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Thread: Lowering unrest on conquered regions

  1. #41

    Default Re: Lowering unrest on conquered regions

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    This I don't agree. It happened so often in history and so many new factions emerged due to apparently hopless rebellions. Actually, the business of the ruling parties was only to quell such insurgencies, very rarely to conquer other lands. So it's plausible. Also gameplay-wise it's good - it forces the player to keep garrions, which agains is very historical.

    it's fine having constant unrest and rebelions on borders but not in the faction's core settlements, playing as Venice and barely being able to hold my capital it is just not fun for me at all, destroying buildings all the time also feels like a gamey thing, realistically if i dont want a bazzar anymore then i simpy close that building or use it for something else, not destroy it

    as for garrisons i am for free upkeep, it's not an advantage to human player because AI keeps 1-3 units in settlements most of the time too, it should be limited ofc to max 3 units or so

  2. #42

    Default Re: Lowering unrest on conquered regions

    Quote Originally Posted by Dekhatres View Post
    destroying buildings all the time also feels like a gamey thing, realistically if i dont want a bazzar anymore then i simpy close that building or use it for something else, not destroy it
    Those -law buildings are a really nice kick in the public order, that's for sure.

    It makes sense to look specifically for market line, those trade docks and also farms. Before you lay siege to a settlement have a team of assassins sabotage these buildings so that they won't give their "bonuses". And then later on you can "repair" them back if you happen to have a desire to use them.

  3. #43
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Lowering unrest on conquered regions

    Quote Originally Posted by Dekhatres View Post
    it's fine having constant unrest and rebelions on borders but not in the faction's core settlements, playing as Venice and barely being able to hold my capital it is just not fun for me at all
    I think it was actually the most difficult part of a doge's life: to keep Venetians happy. People in the Italians cities were famous for riots and rebellions, also against their own authorities. I think it's realistic

    Quote Originally Posted by Dekhatres View Post
    destroying buildings all the time also feels like a gamey thing, realistically if i dont want a bazzar anymore then i simpy close that building or use it for something else, not destroy it
    I agree on the "gamey" thing. To my mind only a limited number of buildings should be destroyable. Now un-destroyable are only Walls and Roads (afair), but farms or markets should not be such. They are cities' infrastructure and (almost) no ruler would demolish them. But closing them is not realistic either. Simply, a player should find it's way to cope somehow. I have a home rule not to destroy farms, markets, wells, ports, river ports, towers, churches.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dekhatres View Post
    as for garrisons i am for free upkeep, it's not an advantage to human player because AI keeps 1-3 units in settlements most of the time too, it should be limited ofc to max 3 units or so
    If they'd be free upkeep, the economy would have to be balanced in another way - otherwise the player would drown in money (well, Alevaria already is, due to his playstyle, but most of the players no, I conclude from the occassional laments). This is done in HURB: you either have your army in cities and forts and you've got money for building, or you go out with your army, but you don't have any money. This makes you hoarding before etc. - it's another approach to the issue.

  4. #44

    Default Re: Lowering unrest on conquered regions

    Quote Originally Posted by Alavaria View Post
    Those -law buildings are a really nice kick in the public order, that's for sure.

    It makes sense to look specifically for market line, those trade docks and also farms. Before you lay siege to a settlement have a team of assassins sabotage these buildings so that they won't give their "bonuses". And then later on you can "repair" them back if you happen to have a desire to use them.

    it can be quite expensive to repair however, especially when the building gets 100% damaged

  5. #45

    Default Re: Lowering unrest on conquered regions

    Quote Originally Posted by Dekhatres View Post
    it can be quite expensive to repair however, especially when the building gets 100% damaged
    It's fine, in some places you might never want to repair them anyway, but the fact that rebuilding takes so long is far more of a concern than the cash price of a repair. Especially since it also costs more cash to rebuild all the tiers than to repair as well.

    Especially since you can and should get an economy that spins your cash counter out of control.

