Disloyal vassals / minor town siege defence / bows or slings? And any other misc questions I come up with

[Aenima]

1 - Why have my vassals both betrayed me in the space of a couple turns? Initially the Mauri rebelled against me (the WRE) after being conquered - fair enough, probably due to me only having just conquered them and not being overly strong - but now the Alamans have also rebelled despite the emperor having a full stack outside their city and having got relations up to a point of about +80/100. Even though we're at war I think my relations with them may still even be improving! Is this purely due to them being AI and making a bid for indepdenence or is there something else at play here? Something I could have done? I kept my armies right next to their towns and made trade agreements with them so we seemed on good terms.

2 - For people who feel like they can utterly shred the enemy when defending your unwalled settlements, how do you do it? I've got a general feeling of how to fight them (don't fight in the open streets, defend the entrances into the "town square" so to speak, barricading one entrance off and possibly placing an archer on the barricades to kill attackers. If strapped for men then have the cavalry free to flank enemies attacking the weaker unit before transitioning to outflank those attacking the other unit; if I have lots of men try and position my front line unit so that a support unit can attack and flank the enemy from the side once they engage) but I don't know if this is really the best way to fight a battle. To be honest I can't think of any better way to do it but I always find myself wondering if there are better defensive tactics I just don't know about. Any input?

3 - Which do you prefer, slingers or archers and why? Slingers seem better in that they do more damage than archers and archers don't seem to do a whole lot of AP dmg so there's not much for slingers to miss out on there. Between the higher base damage and quicker reload times I feel like slingers are better as a field unit but am unsure of whether that's a rookie mistake as I definitely appreciate fire arrows on archers defending a barricade. What's your take on them?

EDIT:
4 - As the WRE when/how did you stabilise public order? It's coming up on 410AD but I've still got what feels like constant rebellions. Pretty much every turn I'm having to defend at least 1 town from rebels/separatists and it's just become a drag that stops me wanting to play because I want to get on with the campaign, not essentially repeat the same battle over and over. It feels like even when I've built governor's houses, auditoriums and sanitation in my cities I'm still constantly in the red

5 - Again as the WRE what would you recommend as policy for conquering vs subjugating? Typically the north African tribes seem docile enough but in my current campaign the Gaetuli keep revolting, and in Britain the Ebdanians and the Caledonians give me the same problem; similarly the Franks and Saxons rebelled against me for no reason (or does a civil war starting influence puppet states to secede? I don't know). On the one hand I like having vassals as I can trade with them, receive tribute and recruit units from them (and with a mod that allows for more units, as it should be, it's much better) but it seems they're incredibly fickle - but then if I conquer them I make far less money, especially due to the corruption penalty. And then there's the public order problem again! Just feels impossible.

6 - Are Western Auxilia Palatina supposed to have an "eastern" voice? I don't know if it's potentially a mod-interference but some reason the general's speeches/the unit's responses sound exactly like Sassanid voicepacks.

[Fanest]

1. alot depends on faction leader stance - loyal, traditional, rebellious, hates big empires etc. and ofc ur faction reputation. Many times killing just faction leader can change a rebellious faction into most loyal one

2. it all depends on type of settlement but in general usually u block just the main square and then take your scout out and later bring him in to do some hammer and anvil

3. slingers have more dps than archers because they shoot faster but then they also have less ammo, shorter range on the positive side they also slow down units. This makes them perfect for killing more expensive archers or slowing down cav charges and other lightly equipped shock inf - or killing anything that needs to get off the field asap. Use archers with heavy shoot while shooting at inf and they will do reasonably well. Archers are also pretty good for lowering morale of units (have one shoot whistling and another fire arrows and u will see a huge morale drop.

[Turumba]

Fanest =fastest. Anyway...

1 - One thing to look at is the character traits of the current leader of the subjugated faction. If he has traits like: Hates Romans, hates rival empires and so on, (basicly everything which influence you relationship in a negativ way) try to kill him via agents. Opportunist for example. If you loose a bit of strength rank via an army lost or loosing a settlement, they might attack. If you kill off the current bad guy, doesn't have to mean the next one is any better, though.

