Dangerous US cops , why it should concern more than just presuure groups

[mongrel]

warning ---all links may contain upsetting material or bad /threatening language


This thread was prompted by a wtf sight of a policeman charging guns blazing at an unarmed man in a petrol station, who was trying to comply with an instruction to show a driver's licence.. I cannot fathom how such complete recklessness can manifest itself in uniform.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XFYTtgZAlE

Despite the bleatings of some..........eg

The whole narrative that cops are killing blacks is dishonest at best. In fact, it's dangerous in how it misdirects attention

Intellectually lazy groups spew this garbage yet when faced with the facts as in my last post, resort to yelling "racist".

I see such recklessness having real outcomes for victims, some of whom are seriously injured or killed by people who are not fit to be hired to protect citizens .It demands attention in my view. It is right and proper to expect some irritating questions during a police stop. It is not reasonable to expect such to escalate to being a violent or lethal encounter.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/p...lice-shooting/


And as a variant on how many cops does it take to change a light bulb , how about how many does it take to manhandle a one-legged man on crutches? 14 apparently.

https://medium.com/matter/i-watched-...q-1b3a9bf10e0f


And it is more than just about the victims. Apart from tarnishing the good work of decent policemen, these people are draining tax money.

For example the citizens of Inkster, Michigan are going to pay directly for the compensation offered to a victim of an unwarranted police beating.In my part of the world, people who may have commited minor trafic violations just get a ticket.

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/l...-tape/31986806

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2...lice-brutality


This behaviour isn't confined to targeted black motorists. A white teenager was killed in dodgy circumstances, the only justification offered being that his date carried a minute amount of weed, the possession of which is now perfectly legal in some states.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/08/06/us...lice-shooting/

So the question I pose is this, why are #blacklivesmatter seemingly leading the opposition to out of control police districts? Shouldn't all Americans be asking wtf is happening and that something be done?

[Emperor Arcturus Mengsk]

I just want to add that police seem to be killing a lot of dogs lately too. I know it doesn't matter to most but it matters to me!

[mongrel]

I just want to add that police seem to be killing a lot of dogs lately too. I know it doesn't matter to most but it matters to me!

Actually it does matter, whether they are considered as part of a family, or just property, the police should have justifiable reasons to extinguish canine lives.

This blog suggests this may not the case for many dogs (contains bad language). So let's widen the discussion to all lethal /dangerous misconduct or incompetence, whatever the race or species.

https://dogmurders.wordpress.com/

As one victim of a dog slaying said "“So I get to bury my dog because an officer couldn’t back up and close the ing gate,"

[Phier]

And yet you opposed an armed citizenry. Interesting.


But anyways, I clicked on one link...

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/l...-tape/31986806

Why does the tape START when the fights already well underway without any lead up?

[Davius]

warning ---all links may contain upsetting material or bad /threatening language


This thread was prompted by a wtf sight of a policeman charging guns blazing at an unarmed man in a petrol station, who was trying to comply with an instruction to show a driver's licence.. I cannot fathom how such complete recklessness can manifest itself in uniform.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XFYTtgZAlE

Despite the bleatings of some..........eg



I see such recklessness having real outcomes for victims, some of whom are seriously injured or killed by people who are not fit to be hired to protect citizens .It demands attention in my view. It is right and proper to expect some irritating questions during a police stop. It is not reasonable to expect such to escalate to being a violent or lethal encounter.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/p...lice-shooting/


And as a variant on how many cops does it take to change a light bulb , how about how many does it take to manhandle a one-legged man on crutches? 14 apparently.

https://medium.com/matter/i-watched-...q-1b3a9bf10e0f


And it is more than just about the victims. Apart from tarnishing the good work of decent policemen, these people are draining tax money.

For example the citizens of Inkster, Michigan are going to pay directly for the compensation offered to a victim of an unwarranted police beating.In my part of the world, people who may have commited minor trafic violations just get a ticket.

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/l...-tape/31986806

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2...lice-brutality


This behaviour isn't confined to targeted black motorists. A white teenager was killed in dodgy circumstances, the only justification offered being that his date carried a minute amount of weed, the possession of which is now perfectly legal in some states.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/08/06/us...lice-shooting/

So the question I pose is this, why are #blacklivesmatter seemingly leading the opposition to out of control police districts? Shouldn't all Americans be asking wtf is happening and that something be done?

