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Thread: Submod Kamakura Shogunate in the 1326 campaign

  1. #1

    Default Submod Kamakura Shogunate in the 1326 campaign

    This campaign is the most ideally suited to have both a balanced world mod (outside the New World of the Americas) and show the potentially historical disintergration of the Hojo (Japanese) Shogunate, due to Japanese loyalists to the weak Emperor attempting to allegedly restore him to power.

    It appears the campaign was designed to be this way, such that the Ashikaga directly challenge the faltering Hojo clan (due to extreme loss of authority) as well as begin the rise of true daimyo. It's particularly notable for the most chivalrous samurai in history i.e. Kusunoki Masashige. In history, once the Ashikaga gained control, and due to the weakness of the then current Emperor Go-Daigo...the Ashikaga merely wrested control for themselves. This both begins to solidify the power of other clan leadership, weakens the Emperor even more, and ultimately leads to the Onin Wars and the Sengoku Jidai period.

    What's curious is despite the best of intentions of the early Hojo leadership and house daimyo codes (proto-Bushido) of Hojo Shigetoki, they ultimately lost their way by not living into what's among the most noble aspects of Bushido. Absolute power corrupts absolutely after all.

    So, what needs to happen?

    I have currenly altered the campaign such that all kingdoms horde when their last settlement is taken. I have also put in garrison scripts for certain settlements in order to halt the far too early destruction of the majority of them. If these fail, then deceased kingdoms re-emerge after so many turns (if they're AI controlled) and so they can retake their original settlements or new ones.

    A few things are needed. In order for the Ashikaga to potentially wrest control from the Hojo shogonate, they need settlements. I'm thinking that a new faction called Japanese Daimyo would be created. They would control Kagoshima, Kochi, and Iwate. There is only one region left and I don't want to use that one (as it might be used for Goryeo instead). However there are three settlements of much less culturally significant importance for this period: Ngala, Azande, and Lusaka. They're small villages in the interior of the continent of Africa. I doubt that removing them, and then using those same RGB values for the new Japanese cities would harm the campaign. Sapporo (which is in Hokkaido) didn't get settled for the longest time due to the harshness of the climate, the distance from infrastructure, the military, and the indigneous Ainu dwelling there. I would reconfigure Sapporo to be a "slave" settlement that could be conquered but only after dealing with a very strong garrison plus numerous spawned Ainu.

    It should be very difficult for the Japanese to expand due to this main conflict, not to mention the Wakou pirates (since the Japanese lack decent naval technology), plus then redeploy essential forces to Sapporo as that would mean weakening the balance of power against the Ashikaga! Sapporo should be a painfully slow to grow settlement.

    Since any kingdom can be "shadowed" for rebellion, then you might have up to four clans in Japan at once: the Hojo, and the Hojo's "shadow", the Ashikaga, and the Ashikaga's shadow. As you can see, all of the settlements would be in a constate state of war with all of that happening. (That does mean using up two additional slots).

    The african borders for those settlements would be absorbed by those surrounding them since they're eliminated from their regions.

    Meanwhile this would make the Hojo Shogunate very busy indeed trying to fight the Ashikaga and associated loyalists. Budo and Bushido and Japanese culture happened because of this constant warfare. It's why they didn't expand in history, but they still could and invade Goryeo and Indonesia and ultimately China.

    It makes no sense to have the Japanese expand into Asia without these multiple counterbalances. Realize too that they're shielded from the effects of the Black Death as it didn't move in their direction, but moving too early into the regions controlled by China (Yuan Dynasty) would result in them being affected too.

    The plan is to have new buildings for retraining of the samurai (dojo) for the various martial arts like yabusame (archery from horseback) horsemanship (bajutsu), naginatajutsu, kenjutsu, iaido, kyujutsu, etc. Likewise Sun Tsu's Art of Art causes a flowering of the martial arts in China with similar buildings and to check the power of the Japanese. All of which uses up lots of their treasuries while they butt heads against one another.

