Chinese millitairy, what kind of elite forces did they field?

**Lord Oda Nobunaga** · August 03, 2015, 07:41 AM

Originally Posted by Inhuman One

Maybe I should just go with a wandering sellsword or such as a Chinese character? Maybe someone who has had different roles during the three kingdoms period or such, seems not uncommon for people to have fought on more than one side during that. Could maybe have switched due to matters of concious to add honour to the character.

At least I know a little bit about that period since it seems quite popular due to romance of the three kingdoms. The movie Red Cliff also helped to visualise it, even though the ability of commanders is clearly exaggerated. Great movie still.
I've also played one of the dynasty warrior games, which does seem to cover the events. Not much accuracy there I am sure, but I do assume that at least the basic events happened so at least it gives an idea of the progression of the war.

There were refugees everywhere during the Three Kingdoms. The ones that fled to Wu ended up serving in the military or on the lands of a rich or noble family. Some fled with Liu Bei (for some reason) and either ended up in the military or became merchants in Shu Han or served on the lands of rich nobles.

Those that stayed up north were given lands by Cao Cao in exchange for military service. As the war up north had destroyed so much of the area and left so much deserted land Cao Cao organized it into agro-military colonies. Basically Cao Cao cut out the nobility and confiscated lands that were not being used creating settlements where soldiers and their families could live. The soldiers trained and guarded the territory while their families farmed, their children could then serve as soldiers as well (or some other form of tax). This provided a constant stream of soldiers which had the required training to be put into service (I mean land, food and employment is a pretty good deal). This system stopped when Jin usurped Wei and instead they began partitioning the land amongst the nobility and the rich landed elite. The Ming also tried this early on but ended the system for reason that are unclear to me.

If you want to do a story you might try the Ming dynasty. Jinyiwei could be an interesting protagonist being in charge of arrests, torture, some fighting and guarding as well. Would make for an interesting and well rounded character.
Now every time I think of Ming I get this (Warning: really violent) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiS0ABHCkao

**hellheaven1987** · August 03, 2015, 08:24 AM

Originally Posted by Dick Cheney.

http://gbtimes.com/life/jinyiwei-chi...-secret-police

Nope, that is like saying CIA is elite military unit; we do know that Ming had Guard unit for a very short time.

**Dick Cheney.** · August 03, 2015, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by hellheaven1987

Nope, that is like saying CIA is elite military unit; we do know that Ming had Guard unit for a very short time.

That's like saying the people that perform black ops are just average joes.

You might have an argument that the role of the Jinyiwei (like the praetorian guard) was more political than military, but I strongly disagree that they didn't perform elite military functions - such as guarding the emperor.

**Inhuman One** · August 04, 2015, 08:39 AM

Perhaps I'd need something with a more active role in combat then.
Its for a story that has some "deadliest warrior" influences in which he'd encounter warriors of other periods so being convincing against such odds is a factor too. I'd just like to find a nice chinese representation as well here since with China being so big and ancient, it would be weird to not have that there. And I do want to have representatives from all over the world. Can't just toss in a Samurai and nothing else from Asia.

**Condottiere 40K** · August 04, 2015, 09:22 AM

14191
I always had the impression of mass.

**Inhuman One** · August 04, 2015, 02:06 PM

Indeed, big blobs, aside from the occasional commander or such sending people flying with magical fighting powers.

Yeah.. I think I'll stick to the mercenary approach. That way I can see about featuring some nice chinese weaponry to set up a nice combination of arms which might allow for some good variety compared to other combatants I'll be taking from elsewhere. And three kingdoms period seems best due to general familiarity with these wars and it of course being a time of turmoil thats suitable for mercenaries.

Which means I'd need a nice set of weapons for the character that would allow some versatility without going too crazy. I'm thinking about maybe a spear,shield, sword and a bow or cross bow, but that might be rather standard. I do get the impression that they where quite skilled with spears in the far east, very often eastern soldiers are portrayed using spears without a shield, while armies of other parts of the world seem pretty much always depicted using spears with a shield.

**Hresvelgr** · August 05, 2015, 01:24 PM

The huge blobs of peasant masses are a crude western stereotype, but in any case one of the reasons there isn't any clear Chinese equivalent to famous warrior elite groups of times past like knights or samurai and so on so forth is that China, at least after a certain point, lacked a sharply-defined military aristocracy that was unique from the rest of society in their access to stuff like armor, good weapons, and the right to wage war. It would be more fair to compare Ancient China to Ancient Rome, wherein at a relatively early point they instituted a more professional, or at least regular, military force instead of relying on the upper-class to do all the fighting supported by their lowborn servants. In many dynasties, they would have a standing army and/or a militia wherein people from military families would be recruited (by conscription or obligation, same thing really) so in a sense the military was a hereditary profession, at least for some people. Officers however would be people, largely aristocrats who'd have the education necessary for this, who had passed the bureacratic exams necessary and therefore be at least theoretically promoted/assigned by merit. Being aristocrats, officers would also generally have the best equipment and training so to some extent the wuxia trope of generals being the top warriors has at least a little basis in history.