You seem to love me. I'm flattered.

You cherry pick some vids and conveniently left out this from my post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/graphi...ice-shootings/

Let's do some math, shall we?

A country of 320,000,000+ and 642 shot by police. 502 using a deadly weapon. (Justified) 36 using a vehicle as a weapon (justified) toy weapons 22 (justified)


GENDER
Male617
Female25

WEAPON
Deadly weapon502
Vehicle36
Toy weapon22
Unarmed62
Unknown20
RACE
White316
Black168 (a STAGGERING 24 of them unarmed, which does not automatically mean the police shooting was not justified)
Hispanic101
Other20
Unknown37
SIGNS OF MENTAL ILLNESS
Yes169
No or unknown473

For a nation of 320,000,000 these numbers are infintesimal. In some of your links, were/are these bad cops being prosecuted?

I could cherry pick vids of criminals being criminals, and criminals attacking cops all week long... All MONTH long even.

You obviously hate a certain country. That's your right. You seem to hate cops too but I'm betting they're the first ones you call when there's a problem.

If one were to say, whine about something dangerous, how's about some inner city violence and murder:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2...2015/29879091/

Staggering numbers. Your post should be renamed "Dangerous inner city folk murder each other all week yet hyperbolic media and Internet posters somehow try to focus on tiny numbers of police shootings (overwhelmingly justified btw)"

And yet you opposed an armed citizenry. Interesting.


But anyways, I clicked on one link...

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/l...-tape/31986806

Why does the tape START when the fights already well underway without any lead up?

Because showing the vid in entirety and giving real context would not fit the narrative that "police bad to black people ZOMG!"

[conon394]

I would agree. I think the problems are two fold a culture of arrogance and power and lack of training. But...

I have to say since America is awash in guns and its easy to see how Police might be on edge.

That being said I still think that points likely to a lack of training as well. As I recall back in the late 90s a black man (unarmed) shot a dozens of times by two teams of police in NYC. They thought they saw a gun or something but really they all just sort of panicked as soon as one officer shot. I recall a really good editorial in the NYC by an ex cop and ex Marine who argued at the time NYC had just gone from revolver to high capacity 9mm guns (think glock or something). But had done nor real alteration to training to live fire incident drills to make sure cadets would not loos their heads and maintained only basic range proficiently drills for guns.

And that's NYC, I really doubt a lot of small burg towns have even half of their training and retraining.

Anyway back to the point professionalism does work and that is what seems to missing. Back in time a way I was speeding in Michigan on I 94 (to a an overnight IT job) and pulled over by a single female Michigan state trooper. Now my car had tinted windows and at night so I was not surprised she approached with flashlight and gun out.

But she was an absolute professional. None of the do you know why I pulled you over BS. She simply said you were going 15 over. I said about that yes. She than indicated that in following me I had also dropped down to under the construction speed limit for the active night construction zones she had followed me through. What was theuy I said said you were looking in the back all the Server stuff in the boxes needs to up a running in Kalamazoo by the morning

Thus she wrote a five over ticket, and said good luck on the job working all night it is not fun and said she needed to get back to watch the first construction zone. With one warning don't drive more than five over there are two more troopers ahead and if they clock you at over that I'll have to notice your tabs are expired.

Now if was not a pasty white Pole with a Detroit accent would I have gotten that light a rap on the knuckles - I dunno. But It endeared the Mitten's State Police to me forever. No continuing aggressiveness and just a reasonable conversation and punishment for what was less than could have received. On balance not a bad thing I had to pay the state. She got a light show that likely made every other driver slow down thinking I was taped for speeding in the slow down areas (fines double to triple).

But maybe those days have passed and now cops just blaze away.

Protect and Serve right? If you want to be a cop except the same risk Fire Fighters have to accept. Pulling you gun and using it should be the last option not like step one - open fire. Take the white kid with pot story. Really? It looks to me like he panicked and tried to run away. How many cops are actually standing in front or behind a car they pulled over - none in my experience and I got two misdemeanors and more tickets than I can count on two hands to my credit. Just step away and write down his plate number no need to play Rambo with some kid's life white or black or brown or whatever.

@Davius

How is using a toy weapon a justified reason to be killed?

And given the thin blue line I am sorry I not buying Justified as the equivalent of credible.

[Davius]

@Davius

How is using a toy weapon a justified reason to be killed?

