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Thread: Tactic to win as HRE in vh/vh?

  1. #1

    Default Tactic to win as HRE in vh/vh?

    Initially, I thought every faction was going to be very tough, but the reality is that it is not.

    Spain was intially tough, but once I took out Portugal, the rest was rather easy. It was my first game so it took me a while to take care of the Emirate of Cordoba, or its bastarazied name THE MOORS, but once that happened..I took France, Western Africa and Italy without much problems.

    I played as Scots. Conquered upwards and Ireland, then English down below and the rest is basically snowballed. Once you have a strong base of operations the game is literally continous.

    I then played as the English, same thing as Scots but easier.

    I played as Venetians, Sicily and Milan. Its basically the same thing, just spam Italian Spear Militia over and over. That 13 ARMOR gives it a HUGE edge over all units, except Mailed Mounted Knights, during the first 30 turns or so. They're simply unstopable, unless you have alot of more calvary and can outflank them, but its easier for them to re-produce cheap armies than it is for you to keep making more and more calvary.

    Then I played as France, and I must say, it was my easiest game yet. It took me, literally, 15 turns to take all of the french rebels, both iberian rebel provinces, kick the english out and then charge them for a ceasefire (while destroying all of its armies in one single stroke) and building up two cities and two fortresses. So now I have infantry and calvary superior to everyone else, so whats the point? HRE is almost crumbling, Milan is down to half a stack and an empty city, Venice has some armies but they still cant match mine, Danes, Poland, Spain, Moors are all worthless. So thats a done deal. The 100 years war lasted 1 turn in fighting and 5 turns in siege attrition, and thats only because I wanted to see if I could actually persuade the English to give up their french position - which they didnt - hell they didnt even want a cease fire until I got the province from them..and they payed 10,000 gold too.

    So, whats my problem? HRE. For starters:

    It starts completely surrounded by rebel provinces. That means that every faction around it ex[ands into those provinces, and then THROUGH the empire, not anywhere else. Danes always go south, Polish always go West, French sometimes go East, Venetians and Milan always go north, as Sicilians. The only one who has yet to fight me is Hungary, and thats because they expand southwards.

    That's still not the problem.

    Its units are also meagre. Until you get cities and fortresses, you'll have to deal with larger odds, more armies, and a crippled economy with sub-par infantry in an infantry dominated sphere. You dont get good archers, infantry, or calvary. You're just average, fighting good Polish/French calvary and good Sicilian/Milanese/Venetian/Danish infantry.

    And that's still not the problem.

    Your economy is wrecked. Half your provinces are castles, and theyre all crappy, undeveloped castles. You're also at war with all of your neighbors, so that means that your trading isn't going to exactly "flow"...

    And yet, that's not the biggest problem. The biggest problem is that the Alps and river crossings are so poorly placed, that it is nearly impossible to correctly support one end of your empire with another. You're under constant siege, by someone, so you need archers and spearmen like mad. you dont have the money to keep developing your economy, your units, or getting calvary. So you get an isolated section of your territory under siege by superior numbers, carrying a bunch of superior infantry, and guess what: YOU ALWAYS HAVE TO ****ING FIGHT THEM! Why? Because they took out oil, so rams ALWAYS, and I do mean ALWAYS, break through. How does a ram with peasants break through a fortress? Someone explain that one to me.

    So, our overview of the HRE:

    Surrounded by enemies, leaving it a question of WHEN and not IF they will attack.

    Inferior infantry.

    Crippled economy.

    Due to crippled economy, you cant field enough calvary in order to beat back the endless waves of Milanese/Venetian italian spearmen, and/or saxon foot knights from sicily.

    Map doesnt help you one bit with army movement.

    Venice and Milan, are somehow, powerhouses. Economically and Militarily they simply own. I **** you not when I tell you that Im an experienced player and by turn 20 I am at war with no one and a 3 province faction has a bigger and better army, economy and production capacity than I have when I control 11 provinces -- most of which are cities (since I change them in order to make enough gold to support the ammounts of troops Im constantly cooking).

