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Thread: The Japanese almost took control of Hawaii....in 1897!

  1. #21

    Default Re: The Japanese almost took control of Hawaii....in 1897!

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthShizNit View Post
    He isn't saying that at all what are you talking about?
    "The US unintentionally conquered Hawaii without lifting a finger."'
    BS


    "In January 1893, the planters staged an uprising to overthrow the Queen. At the same time, they appealed to the United States armed forces for protection. Without Presidential approval, marines stormed the islands, and the American minister to the islands raised the stars and stripes in Honolulu. The Queen was forced to abdicate, and the matter was left for Washington politicians to settle. By this time, Grover Cleveland had been inaugurated President. Cleveland was an outspoken anti-imperialist and thought Americans had acted shamefully in Hawaii. He withdrew the annexation treaty from the Senate and ordered an investigation into potential wrongdoings. Cleveland aimed to restore Liliuokalani to her throne, but American public sentiment strongly favored annexation."
    http://www.ushistory.org/us/44b.asp
    Sounds very intentional.
    Last edited by RubiconDecision; September 08, 2015 at 01:11 AM.

  2. #22
    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: The Japanese almost took control of Hawaii....in 1897!

    So we have a rogue marine unit that attacked a sovereign state under orders from fruit companies. Then the president said "this is wrong" but congress forced an annexation on him.

    That sounds unintentional.
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  3. #23

    Default Re: The Japanese almost took control of Hawaii....in 1897!

    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Tartleton View Post
    So we have a rogue marine unit that attacked a sovereign state under orders from fruit companies. Then the president said "this is wrong" but congress forced an annexation on him.

    That sounds unintentional.
    Your pathetic post ignores that it was premeditated, done by the US military, and a weakling president caved to public sentiment versus remediating and punishing all involved in the sordid history of annexation. What's more a US POLICY under the next president exacerbated one more time indigenous betrayal in American History too.

    One wonders if Philippine annexation was likewise unintentional. Or Puerto Rico?
    Last edited by RubiconDecision; September 08, 2015 at 03:15 AM.

  4. #24
    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: The Japanese almost took control of Hawaii....in 1897!

    No, that was a war with Spain.
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  5. #25
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    Default Re: The Japanese almost took control of Hawaii....in 1897!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Japan didn't annex Hawaii because they were afraid of the US. There was a vocal US interest group in the islands (essentially Texas 2.0), and the US had a history of walking over Japanese interests so had Japan attempted to take control of Hawaii there would have been another US intervention.
    I wouldn't be so sure about that. There was a huge difference between Japanese military strength when the first intervention by commodore Perry occurred, compared to the size of their military at the time of the Hawaiian coup. As Oda pointed out earlier, Japan was the premier naval power in the pacific at the time. It is far from inconceivable to believe that Japan could have come out on top if such a clash had occurred.

    I think the winner would have been determined by when exactly such a conflict was to break out. If Japan seized the islands, crushed the coup and reinstated the Hawaiian monarchy in 1883, leading to open war between themselves and the USA, then it likely would not have gone in their favor. At that time Japan had not yet established military supremacy over China and as a result was very much concerned with their immediate neighbor.

    On the other hand, if war had broken out in 1887 when the US officially annexed Hawaii, Japan would have been in a much stronger position. Their naval power had been greatly expanded after the stunning victory over China in 1885, not to mention all the important naval experience and lessons gained from that. The US military, like all western military's right up to ww2, were completely contemptuous of 'oriental' soldiers and I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if the US navy completely underestimated the Japanese the same way the Russians did.

    Teddy Roosevelt was adamant that Japan had a stronger navy than the US pacific fleet and used this as a major argument for Hawaiian annexation as well as support for the panama canal project. The Japanese navy would almost certainly have crushed the Asiatic squadron and at the very least would have been an equal match for a US naval force sent from the west coast to capture Hawaii. Who knows, the Americans may even has sent their Atlantic fleet around south America and meet the same fate that the Russians did!