And given the thin blue line I am sorry I not buying Justified as the equivalent of credible.

Seriously or joking? If a person points a gun at a cop that cop can shoot to stop the threat. He has no time to determine if the gun is real. Some toy guns are exact replicas of real guns. Read up on it. Laws are being passed to outlaw realistic guns in many municipalities to prevent just this from happening.

Come on, Sir. You HAVE to be kidding.

As to your last post: don't get caught up in the hype. Do your research. Over 1million law enforcement officers in the country. How many of these incidents are we talking about in reality?

I'm not sure but isn't the pot kid story still being determined? IF the kid did as the cop says, the cop was permitted to use deadly force. If not, send that cop to the slammer.

It's easy to get caught up in the "KID MURDERED BY COP FOR A JOINT" hyperbole. Smart people will wait for the facts. Do so.

[mongrel]

And yet you opposed an armed citizenry. Interesting.

My views on whether the majority of American citizens are fit to carry firearms are well known

But anyways, I clicked on one link...

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/l...-tape/31986806

Why does the tape START when the fights already well underway without any lead up?

Buggered if I know, you may refer your question to the person who filmed this.

Lengthy apologia missing the point entirely

Just because decent police may kill people justifiably in order to perform their duties (perhaps gun control would lessen the need for this in the long term) does not give incompetent or reckless officers licence to endanger the general public or even murder them. Apologists like yourself aren't being listened anymore thank goodness.Black communities perceive that police are killing people with impunity by racists, understandable but perhaps not entirely correct.But we have already seen the impact on politics in the South. If I was a citizen I would resent having to pay compensation for needless deaths or beatings because some official cannot train its officers properly , or recruits morons. How come most people in the First World can walk past a dog without shooting it or beating it to death. No use saying that sometimes the police kills an armed robber, that is not the point. At a traffic stop, an innocent person can expect nothing more than smugness , sarcasm and perhaps a ticket, not a hail of bullets.

And it is not anti-America to point out that killing people and dogs for no lawful reason is repugnant in a modern civilsed society. It is a matter of record that I have criticized UK police for similar behaviour on this forum (Tomlinson and De Menezes).

"IF the kid did as the cop says, the cop was permitted to use deadly force." you say.

In what first world country would someone be blasted away over the suspicion that they might have had some weed, fleeing or not? Is the War on Drugs a total war now?

[Davius]

My views on whether the majority of American citizens are fit to carry firearms are well known

...and no American cares what your views are on the subject.

If you care ohhhh so much about people (or is it that you just LOVE to knock a certain nation), what about the savages killing each other hourly in the Middle East, Africa, and central and South America? Do those lives not matter?

#thoselivesmatter

[mongrel]

...and no American cares what your views are on the subject.

If you care ohhhh so much about people (or is it that you just LOVE to knock a certain nation), what about the savages killing each other hourly in the Middle East, Africa, and central and South America? Do those lives not matter?

#thoselivesmatter

So are you suggesting that Americans do not mourn their dead relatives or dogs? Or they don't care that they have to pay to compensate people for police incompetence? Or that they have no moral compass at all? I expect Americans to behave rather better than ISIS fighters. Or is this the effect of gun ownership, to give people with your views some affinity with Arab bandits who also kill people with impunity.

[Caelifer_1991]

Mongrel is simply pointing out a well known and obvious deficiency in the American judicial system. I on the other hand will happily go out on a limb and say that the U.S. does indeed continue to prove that it is a savage and violent country, a police state with a veneer of democracy covering up what is in fact an oligarchy, filled for the most part with the ignorant dregs of society that fled the more civilised countries whom they could not survive in, and one that any reasonable person does best to avoid. That even its own citizens feel that it is best compared with the likes of Syria and the DRC speaks volumes. My opinion has become one of apathy, which is that if Americans feel so inclined to kill each other then perhaps it is best to ask if it is worth the effort to stop them.

[mongrel]

Mongrel is simply pointing out a well known and obvious deficiency in the American judicial system. I on the other hand will happily go out on a limb and say that the U.S. does indeed continue to prove that it is a savage and violent country, a police state with a veneer of democracy covering up what is in fact an oligarchy, filled with the ignorant dregs of society that fled the more civilised countries whom they could not survive in, and one that any reasonable person does best to avoid. That even its own citizens feel that it is best compared with the likes of Syria and the DRC speaks volumes. My opinion has become one of apathy, which is that if Americans feel so inclined to kill each other then perhaps it is best to ask if it is worth the effort to stop them.

