Having trouble with French defensive formation.

[AttilaKhan]

Greetings. This is my first post on this forum.
I love Total War(only have Medieval 2 and Empire), and I've been playing a lot of ETW recently(I tend to play France).
Recently, I made this defensive formation and it just doesn't work against the AI. I've made multiple iterations, tried it around 4 times, yet it always fails, even though I'm so confident it can work. This is what it looks like: B B G G LI L L L L L L LI L G G GEN G G



That is- B: Bulkeley's Regiment
L: Line Infantry
LI: Light Infantry
G: Grenadiers
G: Garde Du Corps(elite French cav, same as Life Guards)

So, what happens is, every time I make this, the enemy always targets a specific side(NOT FLANK). For example, they'll completely ignore my left half and concentrate all their forces on my right. I'll re-position my left to encircle them, yet they crush my fairly quickly(so quickly in fact that I'm forced to use that one reserve Line very early on and even that gets defeated). So I end up always being sort of separated and unable to support any losing infantry and get separated, and end up losing, even after killing their general. I use the light(chasseurs, or however it's spelled), to harass enemy infantry, defeat their cav with my cav, get a few good charges into the back of their infantry, but I still lose.
Even if they don't target a particular side and come head-on, they still end up winning.
What am I doing wrong?

[AttilaKhan]

That is- B: Bulkeley's Regiment
L: Line Infantry
LI: Light Infantry
G: Grenadiers
G: Garde Du Corps(elite French cav, same as Life Guards)

[Zajuts149]

First question is: Where is your artillery? A couple of cannon units placed in the middle of your formation has reach to cover both flanks.

[AttilaKhan]

That's the thing: I didn't have any. I tried to go for a formation without any artillery.

[poa]

the gun is OP in ETW,
and since AI insist on attacking no matter what,
its a free victory every time.

place your units in a corner, infantry on both sides reaches the blue line that is the end of the battlefield, guns in the middle,
now wait for AI to walk in front of your narrow formation, let cannister do what it does,
have a cup of tea, read a book, while the game semi-auto-resolve.

this "tactic" will work without guns too, but you will take more hits

[Akarios]

First off, your line is too long for any part to be supportive. Even running, troops will have a hard time getting from one end of the line to the other, which is why you're getting creamed on a flank. It's better to use 2 or 3 lines of infantry and a shorter line. (i.e. a deeper overall formation) That way a simple incline from troops on one flank will envelope the AI as it attempts to attack the other flank, while the 2nd and 3rd line of infantry act as a reserve and a fire brigade. It shouldn't be hard to flank the AI troops as they come in with your reserves. One of the worst things about the battle AI is it doesn't think in terms of reserves (meaning they tend to throw everything at a single point in a single unsupported line), so a simple incline to provide enfilading fire from your infantry, then using the reserves to extend and flank on the threatened side should be more than enough to squash the AI flat, even without artillery.

[Zajuts149]

To go without guns is tougher, but to amend your formation, I'd switch the surplus Line Reg with a light cav/lancer, so you can chase down routing units until they shatter. Also, pull back your grenadiers to where the surplus Line is, and have them be a reserve. Push your light infantry forwards of the formation, and spread them out. Remember, the British units are better shooters than the French, but less keen with the bayonet. Engage them in melee if you have to. British line has better morale, so make sure they get some flank charges once you're in melee.

[AttilaKhan]

First off, your line is too long for any part to be supportive. Even running, troops will have a hard time getting from one end of the line to the other, which is why you're getting creamed on a flank. It's better to use 2 or 3 lines of infantry and a shorter line. (i.e. a deeper overall formation) That way a simple incline from troops on one flank will envelope the AI as it attempts to attack the other flank, while the 2nd and 3rd line of infantry act as a reserve and a fire brigade. It shouldn't be hard to flank the AI troops as they come in with your reserves. One of the worst things about the battle AI is it doesn't think in terms of reserves (meaning they tend to throw everything at a single point in a single unsupported line), so a simple incline to provide enfilading fire from your infantry, then using the reserves to extend and flank on the threatened side should be more than enough to squash the AI flat, even without artillery.

