be combatted until we start mixing things up and showing people that they can look past the skin colour.
    That's a non-argument. When I say black people can identify with white characters and vice versa, I don't mean identifying with characters that are supposed to be one race/colour in the source material, but are played by an individual of another because of ideological reasons.
    But yeah, when I object to Egyptians being played by NW Europeans, it's OK, but when I do the same with black Africans in a Greek setting, it's suddenly "racism"? I wonder who's the hypocritical side here.


    Memnon was supposedly the son of Tithonus, a Trojan prince, and the goddess of the dawn, Eos, so it's highly debateable whether he was Ethiopian himself. At best he was half-Ethiopian, and that's if you think the Greeks considered Eos Ethiopian which is not likely. It's unclear why he became king of the Ethiopians, some Greeks believed it was because he actually was Ethiopian and his epithet 'son of the son of the dawn' meant not that he was the daughter of a goddess per se, but that he came from the land of the rising sun, sometimes identified as Ethiopia which was considered to be the closest place to the sun in the world due to its eastern longitude and its climate. Others believed the link with Ethiopia was totally tangential and he was actually raised in the West, among the Atlas mountains. We don't really know exactly what they thought because we don't have many sources on him and they disagree. The Aethiopis, the epic poem which recounts the story of Memnon and his arrival in Troy, is lost.
    Well, that's one way of retracting one's argument, I suppose. Would be nice to mark a literary quote as such, though.


    Quote Originally Posted by HannibalExMachina View Post
    apparently, some people here have never heard of blackface. much white victim, so race, very prosecute.
    Total non sequitur. As is the rest of your posts in this thread.

  18. #138

    Default Re: TROY - BBC

    Quote Originally Posted by Caligula View Post
    The Marvel movie Dr. Strange replaced an Asian man from the comics, with a Celtic woman didn't it? Surely that's as bad a thing?
    They did, and it recieved a lot of criticism at the time. The reason provided by Disney for not casting an Asian was to not hurt the feelings of the chinese audience in the Asian market with a Stereotype...

    it is all about the money!

    I've come to not care about this "minorities playing whites" theme so much after seeing snippets of those black Shakespeare productions, but I do see your point. If the concept was applied to say, Chinese people, particularly something like characters of the ROTK novels (in turn portraying real historical figures of the Three Kingdoms period), then I'm sure people in China would be scratching their heads if not demanding an end to the production in online crusades. Then again I thought that Japanese movie about ancient Romans and modern toilets was hilarious looking (and it had a bunch of Japanese people playing as ancient Romans).
    Thermae Romane is a comedy,and parody, and it is hilarious as well the Anime (where the romans do indeed look like romans,and the japanese look like japanese lol)

    At anycase with this things it is all about context, read that and you will know if it fits to have a different cast for the characters.
    Last edited by Knight of Heaven; July 24, 2017 at 11:04 AM.

  19. #139

    Default Re: TROY - BBC

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight of Heaven View Post
    They did, and it recieved a lot of criticism at the time. The reason provided by Disney for not casting an Asian was to not hurt the feelings of the chinese audience in the Asian market with a Stereotype...

    it is all about the money!
    Actually, AFAIK the real reason was because the character was Tibetan, and as a foreign movie producer you can basically either have Tibetan characters or be allowed to show your movie in China. Hollywood and Disney, being the assembly of spineless turds they are, don't want to lose out on that lucrative Chinese market.
    It's as if the US government banned all foreign productions that featured Navajos.

  20. #140
    TheDarkKnight's Avatar Compliance will be rewarded
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    Default Re: TROY - BBC

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    don't want to lose out on that lucrative Chinese market.
    It's as if the US government banned all foreign productions that featured Navajos.
    Can you honestly say that if you were a movie producer you wouldn't do the same if it meant an extra few hundred million dollars?

    Besides...how many Tibetan actors are there, anyway?
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