Indeed.

I was rather hoping that the continuing exposure of this conduct in social media would have an impact on the behaviour of police. It hasn't - people are still being killed on the flimsiest basis. I do not understand why there isn't a mass movement against this other than BLM.

What kind of system would allow lethal force against someone who is skiving drug rehabilitation classes?

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/pol...t-parking-lot/

Also someone lawfully holding a BB gun with the intent to purchase it from a Walmart store was gunned down without warning

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/12/16/ju...shooting-suit/

I won't comment on whether the killing was racially motivated, because I expect a competent racist to have more sense. Even if he was outside rather than on his way to purchase the item, he was legally entitled to carry it in Ohio. The victim died through the incompetence of officers.

[Davius]

So are you suggesting that Americans do not mourn their dead relatives or dogs? Or they don't care that they have to pay to compensate people for police incompetence? Or that they have no moral compass at all? I expect Americans to behave rather better than ISIS fighters. Or is this the effect of gun ownership, to give people with your views some affinity with Arab bandits who also kill people with impunity.

Not one of your questions makes any sense to the post of mine you quoted. You're not good at this. Perhaps you should try video games?

My views on whether the majority of American citizens are fit to carry firearms are well known


Buggered if I know, you may refer your question to the person who filmed this.



Just because decent police may kill people justifiably in order to perform their duties (perhaps gun control would lessen the need for this in the long term) does not give incompetent or reckless officers licence to endanger the general public or even murder them. Apologists like yourself aren't being listened anymore thank goodness.Black communities perceive that police are killing people with impunity by racists, understandable but perhaps not entirely correct.But we have already seen the impact on politics in the South. If I was a citizen I would resent having to pay compensation for needless deaths or beatings because some official cannot train its officers properly , or recruits morons. How come most people in the First World can walk past a dog without shooting it or beating it to death. No use saying that sometimes the police kills an armed robber, that is not the point. At a traffic stop, an innocent person can expect nothing more than smugness , sarcasm and perhaps a ticket, not a hail of bullets.

And it is not anti-America to point out that killing people and dogs for no lawful reason is repugnant in a modern civilsed society. It is a matter of record that I have criticized UK police for similar behaviour on this forum (Tomlinson and De Menezes).

"IF the kid did as the cop says, the cop was permitted to use deadly force." you say.

In what first world country would someone be blasted away over the suspicion that they might have had some weed, fleeing or not? Is the War on Drugs a total war now?

The cop allegedly shot the kid because the kid was using his vehicle as a weapon. Allegedly. Not because he had weed. Continue to ignore that all day long, friend.

You spew hyperbole almost as desperately as CNN, FOX, and MSNBC.

[mrmouth]

I have to say since America is awash in guns and its easy to see how Police might be on edge.

And we've had this circle jerk thread before. I don't need another foreign person living in a country that has had similar cases, and subsequent riots that shut down parts of a major city, telling me what is wrong with my country. Like he woke up and thought this thread was finally going to put things in perspective. The hubris is astounding.

If we actually want to boil this down without ugly blanket statements about a large and diverse country; this all goes back to the 21 foot rule that started at the time when street gangs became more heavily armed than the police that were tasked with policing communities. Anyone who entered within the 21 foot personal security bubble of a police officer, during a confrontation, had/has a good chance of getting shot. As officer involved shootings skyrocketed, particularly with unarmed suspects, an emphasis was put on non-lethal restraint which also led to high profile cases of people in horrible physical condition dying while being restrained. So that gave birth to tasers and high profile cases of people dying when those were used.

The missing ingredient in all of this was de-escalation. De-escalation is the only answer in a complex society where some minority groups want to make verbally and physically challenging, and running from police, a rite of passage.

It's a confluence of issues and many are not even being addressed let alone debated.


And yes, there is no gun debate anymore. The minute that a scared minority of the US public owned the debate about a bunch of kids being executed in their school, is the minute that the US thought it was okay as long as the rights of gun owners was protected above all else.

The debate needs to be about the dangerous and scared human beings who roll out the same tired and intellectually bankrupt BS every time there is a high profile shooting. We will get there some day and join the majority of the rest of the human beings. The gun lobby has become a threat to our Republic.

Indeed.

