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Thread: Discussion about the ents, spiders and wolves crashes.

  1. #141

    Default Re: We need your help in collecting data about the ents, spiders and wolves crashes! please read the first post of this thread before replying

    Alright. Just did a clean install. Vanilla Tatw doesnt crash. Can battle with full stacks of ents vs full stack spiders. Tested multiple times, no problem. With MOS installed, just 1 spider crashes the game, but a full stack of ents vs full stack Balrog is no problem. Whats with these spiders?! Are they evil??

  2. #142

    Default Re: We need your help in collecting data about the ents, spiders and wolves crashes! please read the first post of this thread before replying

    How do I edit posts? Wanted to add an edit to my last post.
    I tried MOS WITHOUT the all inclusive patch, and no crashes.... weird.

  3. #143
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    Default Re: We need your help in collecting data about the ents, spiders and wolves crashes! please read the first post of this thread before replying

    No idea what happened there. These crashes are annoyingly unpredictable though.

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  4. #144

    Default Re: We need your help in collecting data about the ents, spiders and wolves crashes! please read the first post of this thread before replying

    Guess the only "failsafe" solution at the moment is to remove the spiders then :/ Too bad, really liked 'em!

  5. #145
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    Default Re: We need your help in collecting data about the ents, spiders and wolves crashes! please read the first post of this thread before replying

    Quote Originally Posted by Westrum View Post
    Alright. Just did a clean install. Vanilla Tatw doesnt crash. Can battle with full stacks of ents vs full stack spiders. Tested multiple times, no problem. With MOS installed, just 1 spider crashes the game, but a full stack of ents vs full stack Balrog is no problem. Whats with these spiders?! Are they evil??
    Seems that the MOS team messed something up. The coding for all these mounts needs to be specific or random crashes can occur, even in vanilla TATW (prior to 2.0) there were many very small bugs I found in the code for all the vanilla TATW mounts that caused "random" crashes only they weren't random. It was happening whenever even one of the mounts were set on fire or something specific but not very noticeable like that. If it is consistently happening in MOS and not happening in vanilla it doesn't sound random to me.
    Last edited by alreadyded; June 06, 2016 at 02:28 PM.

  6. #146

    Default Re: We need your help in collecting data about the ents, spiders and wolves crashes! please read the first post of this thread before replying

    Been playing DaC the last couple of days now, not a single crash. Seems like MOS dont like my hardware :/

  7. #147
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    Default Re: We need your help in collecting data about the ents, spiders and wolves crashes! please read the first post of this thread before replying

    Quote Originally Posted by alreadyded View Post
    Seems that the MOS team messed something up. The coding for all these mounts needs to be specific or random crashes can occur, even in vanilla TATW (prior to 2.0) there were many very small bugs I found in the code for all the vanilla TATW mounts that caused "random" crashes only they weren't random. It was happening whenever even one of the mounts were set on fire or something specific but not very noticeable like that. If it is consistently happening in MOS and not happening in vanilla it doesn't sound random to me.
    Can you be slightly more specific? What do the mounts need to be labeled as?
    I don't have any crashes, otherwise I could probably have tested it myself, but for the people who have crashes, this might be vital info.

    These are the export_descr_unit entries for spiders and wolves:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    type Black Spiders Adult
    dictionary Black_Spiders_Adult ; Used Spiders
    category cavalry
    class heavy
    voice_type Heavy
    banner faction main_cavalry
    banner holy crusade_cavalry
    soldier Elephant_Crew3, 32, 32, 1
    mount black_spidersA
    mount_effect horse +4, camel +2
    attributes hide_improved_forest, hardy, can_withdraw, frighten_foot, frighten_mounted, mercenary_unit, spider_attr, spider_black_attr
    move_speed_mod 1.1
    formation 1.6, 1.6, 2.8, 2.8, 4, horde
    stat_health 1, 3
    stat_pri no
    stat_pri_attr no
    stat_sec 8, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, piercing, none, 25, 1
    stat_sec_attr no
    stat_pri_armour 12, 4, 4, flesh
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat 1
    stat_ground 3, 3, 3, 3
    stat_mental 15, disciplined, highly_trained
    stat_charge_dist 80
    stat_fire_delay 0
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 1, 1250, 350, 100, 400, 1250, 6, 300
    armour_ug_levels 2
    armour_ug_models Elephant_Crew3
    ownership slave, england
    era 0 slave, england
    era 1 slave, england
    era 2 slave, england
    recruit_priority_offset 15