    Also on the topic of the Russians, the Russians were still building up their pacific fleet 1887, with its massive port arthur naval base 'leased' from China still very much under construction and war would not break out between them for a further 8 years. As a result it would be safe to say the Japanese could have engaged in a conflict with the US over Hawaii without too much fear of a surprise Russian attack. Also the fact that the Russian far eastern Navy was riddled with Japanese spies would have made a surprise attack highly unlikely
    Last edited by IrishBlood; September 08, 2015 at 01:05 PM.

  6. #26

    Default Re: The Japanese almost took control of Hawaii....in 1897!

    It was a gross time of American imperialism egged on by journalists and the American public. The events happened within a similar time period.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: The Japanese almost took control of Hawaii....in 1897!

    Who egged on Japan's gross imperialism?

  8. #28
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    Default Re: The Japanese almost took control of Hawaii....in 1897!

    Quote Originally Posted by RubiconDecision View Post
    It was a gross time of American imperialism egged on by journalists and the American public. The events happened within a similar time period.
    Which is precisely why I believe they would have easily gone to war with Japan over Hawaii had the Japanese been more militant/aggressive over the issue. The Japanese had a few pretty decent reasons for wanting to start a war too...


    1. They were on good terms with the Hawaiian Monarchy.
      They shared a lot in common (monarchical island nation in the pacific under threat from western powers) and were almost certainly cultivating an alliance that my eventually have gained them military bases on Hawaii.
    2. 40% of the islands population were Japanese.
      That's ten's of thousands of Japanese people who massively outnumbered the white americans on the islands, but got absolutely no say in the fate of the islands what so ever. Virtually all the land was bought up by American companies and the Japanese worked on plantations and were often treated very harshly. They were treated as second class citizens and had nothing to gain from the American takeover. An increasingly nationalistic Japanese government and military could easily have seen this mistreatment as a suitable casus belli (lord know's Europeans did it often enough!).
    3. Hawaii is strategically important.
      Preventing America from gaining Hawaii would greatly impede Americas ability to maintain a significant presence in the Pacific. True, as I pointed out earlier the Asiatic squadron were a nomadic force that captured the Philippines without being based in Hawaii, but I really don't think the US could have maintained the three year long war against the native Filipinos and decades long occupation had it not been for Hawaii.
    4. They were Americas military equal (at least in the Pacific).
      Assuming a war was to break out in 1887, as I stated in my previous post, Japan would have stood a decent chance at winning a war with the USA and likely wouldnt have been impeded by either Britain, France or Russia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stavroforos View Post
    Who egged on Japan's gross imperialism?

    The Japanese press and public! Violent nationalism was all the rage back then!

  9. #29
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    Default Re: The Japanese almost took control of Hawaii....in 1897!

    Quote Originally Posted by Stavroforos View Post
    Who egged on Japan's gross imperialism?
    Murica possibly Britain

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

  10. #30
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    Default Re: The Japanese almost took control of Hawaii....in 1897!

    Quote Originally Posted by IrishBlood View Post
    I wouldn't be so sure about that. There was a huge difference between Japanese military strength when the first intervention by commodore Perry occurred, compared to the size of their military at the time of the Hawaiian coup. As Oda pointed out earlier, Japan was the premier naval power in the pacific at the time. It is far from inconceivable to believe that Japan could have come out on top if such a clash had occurred.

    I think the winner would have been determined by when exactly such a conflict was to break out. If Japan seized the islands, crushed the coup and reinstated the Hawaiian monarchy in 1883, leading to open war between themselves and the USA, then it likely would not have gone in their favor. At that time Japan had not yet established military supremacy over China and as a result was very much concerned with their immediate neighbor.

    On the other hand, if war had broken out in 1887 when the US officially annexed Hawaii, Japan would have been in a much stronger position. Their naval power had been greatly expanded after the stunning victory over China in 1885, not to mention all the important naval experience and lessons gained from that. The US military, like all western military's right up to ww2, were completely contemptuous of 'oriental' soldiers and I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if the US navy completely underestimated the Japanese the same way the Russians did.