Thank you so much. I knew my line was too long. And yes, my flanks did keep getting broken, even though I'd try to prevent that with the elite cav. Will definitely try this out. Thank you.

To go without guns is tougher, but to amend your formation, I'd switch the surplus Line Reg with a light cav/lancer, so you can chase down routing units until they shatter. Also, pull back your grenadiers to where the surplus Line is, and have them be a reserve. Push your light infantry forwards of the formation, and spread them out. Remember, the British units are better shooters than the French, but less keen with the bayonet. Engage them in melee if you have to. British line has better morale, so make sure they get some flank charges once you're in melee.

Yeah, you're right. Sacrificing the guns was not a good idea. I did not know about the Brits being better shooters but weaker melee against the French! Thanks! I'll try that out.



Thank you everyone, I've understood most of the flaws, and I'll try fixing them(maybe scrapping the entire formation altogether).

[Akarios]

Another thing to do (only if you're not up against melee infantry, which will chew up this approach) is before Fire By Rank is available, extend your regiments so there are only 2 lines each. This has the effect of increasing firepower in that regiment (since only the front rank actually fires) up to 50%. As stated, don't try that against melee infantry, as they'll break the line and your unit won't have the depth to resist. Nevertheless, if you want to try it against melee infantry, back up your 2-rank infantry regiments with other regiments which can charge forward and help hold them in check.

[Patronus86]

1) Keep your general near the problem areas (where you have the most contact with the enemy). His presence always helps the nearby troops.

2) Always keep a reserve, to bolster wavering section of the line or to head off a flanking attempt.

3) 2 line formations are better if you don't have Fire By Rank. That said, do what you can to keep your units close together so they can support one another. Your goal in any infantry musket battle should be to have more of your units firing on a smaller number of enemy units so as to have fire superiority.

4) All things being equal in a musket battle (infantry type, experience, ect.), it is crap shoot who will win if it is 1-on-1. You need to introduce an advantage to the musket battle to cement your chances for victory: artillery support (grape shot works very well at demoralizing enemy formations); Cav charges on the enemy's flanks or rear; firing on the enemy's flank or rear; putting better quality infantry against the enemy's lower quality troops.

5) If you find a portion of your line is wavering or taking serious casualties, move them back out of the enemy's range. They enemy will readjust and continue to engage, but continue to retrograde as needed to buy your losing troops some time until your other forces can finish their own battles and come to bare on the enemy.

6) Go get Darth Mod. It adds to the unit size (120 men units don't have a lot of losses to take) and adjust unit morale to make the battles a bit longer and more involved.

[Izsx]

I know this is an old topic, but I generally love talking strategy/formation. Currently playing through a very hard French grand campaign and i've been experimenting with a whole bunch of formations that are proving to be hugely successful.

Drop the huge line of infantry that you have there, first of all. Spreading your line can be effective in certain situations, but more than anything, it makes filling the gaps a hell of a lot harder. Cavalry shouldn't be used to plug gaps in a wavering line; it should be used as a method of routing almost shattered enemy soldiers, or counter-charging enemy cavalry. Charging into a line of 100+ eager soldiers is bound to get your cavalry completely wiped out.

You need artillery. It can make or break entire battles, and with effective MANUAL control (the automatic targeting system is rubbish), you can route units before they even hit your front lines. Never stack artillery in one place, either. Giant batteries of artillery, while certainly effective on paper, limit your ability to control hard pushes on flanks, and don't allow your army to be mobile (i'll mention this a lot later) around flank pushes. Cannister shot is one of the most devastating weapons a general can have under his command, and used well, it can absolute wreck front-line battles. A lot of newer players will put artillery on high ground, soldiers in front, and try to limit how 'exposed' there artillery is. Again, this isn't a terrible strategy, however in practice, it severely limits what your cannons can do.

