Where in the World is Mordor?

[The Despondent Mind]

It would be limiting a fan's ability to connect Middle Earth to our current earth, however feasible. Maybe we have a misunderstanding here? Let me rephrase: How is having your own universe and giving it a vague connection to earth a bad thing?

It is unnecessary, as it doesn't make it anywhere better or more interesting, it's like you have a perfect cake and you put ketchup on top of it because people that eat the cake also like fries.

[Påsan]

Well I disagree with most of the interpetations here. If you cross reference Middle earth with history, there is a few patterns to be seen. Middle Earth as far as I can deduct is placed roughtly in the technological spectrum of the dark ages 500 ad to 900 ad. Save for the Hobbits who are more like 1700's rural england.


Firstly, Gondor is analogous to Byzantium, not Italy. Byzantium was the remains of a great empire where only the eastern part still held storng, just like Gondor. Which makes Osgiliath Constantinople, built on the devide on east and west on the bosperos straight/anudin. Which makes Italy Rohan actually. Which at this time was inhabited by the Lagobards, a Germanic people from the North. In tolkiens works the Rohirrim was Anglo-Saxon, but the Legobards were close cusins of the Anglo-Saxons.

As for Arnor, yeah England is a good fit as well as most of France. Previously occupied by the Numenorians but abandoned. Just like England and France was occupied by the Romans and by this time it was abandoned and the Roman Empire only existed in Byzantium (Gondor). I guess hobbitun would be places somewhere in northern England.

The fantasy races is nowhere specific considering they have no hisorical counterparts. They are mostly drawn from Norse mythology. I suppose you can make the alps the misty mountians. Dale and the Northmen could possibly be Germany/Scandinavia. At this time Germany and Sweden was heavily forested.

As for the Evil factions, The Corsairs of Umbar and Haradrim are pretty obvious counterparts to arabs in the middle east and the African north coast (Corsairs of Umbar were former Numenorian colonies, similar to the Corsairs of North Africa were previously Roman terretory in North Africa, see it works!) while the Rhun would be turks I guess. As for the Variags, that is a name used for the Rus Varangians. I also think they are described as grim axemen in the Return of the King. So the Kievan Rus is the best bet. The Vainriders should then be peshengs or some other nomadic steppe tribe.



As for mordor? The Black Sea, Right next to Gondor

[Black_ice_Spain]

As far as I recall, Tolkien repeteadly denied those claims even when people always related the books to WWII (it said so in my LOTR extended edition books)

[Finlander]

I have also made my own map of Middle-Earth based on Europe:



It was quite quickly done and didn't go into detail much. Wasn't sure how to include Harad or Rhun.

[Flinn]

lol, I live in Dol-Amroth then

edit: or in the brown lands .. nono, Dol-Amroth is much better

besides, obviuosly Tolkien took inspiration from real world, but with all the due respect I think that trying to "apply" a map of the ME to the Europe is pretty useless, unless of course one wants to do some sound speculation, which is pretty fine in any case

For a italian like me, the references between Romans and Numenoreans are pretty plain, like many others in the book (mongols/easterling for instance); out of my imagination I can say that Tolkien not only took inspiration from such events, but that he also included them as a sort of reference, to build up some easy similarities between real world and ME, as he implied that Ea is nothing but the Earth at its beginning.

[Joseignacio]

Have not seen the video yet (i am a little busy these days but before seeing it (yet), my feeling would be like what Dude says.

Umbar should be an Arab area, so it doesn't fit in a mixed celtic/iberian area such as Galicia (North West Spain). Due to the mix of races of the Numenoreans with "lesser men" in Pelargir area (more or less) it could represent the racial mixture europeans/arabs/jewish in Spain. Gondor needs to be IMO France/Italy.

[The Angry Greek]

Gondor has always to me felt like a combination of Greece, Byzantium, Constantinople/Istanbul and the Balkans as the many fiefdoms.

[ElvenKind]

I have also made my own map of Middle-Earth based on Europe:



It was quite quickly done and didn't go into detail much. Wasn't sure how to include Harad or Rhun.

HAHA! I live in Mirkwood..

[Roma_Victrix]

LOL. Greece is Harad and Mordor. I knew it all along!

[♔atthias♔]

HAHA! I live in Mirkwood..

ah hence the wolfshead evil servant of sauron I will kill you
and you dare to bear the name of the childeren from my people

[ElvenKind]

LOL. Greece is Harad and Mordor. I knew it all along!

R_V, you are looking at the map from a wrong angle..

Umbar and Mordor are actually Spain.

ah hence the wolfshead evil servant of sauron I will kill you
and you dare to bear the name of the childeren from my people

My avatar is always hungry.. So don`t tease the Wolf.. Especially an alpha Wolf.

[Joseignacio]

I think he must be writing about one of the earlier maps of the thread, first post:



Although in this case it's Harad but not Mordor.