    Meanwhile we would see the rise of guilds, variations in local governance, cultural buildings in other parts of Asia and Europe. So the changes wouldn't be solely to help the Far East.

    The EDU is full. It's not possible to add units without eliminating current ones.

    If you're a mapper who can quickly remove Ngala, Azande, and Lusaka (from Africa)...and then create Kagoshima, Kochi, and Iwate in Japan, are able to reconfigure Sapporo as a slave settlement, then we could have a full fledged world mod that duplicates (somewhat) what happened as the samurai faltered and then rose up even stronger.

    If we can get that working, then we could use that last settlement slot to recreate the three existing Goryeo (Korea) states (versus the current two), and then lock them into an allied state with the Yuan (China) such as to repel an earlier ahistorical Japanese invasion. Then Goryeo would become a new faction as well. But first I'd like to have some semblance of Japan being in a state of constant civil war beginning with the faltering of the Hojo.

    Finally it's enlightening to read from this article discussing Goryeo and their very early attempts to put cannon on naval vessels. Since the Yuan Dynasty and the Japanese was desperate to deal with the Wakou pirates, and if Goryeo is the final faction added, then we could see them as the main naval power in the region and for a long long time prior to European efforts. The Goyeo could be absorbed by the Yuan, one of the Japanese clans, or even "shadowed" themselves to see the rise of the Joseon Dynasty too! (The regions of Goryeo would be able to make some Yuan units possibly due to their alliance).

    "During the late Goryeo Dynasty, Goryeo was at the cutting edge of shipboard artillery. In 1356 early experiments were carried out with gunpowder weapons that shot wood or metal projectiles. In 1373 experiments with incendiary arrows and "fire tubes" possibly an early form of the Hwacha were developed and placed on Korean warships. The policy of placing cannons and other gunpowder weapons continued well into the Joseon Dynasty and by 1410, over 160 Joseon warships had cannons on board. Choe Mu-seon, a medieval Korean inventor, military commander and scientist who introduced widespread use of gunpowder to Korea for the first time and creating various gunpowder based weapons."

    Since the EDU is full, then the Goreo would get earlier access to existing ships with cannon, and their admirals would get special traits to heighten naval command ability. While their cavalry and infantry are not comparable to the Yuan or the Japanese, since they're allied with the Yuan, it takes a naval invasion to get to them. As such, they could repel just about anyone without a naval technological leap.

    Note: since all 31 slots for Kingdoms are currently in use, any change means losing another i.e. Indonesia, Lithuania, Serbia, etc. Several only control a single settlement and would be made into a strong aspect of the "slave" kingdom (give them named_character attributes plus their own traits and ancillaries). The alternative is very powerful and scripted slave armies to do this in a similar manner. Regardless, Japan was at least as populated as France and with a larger very organized professional army plus bountiful ashigeru levies. Example: 1281 A.D. the Battle of Kōan with 40-60,000 samurai vs. 142,000 Mongols plus Yuan and Goryeo soldiers). Hard to get even a tiny ratio of these from three settlements. This is at a time when France had too many soldiers that their lands couldn't support (an average of 10,000 mustered).
    Last edited by RubiconDecision; November 01, 2015 at 01:34 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Looking for assistance to quickly alter the Kamakura Shogunate in the 1326 campaign

    You can try doing it with GeoMod.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Looking for assistance to quickly alter the Kamakura Shogunate in the 1326 campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by k/t View Post
    You can try doing it with GeoMod.
    Geomod won't directly open up the 1326 campaign after the batch file runs. It gives errors. The alternative is to relocate the 1326 campaign files into Gigantus' Bare Geomod. Then make the seven map changes. Plus do the script changes. Plus the historical research.

    I'm looking for an experienced mapper to do maybe a day of editing. The 1326 campaign is fine but would be spectacular with these minor changes. I've already greatly enhanced longevity in the first 100 turns (thats only 25 years, but otherwise too many kingdoms die prematurely).