All that said, there would still be some military units known for being more prestigious and "elite" than the rest of the army, namely Imperial Guard units which I'm sure every dynasty had and seems to be the easiest to find depictions of in art. There were also other examples that weren't relegated to guarding the emperor, such as the elite army of Qi Jiguang that fought off Japanese pirates, and I think I also heard of groups of elite soldiers in Coxinga's army. Basically, there were specific armies or units that would be well-trained and thus "elite", but unlike some other epochs of history they would persist for hundreds of years riding off on the coattails of that one achievement they had eons back despite falling out of practice and into obsolescence. Besides that, there was a tendency for the officer-class, whether they be qualified aristocrats or experienced soldiers who've done the necessary amount of badassery to be promoted (in the Qin Dynasty and I think even later on promotions were handed out based on the number of severed enemy heads one brought back to their commander) to be regarded as more "elite" soldiers going by what I think you're definition of elite to mean. There were also cases in I think the Warring States period (don't think it persisted much longer than that) where condemned prisoners would be used as shock troopers, or just plain shock, almost like berserkers, but I definitely don't think that's the kind of elite you're going for.

As far as weapons go, I'm going to assume that your character here is perhaps some sort of officer, maybe a serving officer of the imperial guard or perhaps one that's retired from the standing army and is acting a bit more mercenary. In any case, so far as I know (I don't claim to be an expert on ancient China, merely someone whose read a lot of articles by actual experts) someone like that would have plenty of training with a sword, spear, and bow. Crossbow is definitely more of a peasant soldier weapon, not something a more refined gentleman would have or need, really. Shields, while more common in Japan, weren't quite that widespread either and I don't think it'd be carried by the character you're going for. The specifics of the swords and armor you're looking at also depend greatly on the time period and dynasty you're going for, you're looking at over 2,000 years of history after all.

**Condottiere 40K** · August 05, 2015, 03:47 PM

Aside from the early headhunting aspect, I get the impression from a number of Chinese dramas that armies were created, or assembled from existing units, on an ad hoc basis, cohesion being more dependant on heroic commanders and indomitable fighters.
24483

**Lord Oda Nobunaga** · August 06, 2015, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by Condottiere 40K

209
Shaolin Monks are clearly elite, though at times at odds with the regime(s)

The practitioners of Wudang and especially Shaolin martial art styles were very limited in a military role. While we do have anecdotes of a group of Shaolin Buddhist monks or Taoist monks that chose to aid the local lord or some army militarily the amount of cases seem very limited. Most of them come from time periods when farming, soldiering, banditry and spiritual petitioning were not easily defined as distinct social groups. These were usually times of chaos and extreme disorder and violence, most of the anecdotes I have managed to find come from after the fall of Han and up to the rise of Tang where there were multiple warlord states vying for control of a single area. Due to this life was often hectic for the common person and one might be forced to become a hermit in some temple and then a soldier or a bandit the next. But normally the difference between peasants, soldiers, criminals and priests was very much defined (unless the warrior caste had more or less dissolved as it tended to happen when commoners were no longer given land in exchange for a life time of martial servitude and priests were not at all allowed to take up arms or interact within the rest of society as a regular person might). In Japan however this was not so much the case, regions and temples were not easy to control so that monks acted like bandits and common people that took up wives and had clans or even took up arms to further their own interests. The result being more or less the "Sohei" that one finds in the form of the Ikko Ikki monks of the Pureland Sect and many other groups and sects that operated similarly throughout various times in Japanese history.

Originally Posted by Inhuman One

Perhaps I'd need something with a more active role in combat then.
Its for a story that has some "deadliest warrior" influences in which he'd encounter warriors of other periods so being convincing against such odds is a factor too. I'd just like to find a nice chinese representation as well here since with China being so big and ancient, it would be weird to not have that there. And I do want to have representatives from all over the world. Can't just toss in a Samurai and nothing else from Asia.

Honestly it really depends on the time period as different types of warfare were more prevalent at various times. Starting around the Three Kingdoms onwards the main types of soldiers might be classified in terms of equipment. There were lighter armed troops usually peasants armed with a shorter spear and a long shield, heavier troops armed with longer pikes (but sort of like a long Bill or hatchet on the side) http://s1054.photobucket.com/user/th...443c4.jpg.html
the spears came in many forms though and others included a sort of trident and even ones with a sort of axe head on both sides and the spear tip at the end, usually these soldiers did not have shields but it depends on many factors. Most troops were armed with swords anyway as a secondary weapon.
Then we have light infantry armed only with smaller shields and swords, other variants armed with large shields, lots of armour and big swords.
There would also be missile infantry armed with javelins, recurve bows and crossbows. I suppose the crossbow might be seen more as a weapon for the masses but in truth crossbows were highly effective in power and rate of fire, again though the crossbow depends on the time period as by the Ming dynasty I have not heard mention of them being used except by the peoples of the south west frontier along the mountains of Tibet and Burma. Previously I had mentioned troops in Yuan Shao's army armed with crossbows and long shields almost like an Italian Pavise Crossbowman, the shield seems to have been optional or only for some units.
Your average cavalry man might be armed with bows and have armour of varying types depending on their cavalry role. The usual equipment of cavalry troops being spears, bows and swords. This is only really scratching the surface to be honest and this says nothing about any of these people's status within society or training.