[ksenagos]

Firstly, Gondor is analogous to Byzantium, not Italy. Byzantium was the remains of a great empire where only the eastern part still held storng, just like Gondor. Which makes Osgiliath Constantinople, built on the devide on east and west on the bosperos straight/anudin. Which makes Italy Rohan actually. Which at this time was inhabited by the Lagobards, a Germanic people from the North. In tolkiens works the Rohirrim was Anglo-Saxon, but the Legobards were close cusins of the Anglo-Saxons.


As for the Evil factions, The Corsairs of Umbar and Haradrim are pretty obvious counterparts to arabs in the middle east and the African north coast (Corsairs of Umbar were former Numenorian colonies, similar to the Corsairs of North Africa were previously Roman terretory in North Africa, see it works!) while the Rhun would be turks I guess. As for the Variags, that is a name used for the Rus Varangians. I also think they are described as grim axemen in the Return of the King. So the Kievan Rus is the best bet. The Vainriders should then be peshengs or some other nomadic steppe tribe.



As for mordor? The Black Sea, Right next to Gondor

I agree with this analogy. Byzantium was the shadow of the glorious Roman empire...similar to Gondor being the remnants of Arnor. The byzantines (gondor) for many years held against the various eastern invasions including persians, seljuks, ottomans etc.The massive numbers of the lightly armoured orcs reminds me of the medieval Europe view on arab speaking (muslim) populations of that time (while in many cases medieval muslim kingdoms were far more advanced that most of european kingdoms at least till enlightment). And Constantinople (Osciliath) as mentioned above is the last choke point that the byzantines defended after anatolia-asia minor (east osciliath) fell to the ottomans (Mordor). The Ottoman empire was one of the most succesfull empires with several client states including Egypt (easterlings????) and at constant conflict witht the rest of the europe after the fall of Constantinople. The most notable war was against Hungary(Mayars) famous for their cavalry (Rohan??)

[Spectre48]

I actually updated this, but never posted the update in this forum. For those who were/are still interested, here was the updated version of my maps:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

That's much better. A prettier, updated version of my Middle Europe. Here we have Middle Earth! Ignore the Iberian peninsula for now... and maybe the Italian one. I'll get to those later. But this map is leaving someone out!


Rhun! And I guess Dale. Don't know why, but I've never really liked Dale. Eventually I'd like to find a way to get rid of, or incorporate into my story, Nogorod and the Turkish areas. Perhaps incorporate Balchoth and the Wainriders somewhere...


Here we have the juicy part of LOTR once again - Gondor, Rohan, Mordor, and Harad. I've also added Umbar, influenced by a picture provided by queermobile (thanks again!)
The blue country is where I think the Anduin would have been. Somewhere in here, at least. It would have connected the Mediterranean with the Baltic. On the eastern banks, bordering Mordor, is the Gondorian province of Ithilien, and to the south of that is South Gondor, constantly fought over between Gondor and Harad/Umbar. You can see Khand off to the east, in Turkey, as well.
The white areas you see I have labelled as "New and Unclaimed Lands". This will be a theme repeated through the maps. I gave southern Italy to Khand, mostly because I didn't have enough nation points to add any more provinces to my New and Unclaimed Lands, and no more slots for custom civilizations. It's actually kind of grown on me, though. I'm leaning on giving it to Umbar instead, since it would make a bit more sense considering all the lore detailing Gondorian conquests of Umbar.
Lastly, I'll mention the Dagorlad. It was actually politically a part of Mordor, I would think. Also known simply as the "Battle Plain", the Dead Marshes would be in the western border provinces somewhere.


Here we have the northeastern edge of the map. Again, the blue country is a river - this time the River Running, flowing from the Sea of Rhun to the Lonely Mountain/Laketown. On one side of the river you have Rhovanion, stretching to Mirkwood (and technically includes Mirkwood), and on the other is Rhun. The Misty Mountains here are actually the Grey Mountains - I just kept it as one country because of a lack of custom slots. Lastly, again, I have the same Mirkwood/Dol Guldur placement.


The Misty Mountains! You can see I have them stretching down to Rhun, since that's where they would extend to before the cataclysm. Most of them, including Moria, are under water. Lorien and the east bank of the Anduin make up most of the rest of the peninsula, save for the south. This small strip, along with part of Denmark and northern Germany are Fangorn. Isengard is on the southwestern edge of the Misty Mountains, with Dunland nearby. I made Dunland a bit too large, and it's southeast of Isengard instead of northwest, but it's a small enough scope to be able to place them here and not have the map look too messed up.


I know how much most of you love this map! Yes, I've kept Ireland as the Shire, and yes I've kept England as Arnor. Let's get this straight: The Shire was a land that was an autonomous part of Arnor. So, one could say that the Shire IS Arnor, and thus it IS placed in England. I'd love to explain further my reasoning. And I will. Cardolan is another nation that probably shouldn't be there... Or at least should probably be a bit more squished up towards Arnor, since it was part of Arnor. Minhiriath and Enedwaith, lands of wild men, are also represented here.


