Submod or fix for pike-men shield values and for stat_health 2 for some "undead" units

[4th Regiment]

Is there some export_decr_unit for those or I must do it manually as I did in Europa Barbarorum?

Simply, I do not like to play unrealistically - no man can fight after axe in the head of spear in the guts etc, spartan, naked fanatic or not. I tend to trim this to health 1, and increase moral, so they will have unbreakable moral if they are Spartans/barbarians on drugs, but will not be resistant to weapons.

Also, pikemen have big shield values in RS (as in EB ), which with RTW engine will be doubled in phalanx formation making them almost invulnerable to missile fire frontally (again, unrealistic ..they had smaller shields attached to the arm and were more vulnerable to missiles than regular big shield phalanx as they could not raise even those smaller shields for protection (one inch wide shaft of the pikes to offer such a good protection ...so, if shield is 5 or 6 (which is nice small to medium shield, in phalanx they will get it doubled to 10 (or 12) shield value, which is still like in other big shield units )

Anybody already did it?

[Alavaria]

Armor can be pretty good at saving your life. That said, adjusting the lethality for every attack would be troublesome, just think of it as a sort of reverse armor or something.

I do agree with you about the pikemen I guess, it's rather amusing really, to send them into archers etc

[MacBlain]

I don't think we need to think of "hit points" as representing one person sticking a weapon into another person's body. That really wasn't such an important part of ancient battles. The real question is whether the larger dynamic works well. Maybe it does, and maybe it doesn't. RTW involves too many casualties and not enough other factors, so maybe we do need lots of men dying to represent unit deterioration. The game already has very low lethality values, which simulates men threatening each other with their weapons while trying to stay alive rather than just running forward and hacking until they die like Age of Empires units.

There have been several discussions about missile balance. Maybe we should hash something out. I think they're considering some tweaks, or optional tweaks for the next release. I don't use archers at all, and slinger envelopment is probably too effective and important of a strategy. I would suggest that we should consider making archers a little more lethal than is realistic, because they unit-deteriorating effects of missile fire aren't effectively represented in the game engine.

[4th Regiment]

@Alaviria, and @MacBlain, I was thinking only in bringing down to 1 health points to several units in the game which have 2 (not counting elephants, chariots etc), like Spartans and few fanatics units. I did it back in EB times, as it was not realistic to me that naked man or whoever on drugs or not can continue fighting with incapacitated injury. On drugs, or with high moral like Spartans they will have unbreakable moral (I change that) , but they are still mortal and their body have same physiology/mechanics. That is only I want to change. Not for all units in general.

Considering shield value for pikemen, I think 10 (very big shield) is simply very far from realistic. They had smaller shield attached to the arm/shoulder and even that one can not be raised up to protect from incoming missile. They should have shield 5 or 6 (or whatever vallue, but 50, to 60% shield size than units carrying big shield which can protect most of their body) I am still not 100% sure if RS mod use standard RTW engine which doubles that value in pike formations (so 10 becomes 20..) ?

If nobody have not did it, what is export_description_unit file I should change? ( there are those few in folders, and I am not sure which is the working one - I have RTW Gold, and play RS II 2.6 on Alex engine )

[Alavaria]

If nobody have not did it, what is export_description_unit file I should change? ( there are those few in folders, and I am not sure which is the working one - I have RTW Gold, and play RS II 2.6 on Alex engine )

Depends which campaign you are playing.

Which campaign are you playing?

[4th Regiment]

Depends which campaign you are playing.

Which campaign are you playing?

Playing non Roman 0 turn, but I am planing to try 4 seasons per year subomod for non Roman 1 turn

[Alavaria]

Playing non Roman 0 turn, but I am planing to try 4 seasons per year subomod for non Roman 1 turn

There's not a "non-Roman" one, what do you have selected for Faction in the RS2 launcher?

[4th Regiment]

There's not a "non-Roman" one, what do you have selected for Faction in the RS2 launcher?