    Therefore, I believe that the only way to be able to beat the AI in vh/vh as HRE is a pre-emptive attack on Milan, followed by attacks on Sicily and Venice ASAP. Once those three are out of the "picture" then you can deal with France, Poland and Danes with quite some ease if Im nto mistaken. The foremost problem here is that, aside from Sicily, Milan and Venice are able to re-fill their ranks at a small price and be back on the front before you're able to a) siege one of their cities, or b) re-group and re-train.

  2. #2
    vikrant's Avatar The Messiah of innocence
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    Default Re: Tactic to win as HRE in vh/vh?

    Moved To Battle Planning
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Tactic to win as HRE in vh/vh?

    I just started an HRE campaign on Vh/Vh, and yea Milan and Venice are insane. Of course, with the dummy AI I have 7 heroic victories stemming from sieges on Bologne, Venice, and Vienna. Venice really wants Venice back after I took it, and they have 2 full stacks on the way while I can't even reinforce the city =/

    I have a full stack attacking Denmark before they get a chance to move down, and luckily enough it seems France is occupied with Spain and Poland is expanding in the opposite direction, so I have to contend with Venice at the moment. Milan offered Vassal status (strangely enough after I killed off a full stack of theirs) and I took it to get some respite so I can deal with Venice.

    Its really hard so far with no real strength in units, using just militias and peasant archers to fight full stack Milanese and Venetian armies =/

    If I can hold off Venice and Milan doesn't decide to break the alliance, the outlook isn't quite so grim.

  4. #4
    lowbaccaus's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Tactic to win as HRE in vh/vh?

    Im playing a HRE vh/vh campaign and I find the very best way to go is to attack Venice and Denmark immediately, as soon as you can scramble together garrison units to form an army.

    I waited for Venice to move its garrison out of Venice and then I besieged Venice, forcing them to recall their army; but at least it was out of the city where I could beat them, in a hard fought battle that could have easily gone the other way. It's essential for the Venetian army to be fought in the field as you need Venice's income right away, not after a 5 turn siege.

    As for Denmark I noticed their heir walking around with a small army and decided on the fly to take him out: easily done, and with the Danes' field army gone their one city was a piece of cake to take out in a slow siege.

    At lot happened after that, but at least I had a solid base. Such unwarranted attacks against Denmark and Venice lowered my relations with the pope substantially, and as a result EVERY FACTION around me began using that as an excuse to attack me. Best option I think is to leave the western rebel provinces open, so that they serve as a buffer between you and France, after the situation in Italy is secured then they can be dealt with.

    But the real problem for me has been Hungary, they have an insane army, and I'm admittedly kinda afraid to face them in the field as their horse archers just tear me up; I just let them come to me and smashed their magnificent armies on the gates of Vienna

    I'm on around turn 40-50 and I've pretty much conquered all of Germany, Italy, all of Scandinavia, Marseilles , Rheims, the Balkans, and parts of Poland and hungary - and im holding my own in the holy land. I'm pretty much set.

    Now I've just got to wait and see what these Mongols i hear everyone *****ing about are made of.
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Tactic to win as HRE in vh/vh?

    Well I blitzkrieged Venice, Milan and Denmark. Denmark is out of the map right now, I hold Venice and Milan, and I'm sieging Genoa with an army running and hiding from Venetian forces in roder to keep them occupied..but without Venice they're clearly unable to keep churning out a stupid ammount of troops constantly.

    Milan, on the other hand, has stack and a half that I'm dealing with at the moment. Its kind of annoying that they're able to sustain an army that large with one, sieged, city.

    As for the rest, France is doing next ot nothing in expanding, Poland is expanding as per usual on my Northeaster frontier and will attack soon enough. My best guess si that I have 5 turns or so to finish off Milan, then concentrate on Venice for a few turns before they attack me in the north.

  6. #6
    Hochmeister's Avatar Foederatus
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    Default Re: Tactic to win as HRE in vh/vh?