    Edit:
    I can easily script powerful slave kingdom samurai armies to roam the many peninsula and islands of Japan...even multiple ones besieging say Kyoto, BUT a better solution is a player/AI choice from three other Japanese cities to creatively attack any Hojo forts or cities. Scripted spawned armies would happen on turns with named character generals with powerful and challenging traits.

    As it stands now, the Hojo are "teutonic" instead of a family tree. However with a family tree turned on, directly and with other generals having their own historical offspring, then at least some historical challenges of the Muromachi period would take place. The Ashikaga shogunate could become the next Mongols, but absorbing Korean naval tech, Chinese gun technology, even acquiring advanced armor metallurgy with cuirasses, better Western and Middle eastern stallions, would make them a scourge and a crusade target.

    A samurai with western cuirass to cope with gunpowder technology....lest you think Japanese armor is merely laminar braided lacquered and flimsy.
    Last edited by RubiconDecision; September 05, 2015 at 06:35 PM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Looking for assistance to quickly alter the Kamakura Shogunate in the 1326 campaign

    Update:

    With Withwnar's TW Map Utility and with Gigantus' help, I have relocated Ngala, Azande, and Lusaka. They were absorbed by neighboring regions in Africa.

    I then created Kagoshima, Kochi, and Iwate. Japan currently has six settlements (Kyoto, Edo, Kagoshima, Kochi, and Iwate PLUS the ahistorical Sapporo). My plan is to make Sapporo an Ainu slave kingdom held settlement. The other plan is to make Kagoshima, Kochi, and Iwate to be Ashikaga held samurai daimyo, thus a direct existential threat to the Hojo Shogunate. I can configure it so that they have peaceable but severely strained co-existence, or script it such that they are vassals, or script it that they wage war on the Hojo.

    As 31 Kingdoms are already in play, then the most likely candidate to reconfigure is Indochina. Given they can only make two unique units, the benefits of seeing Japanese history play out outweigh that limited expression of Indonesia's warriors. It's that or reconfigure Lithuania or Serbia as neither probably has much of a chance to establish a growing kingdom, while Indonesia can expand due to its isolated spot on the map, plus the border clashes of the Yuan Dynasty, and the new civil wars in Japan.

    Thoughts? It certainly makes playing as either the Hojo or Ashikaga extremely difficult, like the English vs France historical wars. Since the 1326 campaign is configured as an AoR, and many people have mentioned turning that off, then I might make only the Hojo able to use an AoR, and the Ashikaga strictly xenophobic and only able to make samurai units (no gun tech from the Yuan if defeated/ no better armor from Europe).

    In 1326, the Hojo Shogunate were making diplomatic inquiries to the Yuan Dynasty regarding trade, cultural exchange, mutual assistance versus the Wakou pirates, etc. The then Yuan Emperor (under a Mongol domination that wasn't to last say past 1360 A.D.) was addressing the King of Japan versus the Emperor, and hence yet another province of China. Such things helped contribute to the rise of the Ashikaga and outraged and emboldened the newly forming daimyo [The not well known name for these military governor precursors was the shugo.]. The daimyo simply didn't have the military and political power yet in 1326, but did as a result of banding together to depose the Hojo. The Hojo committed seppuku in history shortly thereafter, but anything might happen after turn #1 in the submod.

    It certainly makes sense to look at the armor upgrades of at least the Samurai, No Dachi, Samurai Cavalry, and the Samurai Bodyguards. Upon contact with Europeans in the 1500s, cuirasses were purchased and traded. Then copied and modified and lacquered. They became incorporated, even "proofed" with gunpowder weapon tests to ensure that no ammunition would penetrate them (versus their own armor technology). There's enough armor classes configured versus history to included several upgrades to the current maxed out laminar armor class of 13. Certainly splint was utilized up to the cuirass point, but then stalled from then versus European armor.

