Expansion Theories

[AdmiralThrawn]

OK, so we know the first game will include the southern half of the Empire, the Silvanian Vampire Counts, the Dwarves, and the Orcs. They have also announced two additional games that can be played separately but can also extend the existing campaign map. Based on this we can make some educated guesses about what they will include:

Firstly, the two most important/popular races not currently featured in the game are Chaos and the Elves. Odds are CA will want to center an expansion around each one in order to boost sales. As a result, each expansion will likely expand the map in that direction and encompass the races in that area. Moreover, they will likely try to balance things so that there are a somewhat equal number of "good" and "bad" races in each in order to maintain the campaign's balance. Therefore, here are my predictions:

Expansion 1:

Playable:
Chaos
Kislev - They are the front line against Chaos, so they will certainly make an appearence
Empire - The northern half of the Empire will most likely make an appearance in this expansion

Non-Playable:
Norse Dwarves - There are some cool dwarves in Norsca, so they will most likely show up

Maybe:
Chaos Dwarves - They could fill in as the final race, but they may not be popular enough
Norse - These clans from Norsca would fill in the map nicely, but again they aren't too popular
Albion - This is a little-known part of the Warhammer world, but if one expansion goes north and one goes west, it would have to appear in one of them


Expansion 2:

Playable:
High Elves
Dark Elves - they will almost certainly appear, but the question is whether the map will include their homeland of Naggaroth (North America), or we'll just have some sort of "expidition" like in Call of Warhammer
Brettonia - they are really cool, and it would be hard to avoid them if the map is extended west
Skaven - they could pop up in any expansion, but putting them here would balance things out nicely

Non-Playable:
Vampire Counts - they will probably get the cursed city of Mousillon, but won't be playable unless you own the first game
Marienbourg - They could be either in this game or the first one, but either way I hope CA does them justice

Maybe:
Wood Elves - Athel Loren is in this area too, but I expect CA will want to keep it to 4 races per expansion
Beastmen - Their roster isn't too interesting so they may not be playable, but I hope they at least shop up as rebels
Lizardmen - Lustria is a bit too far south to shop up here, but it is always possible
Estalia, Tilia, and Araby - The other Human kingdoms aren't interesting enough to warrent their own expansion, but if the Skaven are showing up then Tilia may appear as well

Anyways, those are my thoughts, what do you guys think?

[Red Dox]

I think you list to many "who cares" factions, that do not even have full fledged support in the tabletop since...forever.

There are 16 races with playable armies and different units/playstyles in Warhammer

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The "good"
The Empire
Bretonnia
Dwarfs
High Elves
Lizardmen

The "bad"
Warriors of chaos
Demons of Chaos
Beasts of Chaos
Vampire Counts
Dark Elves
Greenskins
Skaven
Chaos Dwarfs (latest Forgeworld rules)

The more or less "neutral"
Ogre Kingdoms
Khemri Tomb Kings
Wood Elves

We know four of them are already in the first game. And we can assume that between 6 and 8 others will come with the two expansions.

My guess on coming playable factions would be
Expansion 1:
-Bretonia
-Skaven
-Chaos (probably Warriors & Daemons)