2 - I guess, i dont do it in any other way, but all Inf with something throwable will join the shooters on the walls (wall of the "town square" and if not needed elsewhere of course). No fire at will, because I always want to use them against a valuable enemy (maybe general, maybe axeman, maybe very good horses). Same counts for slingers or archers. Always best target: Enemy general.

3 - Archers for me. Because of the amount of munition and the moral killer (once the enemy general is dead): two archers, one use flamingshot and other use whistling shot (make sure you dont shoot near or over you own guys, otherwise, they will suffer moralwise as well). Slingers are fine.. dont get me wrong, but they emptying the ammo too fast. But Slingers on the flank to lure enemy cav to your cav.. sweet.

[econ21]

On (2), unwalled city defence, with just the default garrison, I generally hug a tower. I don't bother with the city centre, unless there are no towers - let the AI waste time and its general thinking the city centre means anything (except a paltry +3 morale). I rely on towers to do the killing while my Roman infantry hold the enemy. My own archers use fire arrows most of the time, focusing on AI cav or just to apply the -9 morale modifier; they don't kill much.

I pick the tower with the best chokepoint: most times, the AI will only approach from one direction, so you just need a fairly narrow road that is overlooked by the tower (some towers are "round the corner" of the adjacent street and so useless for firing down it). Ideally the approach can be blocked by one unit - spears if the AI has cav followed by swords when the cav is dead. But if not, swords in defensive tetsudo can beat most cav except decent shock cav who get a good charge in. Defensive tetsudo can also withstand a lot of missile fire.

I normally pick the tower furthest from where the AI sets up - essential if they have an onager. I want the AI infantry to waste its strength taking the other towers before it gets to mine. If your tower is far from the AI deployment, their cavalry will run ahead of its infantry and impale itself on your spears. I try to avoid AI swords or axes as they shred Roman infantry, sadly.

I might set up close to the AI if his general looks killable - which to me, usually means deployed in a group on a flank and not with onagers or swords/axes. Let his spears/cav get enmeshed on my infantry and try to kill him with a rear cavalry charge. A memorable variation is defending against naval assaults, when your light marines may be able to kill their general at the start of the battle due to his sea sickness.

I set up my scout cavalry hiding in woods or dash it to woods as soon as the battle ends. I never reveal them unless the AI cavalry is dead - I doubt there is a single AI cavalry unit that cannot beat scouts! Unless trying to kill the general, scouts are mainly for hunting down routers, so that entire units perish and to make sure enemy onagers don't survive the battle. My scouts often rack up 250+ kills. I don't use rear charges as much as some other posters suggest - against a full AI stack, there are typically too many uncommitted AI units to permit that. Even two skirmishers can mess up a cav unit.

I put the barricade closest to my tower. Sometimes to block an entrance but more often as a distraction to the AI. It will typically send its first infantry unit on the scene to attack the barricade giving you more alone time with its cavalry. I've even seen an AI crossbow unit expend all its ammo futilely shooting at the barricade.

My aim in garrison defence is not to win - unless versus Rebels - but to greatly wound the AI. I want their heavy infantry wounded from taking undefended towers; I want their cav destroyed on my spears and then my scouts try to kill as many unprotected missile units they can. Sometimes I get lucky and win, but usually 4 Roman units are not going to beat 20 AI ones. Often I'll knock a full stack down to half strength, with the most awkward units for a field battle (cav and onagers) stripped out.

Sometimes I will cheese a draw if the AI is passively holding the town centre (or a win if it is doing so under tower fire!) but that is tedious.

