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Thread: UPDATES: Passed Proposals pending Hex Approval and Implementation

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    Default UPDATES: Passed Proposals pending Hex Approval and Implementation

    BELOW ARE PROPOSALS PASSED BY THE CURIA THAT IS PENDING HEX APPROVAL AND/ OR IMPLEMENTATION.
    I will update OP when new information is given.



    Passed on November 29 2014 [Decision] New Usertitles provided by MMFA
    It has been implemented.

    Passed on July 16 2014 [Decision] Modding Community
    It is in the process of being implemented. However, the TWC University will remain in its present location.

    Passed on August 22 2014 [Decision] Historical Community
    Some of the details are still be ironed out.

    Curator



  2. #2
    Hader's Avatar Things are very seldom what they seem. In my experience, they’re usually a damn sight worse.
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    Default Re: UPDATES: Passed Proposals pending Hex Approval and Implementation

    I'm working mainly on the forum movements (more than what is proposed here) so once hex is fine with all of that, I plan to get it done altogether. This will include the historical community, modding community, and my changes to multiplayer forums, as well as a few other misc movements.

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    Shankbot de Bodemloze's Avatar From the Writers Study!
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    Default Re: UPDATES: Passed Proposals pending Hex Approval and Implementation

    (probably not the best place to post, but as it is here)

    Any update/ETA and the medals for the 2013 modding award winners?
    THE WRITERS' STUDY | THE TRIBUNAL | THE CURIA | GUIDE FOR NEW MEMBERS



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    Hader's Avatar Things are very seldom what they seem. In my experience, they’re usually a damn sight worse.
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    Default Re: UPDATES: Passed Proposals pending Hex Approval and Implementation

    The awards are all done for favorite modders. Is there more in terms of medals that needs to happen?

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    Shankbot de Bodemloze's Avatar From the Writers Study!
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    Default Re: UPDATES: Passed Proposals pending Hex Approval and Implementation

    Brilliant, thanks Hader. As for other medals, nope, just the bronze, silver and gold to favourite modders.
    THE WRITERS' STUDY | THE TRIBUNAL | THE CURIA | GUIDE FOR NEW MEMBERS



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    Augustus Lucifer's Avatar Life = Like a beanstalk
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    Default Re: UPDATES: Passed Proposals pending Hex Approval and Implementation

    Quote Originally Posted by Hader View Post
    I'm working mainly on the forum movements (more than what is proposed here) so once hex is fine with all of that, I plan to get it done altogether. This will include the historical community, modding community, and my changes to multiplayer forums, as well as a few other misc movements.
    Just curious what happened with this, seeing as the proposals are now nearly two years old. Did opinions on the proposals change and a belated veto is in order? Or has the implementation just fallen by the wayside? If it's the latter and there's something I can do to help on the tech-ministrative side of things, let me know. If the former, que sera, sera.

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    Hader's Avatar Things are very seldom what they seem. In my experience, they’re usually a damn sight worse.
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    Default Re: UPDATES: Passed Proposals pending Hex Approval and Implementation

    Everything here is as far as it's going to go for the most part. The historical community stuff isn't going to happen now when we're trying to not add more forums (especially ones we don't feel will be used enough). That said it may find a place in the future, in a similar format.

    Modding community stuff is mostly done, pending potential slight changes depending on how the current setup goes. University isn't moving anywhere still either.

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    Augustus Lucifer's Avatar Life = Like a beanstalk
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    Default Re: UPDATES: Passed Proposals pending Hex Approval and Implementation

    Quote Originally Posted by Hader View Post
    Everything here is as far as it's going to go for the most part. The historical community stuff isn't going to happen now when we're trying to not add more forums (especially ones we don't feel will be used enough). That said it may find a place in the future, in a similar format.

    Modding community stuff is mostly done, pending potential slight changes depending on how the current setup goes. University isn't moving anywhere still either.
    Thanks for the update.