Expansion 2:
-High Elves
-Dark Elves
-Lizardmen
-maybe Ogre Kingdoms

I do not see Wood Elves as a expansion faction, because the tree huggers barley leave their forest. And if they run around the world attacking someone, they are not interested in aquiring new territory. Maybe they get an DLC for Multiplayer purpose. Next on the "doubt it" list are Beastmen & Daemons. I would love to see them as full fledged playable faction but I think the easy way would be a Chaos faction choosing some (but not all) units from the three books to form a greater single faction (maybe concentrating on one or two gods for start and the other as DLC later). If they do at least two Chaos books complete, we can bet all our money that Warriors will be the main choice with Archaon and Daemons take second place which leaves the Beastmen crying in the woods.
Tomb Kings are another doubtful contender, because Khemri is far away from the Empire and most other places worth fighting for. The Tomb Kings are like the Wood Elves mostly happy to be left alone in their domain, sometimes hunting for slaves or recovering riches but not the expand & conquer type. It would be a shame to not see their units in action but if some races are left out...
Last one with a track record to be ignored would be the Chaos Dwarfs. Again, I would love to see them in action but they still are the unwanted stepchild of the old world. Even Forgeworlds attempt to revive them (with a alternate story & timeline, not conflicting the "lets ignore them" lore official from GW) was not blessed with success, since GW first shut down Warhammer forge (because making more 30k Space Marines brings more money on the table) and now destroyed the complete world and I doubt that (even if all other get "rescued" somehow to the new planet) we will see them in Age of Sigmar again. Did someone say "Squats"?

Ideas like Albion, Norsca, Estalia, Tilea, Kislev, Border princes, Araby, Cathay, Nippon...they could get "patchwork" units formed from the Empire rooster and probably a "Dogs of War" mercenary DLC. But in the case of playable factions I highly doubt we will see much effort. They have probably enough to do *if* they want 10-12 playable armies from the regular armybooks working as intended without the "usual" GW balance issues. Rolling out "themed" armys like Kislev
http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Kislev
is probably a job for the modding scene later on. Similar to the tabletop, where the fan community keeps such exotic armies alive while GW just pumps out the "core armies". If someone does not know the primary adress for these or is simple interested in good fan-made armybooks, check these out
http://warhammerarmiesproject.blogspot.de/

-----Red Dox

[damien007]

1st expansion will be Elves (+ other stuff), 2nd Expansions will be Skaven (+ other stuff). Skaven are by far one of the most popular factions in tabletop, so they will most likely be headlining their own expansion.

Chaos are most likely going to be in the base game, expecting brettonia and wood elves as DLC, tomb kings would be call too but will probably be saved for DLC in a later expansion.

[Boyar'sNephew]

Tomb Kings are my boys, but I'll be (pleasantly) surprised if they make it into the larger game. But man, they would look sweet.

I'm thinking Chaos will be in the first game, but have been kept under wraps thus far. If not, they'll probably be in the first expansion, since they're so central. Hm. Or maybe not, if they're saved for the big bad as the final expansion, maybe some sort of End Times type thing. Interesting to speculate, but I think Red Dox is probably leaning in the right direction, as his list balances "bad" and "good" factions per expansion.

[paradamed]

I think you list to many "who cares" factions, that do not even have full fledged support in the tabletop since...forever.

Kislev is not a minor faction. They even have an official armybook.

I believe they will give us at least 4 factions (maybe even 5) per expansion (as in the first game) and there is also the possibility of other factions being added as DLC. There is even the possibility of Chaos appearing in the first release or as DLC for the first release since they already have been teased and CA members neither dismissed nor confirmed they will be in and also are keeping a lot of mistery about that fact.

[Red Dox]

Kislev had never a "traditional" armybook (never did Chaos Dwarfs but they got at least every now and then another semi official armylist like Ravening Hordes or Tamurkhan). Kislevgot a tiny booklet in UK afaik (6th Edition) but in germany not even that. There we got the same information printed in the White Dwarf and later bundled in the Chronicles compilation. Today you can find the whole thing floating still around as .pdf but things like this, where one shots. From fans at GW for fans worldwide in a time where they to some regard still cared about a fanbase. With limited model support to make a few bucks on the way. And of course, as a one shot fan present it got never updated or renewed in the following two editions and 10 years.
If you are in the hobby long enough to remember Kislev, you also remember the Goblin themed army lists (WD), Dogs of War (WD) or my favourite "slap you in the face" actual book: Storm of Chaos, with several themed armies that also got some models like Belakor, Valten (3 models!) or the Goblin Hewer. But they got also forgotten fast and only exist as fan projects in the 8th edition (and probably died with the AoS reset for the "new is always better" system).