    I took out Venice and Milan right away, but never attacked Denmark. Now they are huge and hostile, so I definitely paid for it. But thankfully the Pope wants peace between us, so they haven't attacked me again yet.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Tactic to win as HRE in vh/vh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikel View Post
    Therefore, I believe that the only way to be able to beat the AI in vh/vh as HRE is a pre-emptive attack on Milan, followed by attacks on Sicily and Venice ASAP. Once those three are out of the "picture" then you can deal with France, Poland and Danes with quite some ease if Im nto mistaken. The foremost problem here is that, aside from Sicily, Milan and Venice are able to re-fill their ranks at a small price and be back on the front before you're able to a) siege one of their cities, or b) re-group and re-train.
    Exactly what i did.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Tactic to win as HRE in vh/vh?

    @Mikel
    hm had same situation, yet imho late HRE units r some of the coolest; compared to UK is indeed verry chalenging. as far as info in this forum goes, the only "decent" thing to help HRE at vh/vh is to change the value of kings purse, the starting money & ad some decent troops/ remove pesants & give more pop to some towns & castles.
    in adition adding some + to some neighbours will balance the biggining but rest asured the AI of milan, venice & Danish will overcome any low start they had & give serious problems.
    all the above might be neccesary due to the imbalancet HRE start.
    strategy? is ofensive, choosing the higher ground in battle hide cav ( if any) in wooods nearby...i tryed all tricks from RTW but they hardly work. HRE got its name from the sheer power they diplayed; and although overcomed from time to time, HRE was not a compositon of wooden castles, kripled viliges, or a rable of peasants & spear militia in shorts !
    thus imo the above mods will give some credibility in playing as HRE without disturbing the game balance or cheating:hmmm:
    Yours, Delexit

  9. #9

    Default Re: Tactic to win as HRE in vh/vh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lavastein View Post
    in order to keep yourself set you MUST DEFEAT DENMARK IMMEDIATELY. they will blitz you if you do not. Poland can be kept at bay for a while however as they go eastward not west.

    take the nearest castles to ensure you have both a military base to protect your lands and income from areas that you know will not rebel. to deal with denmark go archers, to deal with the italians go cavalry. the french are usually busy minding themselves with engalnd so it may be wise to offer a daughter in alliance or simple ally with them. i would go with allying with the venicians at first so you can beat up on milan as they become mr.strong in the area. sicily will no doubt try to seize your lands as well from the south so be alert. the ai is stupid and archers bring out the worst in them, both for their defences and attach wise. bring as many mailed knights as you can. focus purely on militray expansion or else youll be forced to fight numerous stacks of enemy forces which you can not afford to do with all your lands surrounded by other factions hungry for yours.


    a lot of your cities may be crappy but that doesnt matter. build your border defences. the fact that you have castles can be an advantage. It leaves you with the opertunity to move the bulk of your froces in one direction without upkeep issues.
    Without a sign, his sword the brave man draws, and asks no omen but his country's cause

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  10. #10

    Default Re: Tactic to win as HRE in vh/vh?

    nvm people came up with this plan lmao ssorry..
    Last edited by SIlver General65; November 22, 2006 at 02:38 PM.


    A very bad speller...but have german pride

  11. #11

    Default Re: Tactic to win as HRE in vh/vh?

    At turn 1 migrate to spain keeping bologna as your only defended city.
    They close my modication thread DWWTW ='( please help evryone.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Tactic to win as HRE in vh/vh?

    my first game was HRE on vh/vh ... i dont like the pope telling me to stop killing my anemies so when i was in war with milan, venice, denmark, france at the same time i didnt stop untill i killed them all... i was excomunicated for the whole game... lol ...until i was almost the only catolic faction left ... =)

    just play agressively =)

    EDIT: ohh.. yes... and one more thing! i always try to take ower castles when i am in war with faction... that way i can create more and bigger armies then my anemy and cities are then eazy to capture when AI have no armies =) and also you can defend eazily when you are in castle =) cities are eazily to concer and hareder to keep!
    Last edited by Sitarus Originalus PM-30+; November 25, 2006 at 09:31 AM.
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  13. #13

    Default Re: Tactic to win as HRE in vh/vh?