  6. #46

    Default Re: Lowering unrest on conquered regions

    Quote Originally Posted by Dekhatres View Post
    it's fine having constant unrest and rebelions on borders but not in the faction's core settlements, playing as Venice and barely being able to hold my capital it is just not fun for me at all, destroying buildings all the time also feels like a gamey thing, realistically if i dont want a bazzar anymore then i simpy close that building or use it for something else, not destroy it

    as for garrisons i am for free upkeep, it's not an advantage to human player because AI keeps 1-3 units in settlements most of the time too, it should be limited ofc to max 3 units or so
    Venice player here, after a Pisan campaign. I think I have a solution:

    1. Try using many assasins and get Assasin Guild HQ in Venice. It has a 10% law + 10% law Global Effect buff. Get other cities that have it or the lesser Master Asssasins Guild building (5% law + 5% Global Effect)

    2. Use your first princess and get a sicillian prince as a general and his male children will have Of Venetian Blood and Of Sicilian Blood bonuses (+1 law, -1 popularity, +1 command when attacking, +1 command when attacking ERE, 3%+3%=6% trade income, 5% on tax income). So this family tree will be good for your generals that will lead the armies and govern cities you conquer. They usually build on those traits and get good command and high chiv/dread (when I took Constantinople, moving one general from this tree there gave me 16000 income from 11000, and green PO ob very high taxes)

    3. Always Destroy the market/warehouse/university chains for good PO ( or just damage them with assasins ).

    4. If you want to fast grow core cities (Italy), demolish city watch chain (barracks, archery, stables in castles) for ther negative population growth bonuses. In my PIsan Late era cmapign all of Italy is Huge and Citadel (Bari) with Verona and Anocna still Large cities.

    5. Take care of your familly line: No usurpers, no adoptions, don`t marry FL/FH to princess that have other religion and max charm ( FL has different religion trait is difficult to overcome ). FL/FH must be very good authority wise, so keep them close to the front line in your main army.

    6. If waging wars on multiple fronts and you lack garrisons, use infested spies to nuke the capitals or huge cities you conquered.


    I never had a rebellion in my Venice campaign (first time it happened though) and I own all of Italy, all Iberian Peninsula, all of North Afirca & Egypt (plus Mecca, Tayma, Aqaba, Ascalon), Western Byzentine cities( Greece, ALbania, Bulgaria, Thrace, Dalmatia, etc.), Mediteranean Islands, Occitane and Provence. I have lots of huge cities and capitals and I am yet to have an uprising. It can be done, but you need to plan ahead.

  7. #47

    Default Re: Lowering unrest on conquered regions

    Yeah, the whole destroying buildings is a little bit silly and I think it'd be fine to simply have larger garrison in a captured settlement over a couple of years til the unrest has cooled off would be fine enough for a mechanic. Once your Empire grows further you could get larger public order penalties in your captured provinces since you can "afford" bigger garrisons then. Also, I feel like there should be some kind of a "police" unit, like militia units that grant extra public order. It could be something as simple as having a spear unit named "Militia Guards" or something to that regard.

    Having spies working as propaganda agents can work too though, assuming their upkeep isn't crippling.

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelTheBrave View Post
    Venice player here, after a Pisan campaign.[...] *snip*


    If I may ask, which difficulty did you play at? I'm not the best player of M2TW, especially since it's been a long while so I'd just want to know where I could possibly start off at. Battles don't worry me too much, but in the newer games at higher difficulty some units become unbreakable morale-wise, so I'm wondering if SSHIP changes that.

    Oh
    and another question. The brothels line of buildings give -law but more happiness, the question here comes down to whether the benefit to happiness outweighs the negative happiness from law, otherwise you might as well hold off on building those buildings until you desperately need more growth.
    Last edited by DaReaperZ; December 09, 2016 at 07:32 PM.