I agree that Kislev is no minor faction on the world map or lore wise, but this also counts for Tilea, Estalia & Border princes. Or the distant Ogre Kingdoms, blasted land Chaos dwarf holds and Nehekhara (which at least got full armybooks in the 8th). Araby, Cathay, Nippon were also "major players" on the world stage that never get real attention. Did you follow the horrible Endtimes? Kislev was just plain overrun from Chaos in less words then this post. Same goes for Tilea, Estalia & Border princes which somehow huge Skaven armies overrun these three kingdoms over night, simultaneously. And the Skaven horde was after that still strong enough to wipe Lustria and Naggarond from the map (literally) devestate some places in the Empire (like destroying Nuln) and miraculously could overrun every dwarf hold in less time then I need to finish this text (stupid new age dwarfs. In the old times they hold their fortresses for centuries before they got thrown out). If Games Workshop decides that entire kingdoms like Kislev are not worth more then a twitter news for their destruction, how can we expect that they are treated as "major factions"? How could someone expect that in a licensed game for a "dead" system, such factions will get more attention then armies who got a 8th edition armybook and models in the last 5 years?

I stand by my comment that Kislev, who got a 5 minute spotlight in 2003, by all regards will be counted as "minor" faction. Maybe not even DLC worthy. I can see the modding community pick up the work here but I think even they will give the "main" armies, the 16 with actual army books and rules alive in the 8th edition, priority. Of coure in the long term, with CA done with all expansions and DLC and the modders busting their asses for years, I really hope we have not only all 16 main armies present and some of their themed sub-factions (like dwarf Slayer cult, pure nightgoblin army, etc) but also some of the "GW does not give a " factions on the world map. Kislev, Nippon, Araby...

-----Red Dox

[Death_Sheep]

I do have to wonder though if Sea Battles will be in the later expansions. High Elves, Dark Elves, Chaos, Dwarves, hell Orks as well have some presence on the sea.

[BalrogOfMorgoth]

As we know, CA said the exp will also be stand-alone, that means each expensions need 3-4 factions

First game : The western old world
Faction :
Empire, Dwarfs, Vampire Counts and Greenskins
Skaven Day one DLC
Chaos culture pack : Beastmen and Warriors of Chaos ( As a Norscan tribe )
Bretonnia Free-LC
Dogs of War DLC
A lot of small DLC, adding lords, others 'in'-faction ( like a goblin tribe for the greenskins, Middenland, Clan Moulder )

First Exp : The West ( Elven Donuts Island and the eastern coast of both Lustria and Nagaroth )
Faction :
High elves, Dark Elves, Lizardmen, Skagga ( a small norscan colony )
If you own the first game, the wood elves become playable
Small DLC adding lords and objects, maybe a DLC adding an Estalian expedition or the Southern undead

Second Expension : The East ( include Badlands, Land of the Dead and the Dark lands )
Faction : Greenskins, Ogre kingdoms, Tomb Kings and the Chaos Dwarfs
If you own the first game, it adds units for the greenskins and add a lot of new mercenaries ( especially Ogre )
DLC about lords and objects as well

A man can dream

[HigoChumbo]

My personal bet:

Expansion 1:

• Bretonnia
• Wood Elves
• Skaven
• Maybe Ogre Kingdoms

Expansion 2:

• High Elves
• Dark Elves
• Chaos
• Maybe Lizardmen

The thing is, keep in mind that they said each game will have its own campaign map which you will be able to combine if you own all games, BUT since it seems that each map is also completelly standalone, I imagine factions have to be focused in a certain area (that's why I'm not sure about stuff like Kislev and the Ogre kingdoms being in the same expansion as Bretonnia and the Wood Elves.

[econ21]

My personal bet:

Expansion 1:

• Bretonnia
• Wood Elves
• Skaven
• Maybe Ogre Kingdoms

Expansion 2:

• High Elves
• Dark Elves
• Chaos
• Maybe Lizardmen

.