    Play the Turks if you find the other easy. If you get lucky and beat the Mongols then you are in for a real suprise. The timuruds. After 2 weeks i have finnally beaten them and not even really beaten them. It just took me 100 turns to beat the mongols totally, and beause i ws bussy with them the timuruds came into RUssia. So i got lucky. I have restarted my Turk campaing for 4 times. European armies are easy to beat, but the Turkish and mongolian are hard as hell.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Tactic to win as HRE in vh/vh?

    Im trying many differnet campagien right now im turn 50 in my hre donno im in total war for the moment..


    A very bad speller...but have german pride

  15. #15

    Default Re: Tactic to win as HRE in vh/vh?

    I've played two campaigns as HRE on vh/ vh- one I aborted because my position became intractable, the other I won relatively easily. Maybe the second time I was just lucky but I believe it all came down to what I did in the first 20 or so turns. In the first campaign I only expanded to take Hamburg and Venice and I let all the other rebel provinces fall to my neighbours. I ended up under attack from everyone but Hungary, but while I could handle Denmark, France and Poland, I couldn't deal with constant attacks by Milan, Venice and Sicily on Bologna and Venice- it was impossible to provide adequate reinforcements from Innsbruck to my cities to level the odds against superior Milanese and Venetian militia and Sicilian Norman knights, and it only got worse once they started sending Broken Lances and Famiglia Ducale my way (the HRE definitely gets the short end of the stick as far as city units go). What did I do different the second time? I expanded as fast as I could to take every neighbouring rebel province besides Dijon, which the French grabbed first. This was easy because only Bern, Bruges and Antwerp have large enough garrisons to require you to train new troops or hire mercenaries to capture them. I converted Staufen into a city for revenue purposes, since Bern and Metz defended the frontier (other castles defended the north- eastern frontier though I could probably have converted those to cities anyway since Poland and Hungary usually expand east).

    Revenue overall was not a problem because Antwerp, Bruges and Vienna raked in a huge amount of money from trade (Vienna and Hamburg also have mines), I trained as many merchants as I could and put those of other factions out of business as often as possible (and got the merchants' guild headquarters for it), and I made thousands of florins on every diplomatic deal. At the start always send your diplomat around offering an alliance, trade rights, and map info to everyone you can, and demand in return whatever sum of money is deemed balanced (usually a couple of thousand florins, but sometimes the AI will accept 5,000+). If the AI offers you a ceasefire don't take it- counter-offer them a ceasefire and demand a huge sum of money for it. Don't be afraid to ask for a sum running into the tens of thousands- if the game says the offer is "balanced" the other faction will probably pay it.

    Finally, in the first turn I demolished every building in Bologna, raised taxes to high, withdrew the garrison (except the peasants) and let it fall to rebels. My experience is that your state's foothold in Italy is a liability- the first time round I kept it and was never not under attack by one of the Italian factions. The second time I got rid of it and the Italian factions all fought over it amongst themselves and were too busy to attack me, while the troops I no longer needed to garrison it allowed me to capture Bern early on and convert Staufen to a city.

    As the disclaimer with the product says- "Your game experience may differ". Personally I like to build up a large and advanced army and then unleash it against the world, and the strategy I outlined above provided me with the time and resources necessary to do this, relatively free from interference by my eventual victims. The AI factions will prey on you if your faction is large yet has obvious weaknesses- in my first game Bologna was such a weakness. However if you present them with a frontier of castles, build up strong garrisons when the AI makes threatening moves (i.e. if it brings its troops onto your land) and have rich cities behind them then the AI will tend to go after other AI factions. However, other strategies, like migrating to Spain or simply wiping out one or two rival factions early on are no less valid. A variation on the strategy I used would be to sell Bologna to another faction rather than to give it up to rebels.
    Last edited by Furious Mental; November 28, 2006 at 08:35 AM.

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