Try to set up your formations based around cannons as the central piece; the focal point of your line defence. I often find something like this works supremely well (change out units for what you have), and i'll explain why after:

LI LI C LI C LI C LI LI

Directly behind this front-line, and centered behind the middle cannon, I make my second line a bit longer (and more spread) than the front-line, with a format that follows:

CA G G G CA

LI = Line Infantry
C = Cannons
CA = Cavalry
G = Grenadiers

While the line isn't hugely long, it allows for one often overlooked feature of any good army; mobility.

Mobility is something that's also often not considered with newer players to Empire, but it is quite possibly the most fundamental feature to winning battles. As a Prussian general once said 'The key to victory is out-marching your opponent' (Something like that anyway). Mobility can be the difference between victory and defeat. If you can't react to your opponent quickly enough, you've already lost the battle.

A hugely long front-line means you will struggle to mobilise where the threat is greatest. You have all your shiny soldiers, lined-up perfectly and evenly, ready for some intense volley action against an equal opponent. The only issue? The enemy suddenly starts swinging to your right flank, and you've only got two groups of soldiers effectively in position. All of a sudden you have to mobilise your army; and quickly.The result is that it will take you a LOT longer to mobilise to deal with the sudden threat, and by the time your soldiers arrive, the battle could already be changing for the worst. A mobile army is an effective army, so the smaller your front-line is, the quicker soldiers from flanks can react to threats as they pop up. There's a reason Blitzkrieg was so effective as a more modern day example. Or even take a look at the Viet Cong and how they used mobility and smaller numbers to achieve victory.

I like the formation I mentioned above as it allows plugging of gaps easier. Take for example India. You're coming up against an Indian army full of melee units and riflemen. If they begin charging your cannons/lines when they get near, you can quickly push out your grenadiers/second line to deal with the threat, and keep your artillery/vulnerable units a bit more protected. Keeping a mobile second line is hugely crucial. Keeping that same battle format above will also allow you to utilise more complex strategies such as defensive flank wedges, or turning around and slowly enveloping your opponent, while keeping artillery as the central damage points of your line.

What do I mean by defensive wedge and enveloping? I'll explain best as I can without the use of proper visual aids. Defensive wedging is sort of like this. You have your line all nice and straight, when the enemy decides to throw what they have at one particular flank of yours. Remember those two lots of line infantry you have on each flank in the front-line? Keep those grouped, and swing them backwards at a 45 degree angle, to set-up a diagonal firing line.

/ C LI C LI C \

You keep cohesion with your cannons still at the front, it takes seconds to move your flanks, and you can brace for a charge/enemy infantry trying to swamp behind you.

Alternatively, the enemy begins pushing more towards your centre (fantastic for your cannister shot set-up), so instead of rotating them backwards in a defensive 45 degree angle, you swing them forward to encircle the cannons more, and slowly 'envelop' the opponent:

\ C LI C LI C /

I am by no means a strategist, nor an expert in the slightest on battle formations, so bear it in mind that this might not be the most effective strategy out there, but it's something that i've slowly worked towards, and found that I can literally use the format as above, and wipe the floor with any threat I have. I decided for and giggles to take it as far as I could into India and see how it worked against the very mobile and numerous armies of the Maratha confederacy, and after conquering most of the country in a couple of years, I couldn't have been happier with the results.

[Quintus Hortensius Hortalus]

...

Great guide, interesting to read! I hope I learnt a bit for my future battles.

[Izsx]

Great guide, interesting to read! I hope I learnt a bit for my future battles.

Hey, thanks mate! Didn't know if anyone would even see it, but I appreciate the kind words!

[divilly]

This guide will certainly be useful when I adventure again into 80 units per amy battles. Those are terrible