I largely agree with that, but given the importance of Chaos, I suspect they will either be a surprise fifth faction in the first game or come out in expansion 1.

I'd also say Lizardmen are definites with the elves - both will require "Empire TW" type continents maps, and Lizardmen could perhaps draw on some of the work CA did with the Aztecs in MTW2.

[GatoVolador]

Chaos has all the potential of being pre-order/day one dlc. It's just way to important to leave out, even if you could argue that it could be left for the last game as the final antagonist. They can also chop chaos into undivided, the 4 mayor gods, norsca, beastment, etc, for the absolute cash cow...

The bit about the expansions being standalone limit the selection, because they have to be geografically close, and offer factions that are not present in the same areas that have been already released. That being said I would say the expansions would be (not neceseraly in this order):
Expansion 1:
high elves, dark elves, lizardmen, maybe pestilens skavens or norse/demons (?)
Expansion 2:
Bretonnia, skavens, wood elves, maybe tomb kings/lizardmen, depending how far south they go.

I would expect beastmen and night goblins (of whom we haven't seen a single unit so far in any of the greenskins trailers/teasers) to be dlc either for the first game or the bretonia expansion. I would expect middenheim/marienburg unit packs for the first game.
I have no idea how to fit ogre kingdoms in this whole geographical mess.
I wouldn't expect tilea/estalia or kislev (although I would love to see them russians).

Speculations...

[Boyar'sNephew]

Perhaps Chaos Armies based on their affiliation, one per expansion? Tzeentch seems like a strong candidate for the first, since it's the only one we've seen, sort of. Of course, three expansions and four gods makes the math a little difficult to work out with this theory, unless Slaneesh is getting screwed again... so to speak.

HigoChumbo's geographic distribution makes sense, but a Chaos excursion could easily enough be managed for each, with some backstory.

[paradamed]

Kislev had never a "traditional" armybook (never did Chaos Dwarfs but they got at least every now and then another semi official armylist like Ravening Hordes or Tamurkhan). Kislevgot a tiny booklet in UK afaik (6th Edition) but in germany not even that. There we got the same information printed in the White Dwarf and later bundled in the Chronicles compilation. Today you can find the whole thing floating still around as .pdf but things like this, where one shots. From fans at GW for fans worldwide in a time where they to some regard still cared about a fanbase. With limited model support to make a few bucks on the way. And of course, as a one shot fan present it got never updated or renewed in the following two editions and 10 years.
If you are in the hobby long enough to remember Kislev, you also remember the Goblin themed army lists (WD), Dogs of War (WD) or my favourite "slap you in the face" actual book: Storm of Chaos, with several themed armies that also got some models like Belakor, Valten (3 models!) or the Goblin Hewer. But they got also forgotten fast and only exist as fan projects in the 8th edition (and probably died with the AoS reset for the "new is always better" system).

I agree that Kislev is no minor faction on the world map or lore wise, but this also counts for Tilea, Estalia & Border princes. Or the distant Ogre Kingdoms, blasted land Chaos dwarf holds and Nehekhara (which at least got full armybooks in the 8th). Araby, Cathay, Nippon were also "major players" on the world stage that never get real attention. Did you follow the horrible Endtimes? Kislev was just plain overrun from Chaos in less words then this post. Same goes for Tilea, Estalia & Border princes which somehow huge Skaven armies overrun these three kingdoms over night, simultaneously. And the Skaven horde was after that still strong enough to wipe Lustria and Naggarond from the map (literally) devestate some places in the Empire (like destroying Nuln) and miraculously could overrun every dwarf hold in less time then I need to finish this text (stupid new age dwarfs. In the old times they hold their fortresses for centuries before they got thrown out). If Games Workshop decides that entire kingdoms like Kislev are not worth more then a twitter news for their destruction, how can we expect that they are treated as "major factions"? How could someone expect that in a licensed game for a "dead" system, such factions will get more attention then armies who got a 8th edition armybook and models in the last 5 years?