Sure , but I said that as I was planing to play few non Roman factions (as Roman campaign is very different and I thought it must be in separate folder(s)

Right now playing Pontus, but will try few others for sure.

Even if I play Pontus (or what ever one faction), I will need to change all faction shield sizes (and even moral a bit..as even levy units fight until they loose like 2/3 or so of soldiers) to make battles bit closer to realism (still far away from it)

[Alavaria]

Yes, as the Play_Pontus folder does not have its own EDU, it uses the first one, ie:

Rs2 folder -> data -> export_descr_unit


Some options (eg: Syracuse, Capua, One-turn variants etc) will have their own EDU

[4th Regiment]

Yes, as the Play_Pontus folder does not have its own EDU, it uses the first one, ie:

Rs2 folder -> data -> export_descr_unit


Some options (eg: Syracuse, Capua, One-turn variants etc) will have their own EDU

Thanks

[4th Regiment]

I made it and I tested for some time and works very very good.

Although, I would say moral needs to go even more down - had two battles against captain lead AI army (so no general's star bonus for moral as some people explain this) and most of the units fought until really severe loses again. Also, considering how cavalry is overpowered, I would say it's cost must go more up even from my tweaks (it is still way cheaper than in real life) But, I was afraid that increasing it more could damage something in AI army composition

So here it is is, if somebody what to use it and try it

Changes:

- moral -2 for all units
- all cavalry and mounted units double the cost and upkeep
- shield values for pikemen is 5 now so pikemen are somewhat vulnerable to missiles in phalanx formation
- all other units shield values down roughly 25%, so again missiles damage is now bit closer to reality
- health for all units, safe elephants is now 1 (no body can fight with spear in the guts)

Just change it for export_desc_unit file in main data folder

It works for Pontus..and for full list of other factions where data folder is the one I must ask @Alavaria for his help

Enjoy! export_descr_unit.txt

[MacBlain]

I'm always interested in a discussion about perpetually refining the game balance.

I encourage you to read this forum in depth. Modders have been struggling for years with the issues you mention, and the RS2 team made their decisions after a great deal of consideration and testing.

Have you looked at the official submods for faster battles? You might also be interested in Granto's work, if you have a look at the submods forum.

The problem of cavalry costs, for example, is a very serious one, with no easy answers.

[4th Regiment]

I'm always interested in a discussion about perpetually refining the game balance.

I encourage you to read this forum in depth. Modders have been struggling for years with the issues you mention, and the RS2 team made their decisions after a great deal of consideration and testing.

Have you looked at the official submods for faster battles? You might also be interested in Granto's work, if you have a look at the submods forum.

The problem of cavalry costs, for example, is a very serious one, with no easy answers.

Thanks for suggestion, but as you can see I am not so new to the forum

All respect to moders but I have long experience with moding groups and those are groups of (sometimes lot of) people with different ideas and to change something which is already in the mod, especially if you are outside of the team is close to impossible.

I simply find those issues way of the balance and what I have tested so far after changes, is working very good.

Moral was simply way too high (and even with -2 tweak I made, most of the units are still fighting until severe losses, even without general's command star bonus, which is still way unrealistic but still better that old moral values)

Same goes with all other features. With old shield values, there is no point of misile troops in the game. Also, cost of the cavalry even with my changes is still low, but again better that it was. I have not seen any problems in AI cavalry recruitment so far, so things are more than fine and I am more than satisfied with change.

Others are welcome to use it, or not...or to suggest something better changes because of this and that

Cheers

[Alavaria]

Also, considering how cavalry is overpowered, I would say it's cost must go more up even from my tweaks (it is still way cheaper than in real life) But, I was afraid that increasing it more could damage something in AI army composition

You're right about this. It does damage the AI army composition.

[4th Regiment]

For doubling of the coast and upkeep (not the upgrade) of mounted units, I have not seen any problems in AI army composition so far.