[Emperor Arcturus Mengsk]

I'd say crossbows are the best when it comes to city defence but you need to wait for the AI to inevitably blob it's forces in the narrow space it always does and then position accordingly and unleash hell. They easily wrack up more than 500 kills each, which is pretty much 1/4 - 1/5 of the enemy army for each unit of crossbow

[Aenima]

Thanks for the responses guys, really appreciate it. Got a few new ones though, so feel free to chip in on these

- As the WRE when/how did you stabilise public order? It's coming up on 410AD but I've still got what feels like constant rebellions. Pretty much every turn I'm having to defend at least 1 town from rebels/separatists and it's just become a drag that stops me wanting to play because I want to get on with the campaign, not essentially repeat the same battle over and over. It feels like even when I've built governor's houses, auditoriums and sanitation in my cities I'm still constantly in the red

- Again as the WRE what would you recommend as policy for conquering vs subjugating? Typically the north African tribes seem docile enough but in my current campaign the Gaetuli keep revolting, and in Britain the Ebdanians and the Caledonians give me the same problem; similarly the Franks and Saxons rebelled against me for no reason (or does a civil war starting influence puppet states to secede? I don't know). On the one hand I like having vassals as I can trade with them, receive tribute and recruit units from them (and with a mod that allows for more units, as it should be, it's much better) but it seems they're incredibly fickle - but then if I conquer them I make far less money, especially due to the corruption penalty. And then there's the public order problem again! Just feels impossible.

- Are Western Auxilia Palatina supposed to have an "eastern" voice? I don't know if it's potentially a mod-interference but some reason the general's speeches/the unit's responses sound exactly like Sassanid voicepacks.

Thanks

[yupper]

As the WRE when/how did you stabilise public order? It's coming up on 410AD but I've still got what feels like constant rebellions. Pretty much every turn I'm having to defend at least 1 town from rebels/separatists and it's just become a drag that stops me wanting to play because I want to get on with the campaign, not essentially repeat the same battle over and over. It feels like even when I've built governor's houses, auditoriums and sanitation in my cities I'm still constantly in the red

Either governors or generals leading stacks of armies can help stabilize a region until whatever is causing the public order drop (ie war devastation) is gone, or until you finish constructing the public order building/upgrade. Minus the public order caused by war and the sacking of settlement (one of the reason your public order is dropping is precisely due to the battles from the rebellions), the biggest source of instability to WRE's public order is going to be migration. You also need to keep an eye on the sort of traits your governors are accumulating. Sometimes, they can accumulate negative public order traits that outweigh any public order benefits their governorship and edicts can bring.

Keep in mind that the bulk of the WRE campaign -is- about stabilizing the empire. The main objective prior to the invasion of Attila is to ensure all the provinces west of Germania are firmly under your control, so when Attila arrives, you can focus entirely on the defense of the eastern front.

Building management is also important because some buildings generate negative public order. In most provinces, I ever only build public order, sanitation, and food buildings. It's only after those provinces are fully secure and stabilized that I move on to constructing income buildings like resource extraction (ie goldsmiths) or research bonous buildings.

Don't know if you've seen it yet, but check out the WRE survival tactics thread:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ost-your-ideas

- Again as the WRE what would you recommend as policy for conquering vs subjugating? Typically the north African tribes seem docile enough but in my current campaign the Gaetuli keep revolting, and in Britain the Ebdanians and the Caledonians give me the same problem; similarly the Franks and Saxons rebelled against me for no reason (or does a civil war starting influence puppet states to secede? I don't know). On the one hand I like having vassals as I can trade with them, receive tribute and recruit units from them (and with a mod that allows for more units, as it should be, it's much better) but it seems they're incredibly fickle - but then if I conquer them I make far less money, especially due to the corruption penalty. And then there's the public order problem again! Just feels impossible.

I only maintain client states in "border provinces" to act as buffers, not "behind the lines", precisely because of the chance they may rebel. this means I always conquer North Africa, Spain, Britannia, and all provinces west of Germania (inclusive). As WRE, your main source of trade income will be ERE, not the client states. It's only until late game, when some players decide they want to unify the empire and go to war with ERE, that client states may become a replacement for trade income. I also make sure that I never allow a client state to occupy a city (only towns). Cities are too valuable to be left in the hands of someone else.

[Aenima]

Thanks, Yupper. I actually restarted my campaign since the constant rebellions were just doing my head in and have poured my money into improving public order, particularly in Spain, where there were endless uprisings. Sanitation, auditoriums and governor's houses all day every day. Not cheap and it drains food but since I don't need/have big armies at the moment I'm able to afford it for the time being.