  8. #48

    Default Re: Lowering unrest on conquered regions

    Quote Originally Posted by DaReaperZ View Post
    The brothels line of buildings give -law but more happiness, the question here comes down to whether the benefit to happiness outweighs the negative happiness from law, otherwise yhe brothels line of buildings give -law but more happiness, the question here comes down to whether the benefit to happiness outweighs the negative happiness from law, otherwise you might as well hold off on building those buildings until you desperately need more growth.[/FONT]
    Happiness is worth like half of law, because it leads to more growth which means squalor that reduces public order and also reduces your garrison effect. Law doesn't have these issues, and law also reduces corruption which means more income for you.

  9. #49

    Default Re: Lowering unrest on conquered regions

    Quote Originally Posted by Alavaria View Post
    Happiness is worth like half of law, because it leads to more growth which means squalor that reduces public order and also reduces your garrison effect. Law doesn't have these issues, and law also reduces corruption which means more income for you.

    Cool, hey thanks for the info mate! Enjoying the hell out of SS in general and now that I tried this Historical Improvement Project I gotta say, this is somehow even better! I'll be stuck playing M2TW for a while.

  10. #50
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Lowering unrest on conquered regions

    Quote Originally Posted by Alavaria View Post
    Happiness is worth like half of law, because it leads to more growth which means squalor that reduces public order and also reduces your garrison effect. Law doesn't have these issues, and law also reduces corruption which means more income for you.
    I don't understand it quite well. How does happiness lead to more growth? It lowers unrest what many times allows for higher taxes, what limits growth.
    (Obviously, I agree though that law is better than happiness for corruption reasons)
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; December 11, 2016 at 10:45 AM.

  11. #51

    Default Re: Lowering unrest on conquered regions

    Happiness just gives additional growth, is all. Health has an even higher growth associated with it.

  12. #52
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Lowering unrest on conquered regions

    Quote Originally Posted by Alavaria View Post
    Happiness just gives additional growth, is all. Health has an even higher growth associated with it.
    Could you provide more details how it happens? Health (or minus squalor) adds 5% to public order, but also 0,5% to population growth. But what's the rate for happiness? Maybe there's a kind of interaction with the buildings? To be frank, I haven't spotted yet this effect.
    Mod leader of the SSHIP: traits, ancillaries, scripts, buildings, geography, economy.
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  13. #53

    Default Re: Lowering unrest on conquered regions

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    Could you provide more details how it happens? Health (or minus squalor) adds 5% to public order, but also 0,5% to population growth. But what's the rate for happiness? Maybe there's a kind of interaction with the buildings? To be frank, I haven't spotted yet this effect.
    See: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt..._mechanics-xml

    SSHIP has the following:
    Code:
    		<factor name="SPF_BUILDINGS_FUN">
    			<pip_modifier value="0.5"/>
    			<pip_min value="0"/>
    			<pip_max value="100"/>
    		</factor>
    
    		<factor name="SOF_BUILDINGS_FUN">
    			<pip_modifier value="0.4"/>
    			<pip_min value="0"/>
    			<pip_max value="100"/>
    		</factor>
    Health and squalor are different...

    Code:
    		<factor name="SPF_HEALTH">
    			<pip_modifier value="1.0"/>
    			<castle_modifier value="1.0"/>
    			<city_modifier value="0.8"/>
    			<pip_min value="0"/>
    			<pip_max value="100"/>
    		</factor>
    
    		<factor name="SOF_HEALTH">
    			<pip_modifier value="0.5"/>
    			<castle_modifier value="1.0"/>
    			<pip_min value="0"/>
    			<pip_max value="100"/>
    		</factor>
    Code:
    		<factor name="SPF_SQUALOUR">
    			<pip_modifier value="1.0"/>
    			<castle_modifier value="0.75"/>
    			<city_modifier value="1.0"/>
    			<pip_min value="0"/>
    			<pip_max value="200"/>
    		</factor>
    
    		<factor name="SOF_SQUALOUR">
    			<pip_modifier value="0.45"/>
    			<pip_min value="0"/>
    			<pip_max value="25"/>
    		</factor>
    =================================================

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    To be frank, I haven't spotted yet this effect.