  9. #9

    Default Re: UPDATES: Passed Proposals pending Hex Approval and Implementation

    Quote Originally Posted by Augustus Lucifer View Post
    Just curious what happened with this, seeing as the proposals are now nearly two years old. Did opinions on the proposals change and a belated veto is in order? Or has the implementation just fallen by the wayside? If it's the latter and there's something I can do to help on the tech-ministrative side of things, let me know. If the former, que sera, sera.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hader View Post
    Modding community stuff is mostly done, pending potential slight changes depending on how the current setup goes. University isn't moving anywhere still either.
    Actually, it as implemented as voted on except the university before the roll back. After the roll back, inexplicably it has not be restored. There were minor complaints but mostly out of the fact that the changes were done without any warning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hader View Post
    Everything here is as far as it's going to go for the most part. The historical community stuff isn't going to happen now when we're trying to not add more forums (especially ones we don't feel will be used enough). That said it may find a place in the future, in a similar format.
    I am not sure what you mean. Except for the repository, all the subforums preexist.

    Essentially, any initiative to build communities have been thwarted. The Modding Community has not materialized. The D&D Community thread has turned into a repository of unwanted discussions and the Historical community is dead in the water. It is no wonder their is a negative view of the Curia; decisions made by it has little or no meaning to the site, so why bother. (yes, this is one of many responses I received from citizens).

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    Hader's Avatar Things are very seldom what they seem. In my experience, they’re usually a damn sight worse.
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    Default Re: UPDATES: Passed Proposals pending Hex Approval and Implementation

    I'd have to look more closely again, but didn't the history one add more forums than already exist? In any case, our overall goal is to not add more forums that absolutely necessary, something we're still trying to figure out in some places on the board. I don't discount the importance of historical discussion and that part of the community but I can't call that a priority right now either.

    As for the curia, maybe it can put its mind and matter to something worthwhile then? I don't waste my time reading the majority of what goes on here these days beyond medal proposals or begrudgingly being summoned for some specific reason, but from what I can tell this place is too busy worrying about constitutional technicalities and syntax and waving certain electronic members around instead of being proactive and doing things to actually help the site regardless of its ties to the curia. I stated before the example of me posting a thread for multiplayer forum feedback, posting a call for additional feedback here, and getting few to no non gaming staff citizens actually give feedback. It isn't a catch all example, but it illustrates my thoughts on this place enough for now. The curia can do so much more but instead does jack .


    So for now I leave you with that. I'll definitely be relooking at some forum movements and whatnot, but they are not a priority now. If there are other relevant curial matters to discuss that needs admin input in some way, I'm still as open as ever for that, the curator need only PM me about them. But by the grace of coming from the curia doesn't make it an instant priority either.

  11. #11

    Default Re: UPDATES: Passed Proposals pending Hex Approval and Implementation

    Quote Originally Posted by Hader View Post
    I'd have to look more closely again, but didn't the history one add more forums than already exist? In any case, our overall goal is to not add more forums that absolutely necessary, something we're still trying to figure out in some places on the board. I don't discount the importance of historical discussion and that part of the community but I can't call that a priority right now either.
    I see what you are saying now. Yes, it would create a new subforum (Historical Community or whatever you prefer).

    Quote Originally Posted by Hader View Post
    As for the curia, maybe it can put its mind and matter to something worthwhile then? I don't waste my time reading the majority of what goes on here these days beyond medal proposals or begrudgingly being summoned for some specific reason, but from what I can tell this place is too busy worrying about constitutional technicalities and syntax and waving certain electronic members around instead of being proactive and doing things to actually help the site regardless of its ties to the curia. I stated before the example of me posting a thread for multiplayer forum feedback, posting a call for additional feedback here, and getting few to no non gaming staff citizens actually give feedback. It isn't a catch all example, but it illustrates my thoughts on this place enough for now. The curia can do so much more but instead does jack .
    You will get no argument here. The Curia is as disparate as the site in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hader View Post
    So for now I leave you with that. I'll definitely be relooking at some forum movements and whatnot, but they are not a priority now. If there are other relevant curial matters to discuss that needs admin input in some way, I'm still as open as ever for that, the curator need only PM me about them. But by the grace of coming from the curia doesn't make it an instant priority either.
    I would love to be a fly on the wall to know what is a priority.
    I wasn't suggesting that the Admin should implement anything and everything that comes from the Curia. However, One of the advantages of the citizenship is being a given a voice in regards to site administration to some extent above those of a regular member. The responses I have received was that the Curia doesn't actually have that voice. I would grant you in the past the Curia has done little to warrant that voice and how things are now perhaps still does. You could argue that the Curia is mired in trivialities because it lacks the guidance and support needed from the administration.