    Upon capturing some of the more powerful Yuan settlements, you'd expect for an absorption of the Yuan Armor of their units, one of which exceeds 13 i.e. the Song Shield Gunners with 15 and later 18 armor class upgrades. 15 requires a heavy_armourer (which of course the samurai had for 13), and the later 18 is a function of the plate mail event and a plate_armourer to achieve the 18 value. So this is where the new upper limit would be for the samurai to match history or only if lucky enough to have exposure to the Europeans plus conquer strategic Yuan strongholds.

    Proofed test of a samurai's curraised armor (Namban-do gusoku) plus obvious battle test. Not uncommon circa 1500+ AD.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    The armor classes utilized in the 1326 campaign.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    EMT_ASIAN_ARMOUR_LEVEL_0}None
    {EMT_ASIAN_ARMOUR_LEVEL_1}Leather
    {EMT_ASIAN_ARMOUR_LEVEL_2}Gambeson
    {EMT_ASIAN_ARMOUR_LEVEL_3}Leather Lamellar
    {EMT_ASIAN_ARMOUR_LEVEL_4}Light Lamellar
    {EMT_ASIAN_ARMOUR_LEVEL_5}Partial Light Mail
    {EMT_ASIAN_ARMOUR_LEVEL_6}Light Mail
    {EMT_ASIAN_ARMOUR_LEVEL_7}Light Brigandine
    {EMT_ASIAN_ARMOUR_LEVEL_8}Lamellar
    {EMT_ASIAN_ARMOUR_LEVEL_9}Partial Heavy Mail
    {EMT_ASIAN_ARMOUR_LEVEL_10}Heavy Mail
    {EMT_ASIAN_ARMOUR_LEVEL_11}Brigandine
    {EMT_ASIAN_ARMOUR_LEVEL_12}Buff Coat
    {EMT_ASIAN_ARMOUR_LEVEL_13}Heavy Lamellar The current samurai maximum
    {EMT_ASIAN_ARMOUR_LEVEL_14}Splint
    {EMT_ASIAN_ARMOUR_LEVEL_15}Heavy Brigandine
    {EMT_ASIAN_ARMOUR_LEVEL_16}Partial Plate
    {EMT_ASIAN_ARMOUR_LEVEL_17}Breastplate These all were historical
    {EMT_ASIAN_ARMOUR_LEVEL_18}Kataphract The Song Shield Gunners armor upgrade
    {EMT_ASIAN_ARMOUR_LEVEL_19}Heavy Splint
    {EMT_ASIAN_ARMOUR_LEVEL_20}Full Plate
    {EMT_ASIAN_ARMOUR_LEVEL_21}Renaissance Half Plate
    {EMT_ASIAN_ARMOUR_LEVEL_22}Improved Metallurgy
    {EMT_ASIAN_ARMOUR_LEVEL_23}Gothic Plate
    {EMT_ASIAN_ARMOUR_LEVEL_24}Renaissance 3-Quarter Plate
    {EMT_ASIAN_ARMOUR_LEVEL_25}Advanced Metallurgy
    {EMT_ASIAN_ARMOUR_LEVEL_26}Increased Armor Thickness
    {EMT_ASIAN_PRIEST} Imam


    Since I am no modeller, unless one steps forward, the samurai have the potential to upgrade up to 18 upon certain conditions, but the unit depictions will not change. It's a small thing, but if somebody feels like volunteering these four armor class upgrades, then you'd see that reflected in the submod campaign.

    Update:
    If the Empires campaign is equally popular, I can edit it to be more historical versus the godlike Spanish configuration. Certainly see Japan and Joseon to be as accurate as possible within the hard coded limitations of maximum unit and region numbers. When I reconfigured it before, Spanish territory in North America was inundated by indigenous Native Americans.
    Last edited by RubiconDecision; September 07, 2015 at 10:48 PM.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Looking for assistance to quickly alter the Kamakura Shogunate in the 1326 campaign

    A unit can only have three upgrades, so you'd have to have some duplicate units with different armour upgrade levels. It doesn't sound like you have any spare slots, though. You could try changing the existing upgrade levels - leave only one or none and put in the new ones.