    8 (pips) * 0.5 (modifier) * 0.5% (base growth per pip) = 2% growth



    8 (pips) * 0.4 (modifier) * 5% (base order per pip) = 16% happiness which the game rounds to 15%


    The game adds together all the "pips" of a given type (eg: health) and then does the growth/happiness calculations. Then it rounds to (the nearest?) 0.5% growth and 5% public order.

    Then you add the (rounded!) contributions for each type to get the final growth% or public order%

    ==================================================

    1 pip works out to be (ignoring all the rounding thingies)
    • Law.......: 2.5% PO per pip
    • Happiness: 0.875% PO per pip
    • Health....: 0.7% PO per pip


    By the way when you see the information of a building panel and it says something like: Law 10% it actually means "two pips" so actually only 5% public order.



    -2 pips law, +5 pips of happiness, or:

    Code:
        coaching_house city requires factions { northern_european, middle_eastern, eastern_european, greek, southern_european, } and building_present_min_level logging_camp carpenter
        {
          capability
          {
            agent spy  0  requires factions { northern_european, }
            agent assassin  0  requires factions { northern_european, }
            agent spy  0  requires factions { middle_eastern, }
            agent assassin  0  requires factions { middle_eastern, }
            agent spy  0  requires factions { eastern_european, }
            agent assassin  0  requires factions { eastern_european, }
            agent spy  0  requires factions { greek, }
            agent assassin  0  requires factions { greek, }
            agent spy  0  requires factions { southern_european, }
            agent assassin  0  requires factions { southern_european, }
            recruit_pool "Transilvanian Peasants"  1   0.5   4  0  requires factions { hungary, } and hidden_resource hungary and event_counter new_era_begins 1
            recruit_pool "Transilvanian Peasants"  0   0.25   2  0  requires factions { venice, scotland,  england, france, portugal, spain, aragon, moors, pisa, papal_states, sicily, hre, norway, denmark, poland, russia, lithuania, cumans, kwarezm, turks, rum, jerusalem, egypt, milan, byzantium, kievan_rus, teutonic_order, mongols, slave, timurids, } and hidden_resource hungary and event_counter new_era_begins 1
            happiness_bonus bonus 5
            law_bonus bonus -2
            population_growth_bonus bonus 2
            agent_limit assassin 2
            agent_limit spy 3
          }
    On the plus side, once you have maxed out the public order penalty of squalor (at -125% public order) then it doesn't matter if there's growth, since you can't get more squalor public order penalty.
    Last edited by Alavaria; December 12, 2016 at 03:26 AM.

  14. #54
    Zooasaurus's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Any tips on economy and unrest problem?

    In my Andalusia gameplay, every region i conquered is mostly a . They will have a really high unrest even with fullstack garrison, spy and assassin. Especially Tunis. Really, they rebel out like 5 times, 3 times i occupy them back, sack them, and lastly exterminate them, yet they will always rebel. With those garrison means my army upkeep is really huge. But i can't raise my tax anyway since it will anger people. What should i do?

  15. #55

    Default Re: Any tips on economy and unrest problem?

    General with a stack of Dread helps. Also, remove some of the things which give you painful -law (eg: Market, Docklands)

  16. #56
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Any tips on economy and unrest problem?

    The solutions implemented in the EBII should find their way into the SSHIP as well, at some point.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    Troublesome Regions are now integrated into the wider revolts script. What it means is that they trigger more frequently than non-Troublesome Regions. But everywhere (with the exception of a faction's "home" province when they own it) is subject to potential revolts.

    It's not a reactive script triggered by events, it's a random chance of a small stack appearing (with a cooldown to stop them happening repeatedly in quick succession).

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