    type WolfPack
    dictionary WolfPack ; WolfPack
    category cavalry
    class heavy
    voice_type Heavy
    banner faction main_cavalry
    soldier Elephant_Crew3, 30, 30, 1
    mount mount wolf
    mount_effect horse +4, camel +2
    attributes sea_faring, can_withdraw, no_custom,
    formation 0.5, 0.5, 2.3, 3.8, 1.2, horde,
    stat_health 2, 1
    stat_pri 13, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1
    ;stat_pri_ex 0, 0, 0
    stat_pri_attr ap
    stat_sec 8, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1
    ;stat_sec_ex 0, 0, 0
    stat_sec_attr ap
    stat_pri_armour 0, 3, 0, flesh
    ;stat_armour_ex 5, 0, 0, 0, 7, 0, 0, metal
    stat_sec_armour 10, 4, flesh
    stat_heat 1
    stat_ground 0, 1, -6, -1
    stat_mental 10, normal, trained
    stat_charge_dist 35
    stat_fire_delay 0
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 1, 270, 100, 65, 50, 270, 4, 60
    armour_ug_levels 0,
    armour_ug_models Elephant_Crew3
    ownership hre, portugal, slave
    era 0 hre, portugal, slave
    era 1 hre, portugal, slave
    era 2 hre, portugal,


    Do you (or does anyone else) notice anything that is wrong? Or are the bugs in other files? Any help would be greatly appreciated

  8. #148

    Default Re: We need your help in collecting data about the ents, spiders and wolves crashes! please read the first post of this thread before replying

    Quote Originally Posted by Greymane View Post
    These are the export_descr_unit entries for spiders and wolves:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    type Black Spiders Adult
    dictionary Black_Spiders_Adult ; Used Spiders
    category cavalry
    class heavy
    voice_type Heavy
    banner faction main_cavalry
    banner holy crusade_cavalry
    soldier Elephant_Crew3, 32, 32, 1
    mount black_spidersA
    mount_effect horse +4, camel +2
    attributes hide_improved_forest, hardy, can_withdraw, frighten_foot, frighten_mounted, mercenary_unit, spider_attr, spider_black_attr
    move_speed_mod 1.1
    formation 1.6, 1.6, 2.8, 2.8, 4, horde
    stat_health 1, 3
    stat_pri no
    stat_pri_attr no
    stat_sec 8, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, piercing, none, 25, 1
    stat_sec_attr no
    stat_pri_armour 12, 4, 4, flesh
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat 1
    stat_ground 3, 3, 3, 3
    stat_mental 15, disciplined, highly_trained
    stat_charge_dist 80
    stat_fire_delay 0
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 1, 1250, 350, 100, 400, 1250, 6, 300
    armour_ug_levels 2
    armour_ug_models Elephant_Crew3
    ownership slave, england
    era 0 slave, england
    era 1 slave, england
    era 2 slave, england
    recruit_priority_offset 15
    I do not have Third Age myself, but try replacing the stat_pri line for the spiders with this:

    Code:
    stat_pri         0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1
    Also, if these spiders were coded as elephants, they have zero defences at the time as stat_pri_armour is for riders only, change stat_sec_armour to:

    Code:
    stat_sec_armour 16, 4, flesh
    Know that the "shield" has been merged into armour as mounts do not have shield stats, stat_pri_armour will need to be changed accordingly for auto-resolve balance.
    Last edited by Medusa0; June 17, 2016 at 01:00 PM.

  9. #149
    Greymane's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: We need your help in collecting data about the ents, spiders and wolves crashes! please read the first post of this thread before replying

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa0 View Post
    I do not have Third Age myself, but try replacing the stat_pri line for the spiders with this:

    Code:
    stat_pri         0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1
    Also, if these spiders were coded as elephants, they have zero defences at the time as stat_pri_armour is for riders only, change stat_sec_armour to:

    Code:
    stat_sec_armour 16, 4, flesh
    Know that the "shield" has been merged into armour as mounts do not have shield stats, stat_pri_armour will need to be changed accordingly for auto-resolve balance.
    Thank you very much, also for the additions! Can someone with the spider problems please check if makes a difference?

  10. #150
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    Default Re: We need your help in collecting data about the ents, spiders and wolves crashes! please read the first post of this thread before replying

    Played a Custom battle with a few spiders without edits and it crashed without even making it to the battle screen. Tried it a few times with the edits in place and sadly the result was the same.

    @Medusa0 Thanks for trying to help anyway.

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  11. #151

    Default Re: We need your help in collecting data about the ents, spiders and wolves crashes! please read the first post of this thread before replying

    After a ton of experiments (for my Berserker project) with custom elephant type mounts I have narrowed the crash down to the matter of model bones/animations rendering issue - properly made elephants have all of their riders display properly, i.e. not invisible until the mount is killed. To add to that, the battle crashes can be averted if the player does not turn their camera toward the crash prone units.

    The display issue occurs with both re-purposed infantry and horse cavalry mount models, so it seems that the solution is to re-make the spiders, Ents, and other crash prone models to be able to display their riders normally (we can hide them easily as covered by the next paragraph).

    As for why a crash occurs at the end of the load bar if the spiders are used as the general unit, their crews probably do not have a sprite assigned in the BMDB. To hide the crew sprites, modify the rider_offset to hide them underground or inside the body of the mount, but not too low as it would actually cause the unit to "drown" when placed near bodies of water in battle deployment (as per Mr. Crow's Warwagons, that will actually die when placed near bridges because of this).