As for the puppet state situation, I'm still a bit torn on what to do, as traditionally I found that the African factions were generally loyal vassals. What especially irks me is when puppet states betray you despite having good relations with them, it makes no sense - I understand that a faction leader's traits affect how a faction behaves but I feel that should be reflected in diplomatic relations rather than simply appearing out of nowhere. As I said, though, I feel torn on the conquer vs subjugate issue since puppet states are a viable source of quite a heft amount of income, especially compared to what conquering a place can bring. At least a couple hundred in tribute plus up to twice as much from trade agreements seems to be much better than simply conquering the place and having to build it up/deal with corruption, plus I like it on a role-playing level too! But maybe I'll give it a go and see what the difference is really like between the two. Thanks.

[Tyso3]

My town defence tactic usually involves creating an obvious and tempting target, defended by my best men (spearmen ideally) With skirms/Archers behind. I allow the enemy to throw its full force at the main front then reveal my hidden units (even if just peasents) and flank around them from behind.

When the infantry are about to close the flank i usually get them to hold off and simply surrouned the enemy without engaging (this still affects their morale). I then hit them with flaming arrows (if possible ) or just ranged until they are battered. Then tell my spearmen to stop defending and activley attacking the enemy (even though they barely move) while letting the light units attack from rear.

9/10 this works, but it all depends on how good the enemy force is. a full stack of elites make this impossible to do, but a regular 20 stack army vs a 10 stack garrison, i can usually win.

[Aenima]

Interesting that you mention making the spearmen attack before sending in your swordsmen, Tyso; do they turn to face the swordsmen if you don't do this first? I've often wondered if that needs to happen before the flanking force should attack.

[Tyso3]

Units are less likely to withdraw from a fight (not rout) if the enemy force is attacking them too. A defending force (set to not attack just defend) will last longer but the enemy has pull away quickly when needed, attacking them pins them in but also causes both flanks to be activley attacked.

[Charbel]

Hi.. about stablising provinces, I restart a campaign some times until my faction leader have a decent trait, to start,
turn1:
1things first: diplomacy, ask every other faction to join you against someone, at least 3 or 4 will comply, PAY NOTHING, you are the WRE, you demand and others obey. (EDIT: every neighbour that have no enemy, will find one, probably you, prevent enemy alliances before they are forged.)
check every province one by one, one town needs a sanitation building, if some town have a resource( ex gold, wine) that creates squalor or a port, this is the one you HAVE to choose, do the necessary destruction if needed,
tear down every military port except one,
tear down every trade port, build fish ports everywhere.
most resources building chains have good and bad choices, few porcent recruit discount is useless if you can have more iron to sell.
biuld a church on the province of the mediterranean sea islands,
disband 2 useless legions,

create start campaign save backup if not on legendary,

turn 2
biuld everything you need to balance provinces, increase trade goods and raise every troop available
fight every battle, dont auto resolve,

tips: Have one legion with exp bonus traits recruiting n a province with recruitment bonus, have other legions to do the moving.
recruitment cost is around 2 turns of upkeep for the early game, keep it in mind, have troop and garrisons in every province of the german border, never let a horde sneak in, If one does, divert the required troops to end this faction for good,




Your objective:
> get every squalor buildings destroyed, until sanitation goes green.
> tear down every church, you can save Rome church, but demolish it to lowest level,
> put governors on strategic places, ROME, Carhaginensis, Ratia Noricum, take the ones that have many borders, goes church edict,
> Some provinces have traits you have to use, Culture income bonus in rome for example,
> Few provinces will make you money, the rest will suck you dry, these few provinces have to achieve food surplus,
> shuffle around generals/ governors with the most desired traits, your faction leader is best to be Governor, but the best governors have to go to best provinces now,
>

EDIT: turn 1 using this strategy will have you demolishing almost every biulding above tier 1 at turn 1, I don t really know if this is the best strategy available, but the money available on turn 2 enables you to raise every troop you disbanded with an increased exp point or two,