I stand by my comment that Kislev, who got a 5 minute spotlight in 2003, by all regards will be counted as "minor" faction. Maybe not even DLC worthy. I can see the modding community pick up the work here but I think even they will give the "main" armies, the 16 with actual army books and rules alive in the 8th edition, priority. Of coure in the long term, with CA done with all expansions and DLC and the modders busting their asses for years, I really hope we have not only all 16 main armies present and some of their themed sub-factions (like dwarf Slayer cult, pure nightgoblin army, etc) but also some of the "GW does not give a " factions on the world map. Kislev, Nippon, Araby...

-----Red Dox

Ok, I see your point.

I think that even if Kislev is not one of the factions at release for the expansions they do deserve a shot as a DLC faction. CA pretty much released (unlocked) new factions in Rome 2 as DLC so maybe the same can be and should be done in the warhammer game.

Since this game pretty much has so few factions compared to the last titles CA released they have the obligation to go deep in the warhammer universe. I do agree with you that other factions should have a priority but CA has the manpower to release all of them and the investment will be worth it for sure!
I intend to buy each and every single DLC as long as it is meaningful DLC and not clone units with a minor detail and I believe all fans have the same intentions.

[Red Dox]

Since this game pretty much has so few factions compared to the last titles CA released they have the obligation to go deep in the warhammer universe.

And here we have a usualy misunderstood point.

In every Total War game before, you had just one race. Humans. And then different factions between the humans.
In this game you got four different races. The Empire is divided in different regions and and often fight against each other. Orc tribes are usualy fighting each other all the time if no Waaagh unites them. Even then, the Waaagh has to conquer most tribes in the way that do not come on their own to join up. Vampires are also fighting for power and leadership with their own kin. Even the dwarfs have different kings in their citys that do take grudges from other dwarfs as seriously as with any other race. Who says the four races will not get their own factions? Is anyone really thinking Grimgor will not smash other greenskins first before he even sees another race to kill? There is so much we do not know about the game yet...

-----Red Dox

[paradamed]

And here we have a usualy misunderstood point.

In every Total War game before, you had just one race. Humans. And then different factions between the humans.
In this game you got four different races. The Empire is divided in different regions and and often fight against each other. Orc tribes are usualy fighting each other all the time if no Waaagh unites them. Even then, the Waaagh has to conquer most tribes in the way that do not come on their own to join up. Vampires are also fighting for power and leadership with their own kin. Even the dwarfs have different kings in their citys that do take grudges from other dwarfs as seriously as with any other race. Who says the four races will not get their own factions? Is anyone really thinking Grimgor will not smash other greenskins first before he even sees another race to kill? There is so much we do not know about the game yet...

-----Red Dox

No sir, I will not agree with this point.

Most of the resources are shared by all factions. It doesnt matter which race it is. Yes, they have some unique animations but most of those units will share the same animation and skeletons in some cases with slight changes.

If you follow the mod scene you can pretty much see that some small modding teams have developped "similar" fantasy mods for Medieval 2 TW and RTW (TATW, Hyrule TW, Rage of Dark Gods, LOTR TW) and managed to deliver a fantastic job.

CA having a whole professional team have all the resource to develope each and every single faction in the warhammer universe. Not to mention, they pretty much have been developing this game for at least 2 years.

Yes, there will be different races and all but most of the material is shared by all factions. For example, the Sylvanian horses will probably use the same skeleton as the Empire horses, the empire infantry and Sylvania infantry will share the same skeletons and animations being different only by different models and textures and so on.

They are not building another engine for this game but are only making small changes to the current engine. There is nothing groundbreaking that will consume all their resources so they have all the power to deliver a great game.

No, I cannot agree with you. No CA cannot use this as an excuse to deliver a poorly executed product.