    Ultimately, you might be trying too hard to put detail into a mod that's necessarily less detailed due to its scope. You're better off picking up the pieces of Shizoku no Sensho (something like that). I think Swagger was making it. Many people would love a Japan mod.

    Also, have a look at the newest RC. It adds some more armour levels in order to allow high quality units to upgrade before low and mid quality ones.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    M2TW ARMOR UPGRADE LEVELS EXPLAINED
    -----------------------------------
    Note that in the MASTER ARMOR TABLE above the Upgrade Level ranges from 0-27, but that for example in export_descr_units the French Feudal Knight's armour_ug_levels is armour_ug_levels 11, 17, 22, 37. In the table above, that is Heavy Mail->Breastpate->Improved Metallurgy->?
    In fact there are 43 levels (defined in expanded.text), because the upper-class fighting men have a 10-25 year 'window' to use this new technology before it becomes more commonplace. The following table is therefore in approximately chronological order. In this case
    The French Feudal Knights armour_ug_levels 11, 17, 22, 37 is Heavy Mail->Coat of Plates->Partial Plate->Improved Metallurgy. Note that the Coat of plates (#17) predates the coat of plates used by the more common fighting man (#19) by about 15 years, and the partial plate the same.
    0}None
    1}Leather
    2}Padded
    3}Leather Lamellar
    4}Light Brigandine
    5}Light Lamellar
    6}Partial Light Mail
    7}Light Mail
    8}Buff Coat
    9}Lamellar
    10}Partial Heavy Mail
    11}Heavy Mail
    12}Lamellar
    13}Partial Heavy Mail
    14}Heavy Mail
    15}Brigandine
    16}Brigandine
    17}Coat of Plates
    18}Heavy Lamellar
    19}Coat of Plates
    20}Heavy Lamellar
    21}Heavy Brigandine
    22}Partial Plate
    23}Heavy Brigandine
    24}Partial Plate
    25}Breastplate
    26}Breastplate
    27}Heavy Splint
    28}Late Lamellar
    29}Late Brigandine
    30}Full Plate
    31}Heavy Splint
    32}Late Lamellar
    33}Late Brigandine
    34}Full Plate
    35}Renaissance Half Plate
    36}Renaissance Half Plate
    37}Improved Metallurgy
    38}Gothic Plate
    39}Gothic Plate
    40}Advanced Metallurgy
    41}Renaissance 3-Quarter Plate
    42}Renaissance 3-Quarter Plate
    43}Increased Armor Thickness

  6. #6

    Default Re: Looking for assistance to quickly alter the Kamakura Shogunate in the 1326 campaign

    I would except the Imjim(sic) War mod is nearly a complete beta plus 80% translated into English including Asian settlements.

    The only mod to deal with the entire world with multiple campaigns is ERAS.

    Should the boundaries be broken with more units and regions, then ERAS is poised to be the mod for that adaptation.

    You are correct that no current MTW2 Japanese mod exists, sadly true, but there is a RTW1 one.

    The radical map discussion is here.

    Do you see the implications of a near boundless map for game mechanics? ERAS becomes CIV3 OR CIV4.
    Last edited by RubiconDecision; September 18, 2015 at 09:17 PM.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Looking for assistance to quickly alter the Kamakura Shogunate in the 1326 campaign

    But until the boundaries are broken, there is only so much you can do with this mod.

    I will look up that mod.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Looking for assistance to quickly alter the Kamakura Shogunate in the 1326 campaign

    There is progress on the submod. A tiny change, possibly an error(or by design) was removed from the tech tree, and this allowed higher levels of law buildings, and in turn lays the foundation for both true Budo(the Art of War) and Bushido(the Way of Chivalry) systems to unfold.