Originally Posted by Condottiere 40K

Aside from the early headhunting aspect, I get the impression from a number of Chinese dramas that armies were created, or assembled from existing units, on an ad hoc basis, cohesion being more dependant on heroic commanders and indomitable fighters.
24483

That might be because tv dramas are the modern adaptations of the old Romances and heroic/lyrical poetry/epics. The skill of a lot of the generals in the Sanguo Yanyi (Romance of the Three Kingdoms) is highly exaggerated. The amount of epic one on one duels don't seem to be referenced all that much in the histories, there are a few but no where near as descriptive or as many as in the Sanguo Yanyi. Dramas being dramas tend to exaggerate even more in any case
Take this scene in Red Cliff https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4qbQCJ9QKs
the nonsense formation used by the heroes against the cavalry is just insane. To coordinate troops in this way is probably damn near impossible and an attacking army wouldn't be stupid enough to fall for this trick.

**Yayattasa** · August 09, 2015, 06:21 PM

A great story to be read if you want to get a grasp of the military during the Song is Water Margin (also knowns as Liangshan Braves, All Men are Brothers, etc.). Look out for Liu Tang ("Red Haired Demon") and Yang Zhi ("Blue Faced Beast") (the guy in my avatar), it takes some time for them to appear. Liu Tang is basically a bandit and smuggler. Yang Zhi is highly regarded as an officer, so he is first tasked with escorting a convoy with imperial tribute, and after some troubles and imprisonment, he is tasked with escorting a convoy with gifts to the Imperial Tutor.
Lin Chong ("Panther Head") is also a good example. He is part of the Imperial Guard, being its martial instructor, a good occupation for a character in your story I guess.
Every character has a background and introduction, and the weapon sets are really diverse.
The story is really cool, but english translations are somewhat hard to come by.

There are some TV series and films aswell, will try to find some clips about it.

Here's the fight between Yang Zhi and Lin Chong.

**yevon** · August 10, 2015, 10:03 PM

Shaolin Monks are clearly elite, though at times at odds with the regime(s)

I think the idea " Shaolin Monks are elite force" almost because everyone be affected too much by Jin Yong and his series wuxia novels.

If we carefully read about Shaolin Temple in history, we will see they have the history of failure when involed into any military movement.

During the history, Shaolin fighted against bandit (14th century),Li Zicheng rebellion ( 17th century), Qing Army ( 17th century), Shi Yousan's force ( 1928). They be defeated in every war against every enemy.

Really, several Chinese famous generals are from Shaolin temple ( Qi Jiguang is one among them) , but Shaolin Monk themselve is terrible in military movement.

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military tactics and equipments change through history. We can't see a famous elite force as example of a nation's military history. But I think every nations will have something which not change through history.

With Chinese, I think they are the conscription army with the lagre number in every battle ( although they still have regular and elite units). That is why their army usually be equipped follow two style:

- the soldier who use a spear to fight ( don't have shield)
- the soldier who use crossbow to fight. Because crossbower not cost too much time to training ( compare with archer), Chinese army have very many crossbower. I remember Cao Cao and his army use many crossbowers in his battles. Until Song dynasty ( 11th-13th century), they Chinese even founded a Weapon Office which only focus into research/upgrade/ mass product crossbows. They have very many styles of crossbows. And that is why Chinese is one among several nations who researched and used firearms early - to replace crossbow on battlefield.

Really, I don't know why Chinese's history drama and film only show about archer units. They almost don't made about crossbower units in films. May be that is because archer is cooler than crossbower?

**Condottiere 40K** · August 11, 2015, 01:30 AM

22038
This anti-crossbowism seems to prevail in Europe as well, except in Switzerland, compared to the heroic longbow yeoman; then you have the horse archers of the steppes and the Middle East. There is Crusaders versus Arabs, where the crossbow becomes heroic.

Training is measured in weeks or months, compared to the years you need for archery, basically point and click.

**Inhuman One** · August 11, 2015, 03:04 AM

The movie Hero does show a huge amount of crossbowmen though with people flying around dodging and deflecting all those arrows in their loose robes the realism ends there. But its still a very beautifull and artistic movie despite that.

The crossbows here are very big though and the soldiers use their feet to hold them and a second soldier loads it. Since its a chinese movie I assume this is accurate but I remember finding it quite a curious thing when I saw it for the first time.