    Teddy Roosevelt was adamant that Japan had a stronger navy than the US pacific fleet and used this as a major argument for Hawaiian annexation as well as support for the panama canal project. The Japanese navy would almost certainly have crushed the Asiatic squadron and at the very least would have been an equal match for a US naval force sent from the west coast to capture Hawaii. Who knows, the Americans may even has sent their Atlantic fleet around south America and meet the same fate that the Russians did!

    Also on the topic of the Russians, the Russians were still building up their pacific fleet 1887, with its massive port arthur naval base 'leased' from China still very much under construction and war would not break out between them for a further 8 years. As a result it would be safe to say the Japanese could have engaged in a conflict with the US over Hawaii without too much fear of a surprise Russian attack. Also the fact that the Russian far eastern Navy was riddled with Japanese spies would have made a surprise attack highly unlikely
    In the 1880's much of the Japanese Navy was still being designed and constructed and many of their military and naval officers were being trained abroad. On the other hand the Americans didn't have that much in the way of a Pacific Fleet.

    Now in 1897 or 1898 I'm not convinced that Dewey's Asiatic Squadron could have taken on the German Pacific Fleet let alone the Imperial Japanese Navy. Even Dewey was aware that sinking some old Spanish ships off of Manila was nothing compared to what the third fleet that Spain had in reserve or the German Pacific Fleet could have done to him, he spent most of his time in Manila worrying and hoping that the government could prevent some sort of coalition against the United States most likely made up of Britain and Germany at that time.

    Were one to compare Japanese tactics and strategy with those of the Americans (in 1894, 1898 and 1904) I would say that while in terms of strategy both of them seem more or less even as Sampson and Dewey seemed relatively competent so too were Ito Sukeyuki and Togo Heihachiro. When it comes to tactics the Americans performed very well if at least in ship to ship actions but I think that looking at the battles won by the Japanese in 1904/05 the Japanese clearly had a tactical advantage (crossing the T at Tsushima ). A comparison of the enemies shows that the Spanish had an extremely weak fleet at the time. There's really no comparison between the Russian fleet and the Spanish fleet, a more apt comparison would be the Beiyang fleet with the Spanish fleet and even then the Beiyang fleet was considered superior to the Imperial Japanese Navy by western experts (in terms of design they might have been right but everything else they were probably wrong).
    Last edited by Lord Oda Nobunaga; September 08, 2015 at 04:07 PM.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

  11. #31

    Default Re: The Japanese almost took control of Hawaii....in 1897!

    US, British,Spanish, Dutch, French imperialism coupled with a carve up China by the the same plus Germany was all happening in the Pacific. That led to Imperial Japanese machinations to take over ALL the colonies under into a Pan-Asian sham empire later called the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere.

    Japan in 1874 began snatching (like the rest of the countries mentioned) Taiwan.

    Japanese in Hawaii were still considered Japanese citizens. Even IF it was a US territory, Japanese were not allowed citizenship at the time. That created a political window for the Japanese to take over (like the US invasion of Grenada in 1983 to protect US citizens).

    There were problems with the Open Door Policy and Gentleman's Agreement leading to strained cooperation circa WW1. See this topic where I discuss that strain.
    Last edited by RubiconDecision; September 08, 2015 at 04:02 PM.

  12. #32
    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default Re: The Japanese almost took control of Hawaii....in 1897!