    Thanks for the quick response!

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    Augustus Lucifer's Avatar Life = Like a beanstalk
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    Default Re: UPDATES: Passed Proposals pending Hex Approval and Implementation

    Quote Originally Posted by Hader View Post
    I'd have to look more closely again, but didn't the history one add more forums than already exist? In any case, our overall goal is to not add more forums that absolutely necessary, something we're still trying to figure out in some places on the board. I don't discount the importance of historical discussion and that part of the community but I can't call that a priority right now either.
    I could be wrong about the Historical Community, but my reading of it has it adding 8 new forums in total, 2 additional forums to the main index. I assume the goal you mentioned is due to the same technical debt as it was several years ago, which is that the forum cache handles permissions entries poorly so new forums and usergroups add to our global page load time. However, as you likely know, a usergroup is much worse than a forum currently, since it adds an entry for each of the 1000+ forums we have, while a forum adds one for each of the 100+ usergroups. So adding one hosted mod forum, its developer area, and an associated developer usergroup is actually worse for the cache than this entire proposal.

    I'm not suggesting we stop adding those, just noting that it's all relative and we won't escape it without changing the underlying technology or our overall approach. So we should add to both in moderation, but there's no use in trying to cut off the spigot, we're stuck with the hosted mod additions lest we change a fundamental guarantee the site provides to modders, so minor additions elsewhere that could prove substantial to a subset of the community shouldn't be viewed as a significant detriment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hader View Post
    So for now I leave you with that. I'll definitely be relooking at some forum movements and whatnot, but they are not a priority now. If there are other relevant curial matters to discuss that needs admin input in some way, I'm still as open as ever for that, the curator need only PM me about them. But by the grace of coming from the curia doesn't make it an instant priority either.
    From what I can tell, and I don't know if this is the result of lost data or rollbacks or just executive decisionmaking, but nothing of substance from the Modding Community proposal has been implemented. The Workshops remain in separate sections, which was a cornerstone of the proposal since you can't have a cohesive modding community area if their primary workflow doesn't run through it. Nothing structurally from the proposal has been added or changed from what I can see.

    Truthfully I'd given up on it ever coming to fruition a while ago. I'm still curious as to why it's progressed the way it has though. The vote on it was not contested, nor was any formal opposition stated in the thread, and even GED publicly indicated a lack of opposition. I then further clarified that it would be an overall reduction to the main forum index, putting that concern to bed (though it really shouldn't be one, we're well past the point of no return as far as UI/UX goes for our main index). And as for the time it would take to put in place, I could easily do it in an afternoon with a Hex mandate and have indicated my willingness to do so in the past if lack of time is truly the issue.

    If Hex had issued a veto because it was discussed and deemed to be an idea that didn't seem to be beneficial to the forum, I'd tip my hat in response and say "much obliged for the consideration". Maybe modders were polled who don't view the Curia and they categorically hated it, that's a pretty good reason not to implement it. Or we have some site metric which shows it would disrupt more flow than it would fix. Or even just a fear of changing the status quo and a lack of confidence that the change would be for the better and could anger modders or decrease traffic, that's a completely reasonable stance to take even without metrics.

    We're currently two years in and I haven't heard any of those things offered as the reason for why nothing came of the effort, so some transparency on the reasoning would be appreciated if it's yours to offer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hader View Post
    As for the curia, maybe it can put its mind and matter to something worthwhile then? I don't waste my time reading the majority of what goes on here these days beyond medal proposals or begrudgingly being summoned for some specific reason, but from what I can tell this place is too busy worrying about constitutional technicalities and syntax and waving certain electronic members around instead of being proactive and doing things to actually help the site regardless of its ties to the curia. I stated before the example of me posting a thread for multiplayer forum feedback, posting a call for additional feedback here, and getting few to no non gaming staff citizens actually give feedback. It isn't a catch all example, but it illustrates my thoughts on this place enough for now. The curia can do so much more but instead does jack .
    As much as I enjoy a good ribbing of The Curia, and have partaken myself recently, we have to recognize that it's nothing more than the sum of its parts. We're all equally responsible for its problems. In my view, there are three main factors which have contributed to the gradual downward spiral the Curia has experienced:

    1) An acceptable status quo. As time goes on, fewer things on the site bear changing in a significant way because we've gotten used to how they work and they've organically grown out a certain way. A tweak here, a tweak there, but from bird's eye view it looks much as it did 5 years ago. Those things which do merit better alternatives also tend to be things which would require a substantial amount of backend work to put into place, and Squid is not a superhuman that's paid to work here so we necessarily have to avoid changes that amount to asking him (or me, or anyone else) to write code.

    2) The existence of Staff. I'll be the first to defend the need for a Staff to exist as it does. That doesn't change the fact that everything Staff has its hands in is necessarily taken from the Curia except for to provide advice that may or may not be heeded. As humans we seek the path of least resistance, so if I want to make a technical change I'm going to PM Squid and talk it through with him or post in the Cathedral, then if we agree to it and Hex had no objections I'd implement it. Passing through the Curia as a proxy serves no real purpose. Staff isn't just a 1:1 relationship with its domain though, it's also incidental backchannels for more efficient implementation of ideas.

    3) Inflow vs Outflow. I would argue that the Curia has sustained itself since 2007 on a gradual outflow of interested and influential members. There were enough people who were around when it was an important pillar of the site, and just enough things left within its sole purview for it to slowly fizzle down. But people move on with their lives, or they move on to Staff and focus their energies there, or they just become jaded and disinterested from a lack of achieved results. And as we added more awards and removed any need for Citizenship as a road to Staff, we effectively tore down the institution of Citizenship and its position as a goal by providing these alternate paths of recognition which were less convoluted and just as highly regarded.

    So what we see is what's left after all that. Every non-award thread is either a minor change to something or an attempt at reforming the Curia, with the latter predominating. Hell, even GED tried it to no avail (link will be private for most). That's because you can't reform the Curia without giving it sole purview over more of the site, something which has been resisted and dialed back over the course of years, and you can't expect it to be lively without giving the average member cause to view Citizenship as the distinctive honor and goal it once was. I don't know that either of those things should be pursued, but they're what would be required.

    Abolishing the Curia on the other hand would be easy, you wouldn't even need a torch, just two hands to pull what remains of the rug out from under it. Magistrates? Nope, Tribunal Staff with interns. Awards? Well we have Award Staff for managing them, and anyone interested can vote or propose in a public forum. CdeC? We already killed that for the sins of one of its incarnations. The Constitution remains, the Curator too, though nobody would care to run for it. The amendment and reform treadmill would carry on for a time, but lack of new blood would end that too. So there you have it, roadmap to a truly dead Curia, we're not that far off.

    And just to be clear, while this post is in response to you, Hader, I have nothing but respect for the job you've done as an Administrator and the work you've done for modders over the years. I'm not accusing you or anyone else of purposeful negligence or malicious intent with regards to the proposal or the downfall of the Curia, so if it comes off that way at any point it's the result of my imperfect command of language. I merely took your spirited elaboration in response to Pike as an opportunity to further inquire about one of my proposals and your completely valid dislike for the current state of the Curia, which I share, to grandstand for a moment on why I feel it came about.

    Plus it'd been awhile since I'd written a wall of text, so I figured...

    Last edited by Augustus Lucifer; May 04, 2016 at 09:45 AM.

  13. #13
    StealthFox's Avatar Consensus Achieved
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    Default Re: UPDATES: Passed Proposals pending Hex Approval and Implementation

    I'm not 100% convinced these proposals are going to make any huge changes to site activity and community. However, the argument about creation of new forums isn't valid. There are tons of empty and dead forums in various staff sections of the site that could be deleted if forum/server resource use was a real concern.
    Last edited by StealthFox; May 06, 2016 at 09:10 PM.

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