    I've added several armor upgrades to the Chinese and Japanese. Recruitable generals can be trained and leveled up in order to become military governors and ultimately royal governors.

    I've altered the trait system to be something closer to normal, such that generals don't rapidly become corrupted. They can experience a Maturity check based upon their age (planned) and also spiritual and chivalrous intensity repels many bad traits(working). Maturity checks might trigger the Ambition trait and cause civil revolts (they think about joining the shadow faction too). High differences between the leader's chivalrous/dread coupled with low loyalty will create civil revolts. The plan then is an inevitable shadow faction like the Barons' Alliance from the Britannia Campaign. The player could lose carefully leveled up generals and governors, and hence have to fight those armies and regain settlements. There will be true rebellions. A player can no longer steamroll the AI, for leaving the flanks unprotected, might result in losing the money making trade centers as well as the best producing soldier centers.

    For example, samurai armies pushing forward into China, Tibet, Mongolia, Indonesia, etc might LOSE control of key Japanese cities due to ambitious disloyal rebels carving out a contender kingdom(Ashikaga versus the Hojo). Your nemesis is generally worse than any other enemy for it's fighting a reflection of yourself.

    The top five kingdoms are usually Japan, China, Germany, Egypt, and Moors. All of them might have shadow factions.

    I hate to see so many kingdoms get eliminated in the first 100 turns, so I'm thinking about adding those to the AoR recruitable units. Example: Should England control Scotland and France, then England could recruit most of either FULL ROSTERS upon fulfilling the tech tree and event requirements. This adds to the flavor of the game, fills niche roles, and might do more. If there's a bribed general, say a Scottish general, then he might eventually rebel and attempt to reestablish control as a shadow faction.

    Sometimes bad traits like the Drink trait might be eliminated by a Maturity check, a religious conversion, being very chivalrous, but STILL the general would at best be a former alcoholic, and might due to extreme wealth, age, isolation from court, then begin drinking again...and perhaps even worse.

    I'm thinking of scripting yes/no questions that allow gifts(money) to other kingdoms to improve diplomatic relations, moral quandaries that result in positive and negative traits, and perhaps an expensive scientific innovation system that yields earlier advancement.

    The problem with the teutonic system versus the normal family tree is that in history sometimes dynasties died out abruptly. As such, it might hurt the chances for longevity, but be more historically accurate. Reemerging kingdoms at 50 turn intervals means a chance to see them continue.

    Edit:
    Note that in spite of armor upgrades for historical accuracy, the best German infantry and cavalry of the medieval period can STILL beat fully maxed out samurai. If...if the Germans actually arrived in force, without scurvy, without bad morale, without a complete loser as a general, then in even numbers, the Germans win every time. There's no cure for gothic armor plate except twice as many numbers.

    The Japanese have no couched lances and lesser horses. They can absorb Chinese and Korean and Mongol technology to produce better cavalry however. They can absorb firearms from the Chinese which certainly helps versus German armor.

    The Chinese can launch naval invasions on Japan, besiege them, and absorb them as well.
    Last edited by RubiconDecision; November 01, 2015 at 01:11 PM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Submod Kamakura Shogunate in the 1326 campaign

    Due to Antitraits and NoGoingBack levels being broken in the EDCT, that's one more series of fixes I have to make to repair the submod. I'd thought that was nearly finished but now I have to study a working mod to properly reset it or combine traits along a continuum i.e. have Teetotalers at one extreme and Paralyzed drunks at the other extreme, and ratchet the value in the same trait. That versus two or more traits. This is crucial for Far_Loyalty, Near_Loyalty, Loyal, and Disloyal. Otherwise shadow factions and civil revolts won't work.
    Last edited by RubiconDecision; November 05, 2015 at 08:50 PM.

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