You said indeed to that? In your own thread that I assume you wanted people to take seriously?

[Sphere]

And yet you opposed an armed citizenry. Interesting.

If an armed populace prevented aggressive police policies, the US would have the most passive police in the western world.

I rather think the opposite effect is going on in the US; the police are highly aggressive because weapons are freely available to criminals and they have legitimate fears of being killed.

But go ahead and shoot a few police if you think that will help. Myself, I am more of a Rosa Parks than a Black Panther.

[norse]

American cops shoot, then beat, then villeinize everything that moves or has feelings.

[mongrel]

The cop allegedly shot the kid because the kid was using his vehicle as a weapon. Allegedly. Not because he had weed. Continue to ignore that all day long, friend.

You spew hyperbole almost as desperately as CNN, FOX, and MSNBC.

He approached the vehicle, weapon drawn ,because he suspected the use of weed.

Allegedly and arguably unlikely. I say unlikely because an independent autopsy would suggest so unless US police are armed with Judge Dredd style ricochet ammo. I believe the meaning of posterior is the same in America as it is here.

https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...d-autopsy.html


Even if true, stand out of the way and trace the vehicle's owner. Job done. Same principle as backing away from a dog and shutting the gate rather than blasting it to doggy kingdom come. Your lack of empathy for your fellow citizens is appalling. It is the USA I'm talking about not Al Shebaab.

Not one of your questions makes any sense to the post of mine you quoted. You're not good at this. Perhaps you should try video games?

That is probably because I see Americans as fellow human beings , rather than lumps of meat to be used as target practice.

[mongrel]

And we've had this circle jerk thread before. I don't need another foreign person living in a country that has had similar cases, and subsequent riots that shut down parts of a major city, telling me what is wrong with my country. Like he woke up and thought this thread was finally going to put things in perspective. The hubris is astounding.

It's a confluence of issues and many are not even being addressed let alone debated.

Irony alert.

And yes, there is no gun debate anymore. The minute that a scared minority of the US public owned the debate about a bunch of kids being executed in their school, is the minute that the US thought it was okay as long as the rights of gun owners was protected above all else.

The debate needs to be about the dangerous and scared human beings who roll out the same tired and intellectually bankrupt BS every time there is a high profile shooting. We will get there some day and join the majority of the rest of the human beings. The gun lobby has become a threat to our Republic.

Couldn't put it better myself.

You said indeed to that? In your own thread that I assume you wanted people to take seriously?

There is a perception that a minority of Americans are content with people being blasted away as some sort of right.

[snuggans]

I on the other hand will happily go out on a limb and say that the U.S. does indeed continue to prove that it is a savage and violent country, a police state with a veneer of democracy covering up what is in fact an oligarchy, filled for the most part with the ignorant dregs of society that fled the more civilised countries whom they could not survive in, and one that any reasonable person does best to avoid.

i'm detecting high levels of frustration at former colonies. did you make sure to submit this post to your local UK police department for review? wouldn't want you to get fined or something for saying something edgy. kinda hilarious you're calling us the police state when at the very least our government has made some effort to constrain the NSA (not that i agree with it, but it serves to save some face) while your government deliberates on a proposal so authoritarian it makes our NSA look libertarian by comparison.

there's dangerous policing and then there's comically inefficient policing, have you seen that one video of the machete-wielding man standing on a sidewalk where the police had to call what looked like dozens of officers just to subdue him an eternity after the videographer had begun filming? can't imagine how much worse it could have turned out if he had chosen not to wait calmly for the other 3 or 4 departments to arrive.

[Comrade_Rory]

Honestly, I think there is a huge gun problem in the US and I think that every American who defends their right to own guns is mental.
But this debate is pointless on the internet because the crazy gun-toting Americans will always pull out the "ANTI-AMERICAN!" and "FOREIGNERS TRYING TO TELL US WHAT TO DO!" card.

So, as somebody who is not an American citizen, I don't see it as my place to discuss their weird obsession with guns anymore. If they really don't mind children and black people being gunned down in their masses... that's their problem.
All the evidence to prove that gun control works is there and they've buried their head in the sand and chosen not to accept it because they're apparently a special case. There's not much more we can say.

Americans however, go right ahead and debate your laws with each other. The First Amendment allows you to criticise the Second Amendment.
Edit: I think those are the right amendments. Sorry if I'm completely wrong.