    There was also the issue that European powers were willing to carve up China but give nothing to Japan in the way of spheres. As I mentioned before the Japanese were hesitant to join in an alliance with the French because the French wanted to expand their power into Korea and Taiwan, which the Japanese viewed as being their sphere of influence.
    Likewise when the Japanese defeated China, conquered Liaodong, colonized Taiwan and vassalized Korea the French, Germans and Russians forced Japan to give Liaodong to the Qing. In 1897 Russia "leased" Liaodong from the Qing and started building railways and infiltrating Manchuria then in 1900 Russia straight up occupied Manchuria and started building up and making similar investments in the Japanese puppet state of Korea. All of this was the impetus for the Russo-Japanese War and similar Russian projects included the occupation of Xinjiang, Gansu, Mongolia and possibly even Inner Mongolia which due to their defeat and revolution in 1905 they were unable to accomplish. There was some salt poured in the wound when the Japanese removed the Germans from their Chinese enclaves during WW1 but were not at all rewarded with those enclaves which instead were given to China.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

  13. #33

    Default Re: The Japanese almost took control of Hawaii....in 1897!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Oda Nobunaga View Post
    There was also the issue that European powers were willing to carve up China but give nothing to Japan in the way of spheres. As I mentioned before the Japanese were hesitant to join in an alliance with the French because the French wanted to expand their power into Korea and Taiwan, which the Japanese viewed as being their sphere of influence.
    Likewise when the Japanese defeated China, conquered Liaodong, colonized Taiwan and vassalized Korea the French, Germans and Russians forced Japan to give Liaodong to the Qing. In 1897 Russia "leased" Liaodong from the Qing and started building railways and infiltrating Manchuria then in 1900 Russia straight up occupied Manchuria and started building up and making similar investments in the Japanese puppet state of Korea. All of this was the impetus for the Russo-Japanese War and similar Russian projects included the occupation of Xinjiang, Gansu, Mongolia and possibly even Inner Mongolia which due to their defeat and revolution in 1905 they were unable to accomplish. There was some salt poured in the wound when the Japanese removed the Germans from their Chinese enclaves during WW1 but were not at all rewarded with those enclaves which instead were given to China.

    Political cartoon circa 1900. This encouraged imperialism by all in the Pacific (starting with China). It's also why I brought up the aftermath of Spain/the USA and the Philippines. Hawaii was strategic(to both the Japanese and the USA) just as Singapore was to the British. Cutting off Hawaii was just as vital to shipping and naval warfare.
    Last edited by RubiconDecision; September 08, 2015 at 05:03 PM.

  14. #34
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    Default Re: The Japanese almost took control of Hawaii....in 1897!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Oda Nobunaga View Post
    Murica possibly Britain
    I think the US had a very negative stance toward Japan's imperial ambitions in the Pacific. Japan was aggressively "opened" (read militarily overawed) by Perry and the respect level didn't really increase much AFAIK. In the 1920's the US made further efforts to limit Japanese naval strength under the guise of "peaceful" arms agreements, and the US broke up the decades old British-Japanese alliance in 1923 (had to google that last date).

    Great Britain was more realistic and prepared to ally with imperial Japan and countenance some expansion on their part, but elements of the British Empire were thoroughly racist and opposed to "the yellow man" (be it China or Japan) especially in Australia. They also bowed to the US when it came to the crunch in 1923, as the US held all the chips after WWI. I think japan was the only major power not massively in debt to the US at that time.
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  15. #35
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    Default Re: The Japanese almost took control of Hawaii....in 1897!

    I just said USA because Matthew Perry sailed into Tokyo and threatened to blow them up if they didn't open their markets to foreign trade. Britain because they took part in a few operations like the one against the Satsuma domain which was very much gunboat diplomacy. Like wise the Americans did against Choshu and finally a combined British, French, Dutch and American squadron attacked the Choshu domain again. I was also referring to the British alliance with Japan.