[Tafatt]

Not sure if intentionally ignoring what is written, or if you have such a strong narrative in your own head you're somehow blind to reality.

[DavidtheDuke]

I do think Chaos and that stuff is going to be done next, with something crazy maybe with the end times at the very end, with all the races and many factions all jumping into a massive campaign pile.

No, I cannot agree with you. No CA cannot use this as an excuse to deliver a poorly executed product.

Yeah, the only excuse on their SIXTH (does Attila really count as another TW3 game? it feels like FOTS for Rome 2 more than a true independent game) TW3 game at this point is they're not up to the task really. My prediction is it's going to suck at first but since they have two expansions they'll figure out how to really nail it down and get the wiggly parts more under control by then (more or less, I doubt it'll ever feel *really* polished). I also think it's possible the dev team this time is more enthusiastic, at least Simon Mann is, he was more excited than Angry Joe at that interview a bit back.

[Red Dox]

Yes, there will be different races and all but most of the material is shared by all factions. For example, the Sylvanian horses will probably use the same skeleton as the Empire horses, the empire infantry and Sylvania infantry will share the same skeletons and animations being different only by different models and textures and so on.

I just take a look to the Blackfire pass trailer. So the goblin wolf and spider rider are shared with...mmhh. oh yeah the cahso dwarfs we probabyl never see use wolf riders. And the Arachnarok and Wyvern use the same skeleton as...mmmh again. Same will go for the squigs if they come. And that is just the green side of life. If we wander to the vampires besides skeletons and zombies there are enough monstrosities who will have their own unique signature not used by Tomb kings, humans or someone else.

Of course there are *some* similarities, but there are enough different units that do not share their animition skeletons. Hence for animate that things would be more costly and time consuming. And when you say things like

CA having a whole professional team have all the resource to develope each and every single faction in the warhammer universe. Not to mention, they pretty much have been developing this game for at least 2 years.

think about it. Four full armybooks --> give or take three years work.
There are 16 armybooks and seen in several topics, people already cry for all the other stuff that does not even have a armybook or lots of lore too. Look at the first post here, Thrawn wished for Albion, Kislev and Norse dwarfs. Wishful thinking but realistic view on what can be done and what should be done in the first place?
Kislev war bears in action would be really cool but no other armybook is using bears. And Kislev had not an real armybook like forever. And now it seem so simple to take the human skeleton and horse skeleton from the finished empire (where people still rambling about the generic look, clone troopers and lack of command units as shown so far) and design Kislev, Estalia & Tilea forces over the next week because the finished empire skeletons & animations make the job easy?
What is with the the different magic lores besides the simple skin change? The other game mechanics like the prayers from the bretons? The new models and animations like the bear riders?

We can agree to disagree but I do not see the point in repeating "it is sooo easy, modders did it over the last 6 years in medival 2 for call of warhammer....wait, 6 years? Ah, they were not paid proffesionals. Does not count." Yeah, it kinda does count because they had a slightly different engine and probably no worries about air units, magic, kill animations or bringing up the terrain of Warhammer. You got four armybooks for the start. As my point was, we do not know if these four races will or will not contain there own subfactions like Vampire bloodlines, halfling army of the mootlands or different greenskin playstsyles (goblin only, savage army, Grimgors hard boyz). So if you want to blame CA for being lazy, at least wait until we know for sure


-----Red Dox

[joedreck]

I would be happy with one chaos faction, but possible to Split. So you can follow the 4 gods or choice Any of them. As more you follow one god, you get from him more Bad deamons, monsters.
So if you follow for example all 4 gods, you get Basic chaos troops and Basic deamons. If you follow khrone, so you get the bigest and most ugly one, but other chaos subfactions who like nurgle or slaanesh will hate you.

[Påsan]

I wonder who will be the Lord character for the high elves who will show up in one of the two expansion games. Preferably it will be both Tyrion and Teclis.