Finally, we have an issue. I've covered almost all of Europe, North Africa and Turkey... Except for Spain. Now I've come up with two explanations for this.
1. The Lindon Proposition - the Teal country would be Lindon - the Elves. Somehow, in this version, Lindon would have had to shift from the northeast, collided with the south/Gondor, and form Spain. The Mountains separating Lindon from the Shire and Eriador/Arnor would be the Pyrenees. This one is a bit of a stretch, and I have other reasons for not thinking it that I'll get to later.
2. The Gondor Proposition - the purple country is an extension of Gondor, and the Pyrenees are just broken off of the White Mountains (the Alps). This would suggest that a large part of Gondor's southern coast was flooded.

And finally, two maps that I find really interesting after putting them next to each other, and the reason why I don't like my Lindon Proposition:



Note the backwards C shaped mass buried beneath the sea, just west Ireland, in the game map, and notice how close it is in shape to the landmass just west of the Shire in the Middle Earth map? (The Shire is right around/south of where the 'ARTH' in ARTHEDAIN' is.

[♔atthias♔]

I actually updated this, but never posted the update in this forum. For those who were/are still interested, here was the updated version of my maps:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

That's much better. A prettier, updated version of my Middle Europe. Here we have Middle Earth! Ignore the Iberian peninsula for now... and maybe the Italian one. I'll get to those later. But this map is leaving someone out!


Rhun! And I guess Dale. Don't know why, but I've never really liked Dale. Eventually I'd like to find a way to get rid of, or incorporate into my story, Nogorod and the Turkish areas. Perhaps incorporate Balchoth and the Wainriders somewhere...


Here we have the juicy part of LOTR once again - Gondor, Rohan, Mordor, and Harad. I've also added Umbar, influenced by a picture provided by queermobile (thanks again!)
The blue country is where I think the Anduin would have been. Somewhere in here, at least. It would have connected the Mediterranean with the Baltic. On the eastern banks, bordering Mordor, is the Gondorian province of Ithilien, and to the south of that is South Gondor, constantly fought over between Gondor and Harad/Umbar. You can see Khand off to the east, in Turkey, as well.
The white areas you see I have labelled as "New and Unclaimed Lands". This will be a theme repeated through the maps. I gave southern Italy to Khand, mostly because I didn't have enough nation points to add any more provinces to my New and Unclaimed Lands, and no more slots for custom civilizations. It's actually kind of grown on me, though. I'm leaning on giving it to Umbar instead, since it would make a bit more sense considering all the lore detailing Gondorian conquests of Umbar.
Lastly, I'll mention the Dagorlad. It was actually politically a part of Mordor, I would think. Also known simply as the "Battle Plain", the Dead Marshes would be in the western border provinces somewhere.


Here we have the northeastern edge of the map. Again, the blue country is a river - this time the River Running, flowing from the Sea of Rhun to the Lonely Mountain/Laketown. On one side of the river you have Rhovanion, stretching to Mirkwood (and technically includes Mirkwood), and on the other is Rhun. The Misty Mountains here are actually the Grey Mountains - I just kept it as one country because of a lack of custom slots. Lastly, again, I have the same Mirkwood/Dol Guldur placement.


The Misty Mountains! You can see I have them stretching down to Rhun, since that's where they would extend to before the cataclysm. Most of them, including Moria, are under water. Lorien and the east bank of the Anduin make up most of the rest of the peninsula, save for the south. This small strip, along with part of Denmark and northern Germany are Fangorn. Isengard is on the southwestern edge of the Misty Mountains, with Dunland nearby. I made Dunland a bit too large, and it's southeast of Isengard instead of northwest, but it's a small enough scope to be able to place them here and not have the map look too messed up.


I know how much most of you love this map! Yes, I've kept Ireland as the Shire, and yes I've kept England as Arnor. Let's get this straight: The Shire was a land that was an autonomous part of Arnor. So, one could say that the Shire IS Arnor, and thus it IS placed in England. I'd love to explain further my reasoning. And I will. Cardolan is another nation that probably shouldn't be there... Or at least should probably be a bit more squished up towards Arnor, since it was part of Arnor. Minhiriath and Enedwaith, lands of wild men, are also represented here.


Finally, we have an issue. I've covered almost all of Europe, North Africa and Turkey... Except for Spain. Now I've come up with two explanations for this.
1. The Lindon Proposition - the Teal country would be Lindon - the Elves. Somehow, in this version, Lindon would have had to shift from the northeast, collided with the south/Gondor, and form Spain. The Mountains separating Lindon from the Shire and Eriador/Arnor would be the Pyrenees. This one is a bit of a stretch, and I have other reasons for not thinking it that I'll get to later.
2. The Gondor Proposition - the purple country is an extension of Gondor, and the Pyrenees are just broken off of the White Mountains (the Alps). This would suggest that a large part of Gondor's southern coast was flooded.

And finally, two maps that I find really interesting after putting them next to each other, and the reason why I don't like my Lindon Proposition:



Note the backwards C shaped mass buried beneath the sea, just west Ireland, in the game map, and notice how close it is in shape to the landmass just west of the Shire in the Middle Earth map? (The Shire is right around/south of where the 'ARTH' in ARTHEDAIN' is.

big work thanks for sharing
greetings atthias

[Gallus]

Mordor is Anatolia and Bosporus is the Black Gate.