    Though the change in mentality regarding the western powers started during the Napoleon wars when the HMS Phaeton sailed into Nagasaki and demanded Dutch hostages or else they would bombard the port and the authorities were powerless to react. Then starting around 1810 Russian naval raids began to ravage all of the territory across Sakhalin and Hokkaido. The Japanese looked to Dutch technology and weapons and began to investigate their use up to the 1840's especially because of the Opium wars. Really the opportunity presented itself when Matthew Perry opened up Japan through threat of annihilation in 1853 that way Japan started commerce with the leading European powers, were introduced to their methods and the rest is history. But neither the Russian attacks nor the British threat to Nagasaki were as bad as an entire fleet of American steam ships sailing into Tokyo.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

  16. #36
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    Default Re: The Japanese almost took control of Hawaii....in 1897!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Oda Nobunaga View Post
    I just said USA because Matthew Perry sailed into Tokyo and threatened to blow them up if they didn't open their markets to foreign trade. Britain because they took part in a few operations like the one against the Satsuma domain which was very much gunboat diplomacy. Like wise the Americans did against Choshu and finally a combined British, French, Dutch and American squadron attacked the Choshu domain again. I was also referring to the British alliance with Japan.

    Though the change in mentality regarding the western powers started during the Napoleon wars when the HMS Phaeton sailed into Nagasaki and demanded Dutch hostages or else they would bombard the port and the authorities were powerless to react. Then starting around 1810 Russian naval raids began to ravage all of the territory across Sakhalin and Hokkaido. The Japanese looked to Dutch technology and weapons and began to investigate their use up to the 1840's especially because of the Opium wars. Really the opportunity presented itself when Matthew Perry opened up Japan through threat of annihilation in 1853 that way Japan started commerce with the leading European powers, were introduced to their methods and the rest is history. But neither the Russian attacks nor the British threat to Nagasaki were as bad as an entire fleet of American steam ships sailing into Tokyo.
    I think part of the reason Perry snuck in in 1853 was the European powers had their eyes on the Crimea. They were not a first rate power at that time, just wannabes looking for a cheap kill, and Japan was a very cheap kill.

    In the 1890's despite huge improvements in Japan, the US was definitely still streets ahead. A quick Google suggests the Japanese were buying in about four cruisers in 1890 whereas the US had built more than five already and were building five battleships. The US have infinitely greater materiel and technical resources, Japan would have been insane to take on the US in 1893 (as there were insane to take on the US in 1941).
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  17. #37

    Default Re: The Japanese almost took control of Hawaii....in 1897!

    Yes. The Japanese are totally limited with only 20 % usable farmland, few resources, and easily blockaded. Crippled by all three. Really impossible to create and support a navy from Singapore to Hawaii too. You can see why the 1st Sino-Japanese War, the Russo-Japanese War, and Manchuria happened.

    Hawaii has a very long growing season plus fishing but a terrible fresh water problem outside of rainforest in Kauai.
    Last edited by RubiconDecision; September 09, 2015 at 05:45 PM.

  18. #38
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    Default Re: The Japanese almost took control of Hawaii....in 1897!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    I think part of the reason Perry snuck in in 1853 was the European powers had their eyes on the Crimea. They were not a first rate power at that time, just wannabes looking for a cheap kill, and Japan was a very cheap kill.

    In the 1890's despite huge improvements in Japan, the US was definitely still streets ahead. A quick Google suggests the Japanese were buying in about four cruisers in 1890 whereas the US had built more than five already and were building five battleships. The US have infinitely greater materiel and technical resources, Japan would have been insane to take on the US in 1893 (as there were insane to take on the US in 1941).
    Quote Originally Posted by RubiconDecision View Post
    Yes. The Japanese are totally limited with only 20 % usable farmland, few resources, and easily blockaded. Crippled by all three. Really impossible to create and support a navy from Singapore to Hawaii too. You can see why the 1st Sino-Japanese War, the Russo-Japanese War, and Manchuria happened.

    Hawaii has a very long growing season plus fishing but a terrible fresh water problem outside of rainforest in Kauai.
    Yes some good points. I think America would likely win long term in a war against Japan. Though Japan definitely has the tactical advantage as their organization, officers and naval tactics were better in my opinion. Neither the Qing Beiyang Fleet, nor the Russian Baltic Fleet nor the Russian Pacific Fleet were slouches, they were all modern navies and Japan defeated them resoundingly. America on the other hand was using their modern fleet to destroy the rather outdated Spanish Navy and their Manila squadron was especially outdated. George Dewey did little in the war compared to William Thomas Sampson in my opinion. Admiral Sampson proved that he had a winning strategy in the Caribbean and American ships and crews proved that they were easily superior to Spanish ships and crews. But even George Dewey was not secure that his Asiatic Squadron could take on the third Spanish fleet stationed in Spain or the German Pacific Squadron.

    Were such a war to break out it would likely be the result of a Japanese take over of Hawaii or alternatively the Japanese reacting to America's seizure of Hawaii. In either case I don't think capturing Hawaii would be much of an advantage for the Japanese as they would still have to deal with the US Pacific Coast which they could not really invade. I don't think the Americans would really push to Japan successfully, I think at most they could threaten Tokyo with bombardment or threaten invasion of Taiwan.

    1897 was prior to American control of Manila so George Dewey's Asiatic Squadron would have been based in Hong Kong and the Squadron itself would be severely under strength. Japan on the other hand had successfully operated in Korea, the Gulf of Bohai and Taiwan but in the future would also operate on both sides of the Korean peninsula against the Russians (Port Arthur and Vladivostok). Though the Japanese could have used Taiwan to resupply, George Dewey's Asiatic Squadron and any other offensive would suffer from a severe lack bases in the other. A strategic defense by America would be very successful assuming that they bring their Atlantic Squadrons and use their industrial power to keep putting ships into the water. An offensive by America might be more of a stalemate but the point is that Japan could not hold onto Hawaii. The vast distances involved don't make it practical to have a mini replica of the Pacific War in 1897 (because coal and poor communications!).

    Now I would put forward the possibility that Russia might actually join America's side if only to get an advantage in Asia against the Japanese. However this is only 1897 and the Russians do not have a strong military presence in Manchuria (though they do have Lushunku/Port Arthur). There is also the issue that since Britain was not Japan's ally until 1902 and that France is allied to Russia since 1894 but also that Germany had not yet decided to drop Russia as a possible ally then Japan is pretty much on its own should Russia and the USA gang up on them. Though if Britain did for some reason join Japan's side there wouldn't really be an impetus for France to support Russia against Britain due to any provocations like the Fashoda incident (though technically Russia would be fighting two powers so I don't know if France would be forced to support them in that case).

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

  19. #39

    Default Re: The Japanese almost took control of Hawaii....in 1897!

    Hawaii isn't rich in resources and even today has a population similar to Ryukyu island chain. It's way too far away. It would have been a Western Singapore for shipping but impossible to take...and hold.That's too little gain for too much work.

  20. #40

    Default Re: The Japanese almost took control of Hawaii....in 1897!

    This is pretty old so I don't know if anyone will see it but actually a large portion of the Japanese living there were actually not Japanese but Okinawan who live on a small chain of islands just south of mainland Japan. These people do not distinguish themselves as Japanese but were annexed by Japan in the 1870s and despite having different a culture and language the Japanese government essentially disregarded all of that and considered "Okinawans" to be just a sort of lesser Japanese people. Pretty much the same thing that would happen to any smaller nation being annexed by an imperial power happened to Okinawa. Rape,Destruction of Culture and language and racial discrimination. After this invasion and annexation the Okinawans as you can assume didn't like it when some bigger nation treats you bad and tells you how to live. Because of that a lot of Okinawans moved to another parts of the world,Hawaii was one of the biggest spots they migrated to to work on the growing sugar cane industry. And since they were annexed prior to moving immigration will regard them as "Japanese" not Okinawan. Seeing the country that you just ran away from coming to try and take your home AGAIN the Okinawan people would not be very supportive of a Japanese take over of the islands.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryukyu...EREFCaprio2014

    http://immigrationtounitedstates.org/541-hawaii.html
    Last edited by botolava; July 31, 2019 at 07:26 AM. Reason: Reference links

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