    Unfortunately I know next to nothing on how to make working elephant type models - perhaps whoever made the Mmakil and Easterner Chariots can shed some light on the issue?
    Last edited by Medusa0; June 23, 2016 at 11:48 PM.

  12. #152
    Withwnar's Avatar Script To The Waist
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    Default Re: We need your help in collecting data about the ents, spiders and wolves crashes! please read the first post of this thread before replying

    Good work Mesusa0. I was wondering if riderless had something to do with it, as they all have that in common.

    it seems that the solution is to re-make the spiders, Ents, and other crash prone models to be able to display their riders normally
    To hide the crew sprites, modify the rider_offset...
    The crew models would somehow need hiding too wouldn't they? Or does rider_offset affect models as well? Not really my area but it seems that fixing sprites is only half the battle.

  13. #153
    Veteraan's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
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    Default Re: We need your help in collecting data about the ents, spiders and wolves crashes! please read the first post of this thread before replying

    That is interesting stuff indeed.

    Any idea why a lot of people (fortunately) are never affected at all by these problems, where others always have these problems?

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  14. #154

    Default Re: We need your help in collecting data about the ents, spiders and wolves crashes! please read the first post of this thread before replying

    Quote Originally Posted by Withwnar View Post
    The crew models would somehow need hiding too wouldn't they? Or does rider_offset affect models as well? Not really my area but it seems that fixing sprites is only half the battle.
    rider_offset can indeed hide the crew models, in fact, this is how the Warwagon mod hide the "mahout" by modifying the first value to be underground.

    With larger mounts, hiding the crews inside the mount model is also possible, and would likely be preferable - as back in RTW days, projectile weapons actually target the riders, so they can miss the mount entirely if the rider is outside the collision sphere of the mount (granted, it is possible to kill individual crews in both RTW and M2TW with AOE projectile weapons such as explosive cannon shots, I have not tested to see if killing the mahout kill the mount instantly, but I digress). Alternatively, we can simply assign a crew model with an alpha'd texture to make it invisible, it will not get the dirt/blood texture on elephant units.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veteraan View Post
    Any idea why a lot of people (fortunately) are never affected at all by these problems, where others always have these problems?
    Since the crash is rendering related, I suspect that some video hardware simply does not care and continues playing, while others chug on the exception.


    Edit, found a potential fix:

    With some help from BM309K58SMERCH, this is what is causing a number of custom elephant battle crashes: the model for the elephant mount and its animation .cas files must contain "bone_E_platform" - this is the bone that is hard-coded to several elephant related features, including displaying multiple riders.

    The fix requires modifying the models to rename what is meant to be the "root" bone with "bone_E_platform" (not the root node itself, this is bone_pelvis for infantries), and then modify the unit's animation .cas files and rename the renamed bone references to bone_E_platform. A modelling software such as Milkshape or 3ds Max and Knight Errant's GOAT will be needed for this to work.

    PM me for more details if needed.
    Last edited by Medusa0; June 24, 2016 at 06:14 PM.

  15. #155
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    Default Re: We need your help in collecting data about the ents, spiders and wolves crashes! please read the first post of this thread before replying

    2 completely diffenrent pcs (one intel/nvidia laptop, one amd desktop) with windows 10 and both crash with these units.

    Is anyone with some skills working on a fix based on Medusa0/ BM309K58SMERCH suggestion? Unfortunately i have no clue how to edit animations, i tried unpacking the TA anims pack (the link of unpacked ones aviable for download is no longer working) and try to edit them with GOAt tools, but nothing.
    Disclaimer: the post above is way way prealpha, the final version will be way better than this.

  16. #156
    alreadyded's Avatar Work up a #6 on 'em!
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    Default Re: We need your help in collecting data about the ents, spiders and wolves crashes! please read the first post of this thread before replying

    All the crap I made is going to be redone anyway, I doubt I will spend my time fixing placeholder models when I could just spend it remaking them. Bats, Wolves, Wargs, and Bears have already been remade to much higher quality I just never released them.

    As for whether this fix would work or not I do not know, it is certainly possible but so are many others, and it could be more than one thing. Many here have reported crashes before the battle even loads, while others get a crash after hitting start battle, these must be two different things from what I can tell. Personally I have never had the ctd while loading the battle. I used to get ctd's after hitting start battle consistently but after editing all the battle_wait timers in the BAI script they stopped permanently. Neither of these should be directly affected by rendering since in one case nothing has been rendered yet, and in the other everything has already been rendered. I will add it to my to do list to check out though when I have free time, thanks for the info.
    Last edited by alreadyded; July 10, 2016 at 02:48 PM.

  17. #157
    alreadyded's Avatar Work up a #6 on 'em!
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    Default Re: We need your help in collecting data about the ents, spiders and wolves crashes! please read the first post of this thread before replying

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa0 View Post
    rider_offset can indeed hide the crew models, in fact, this is how the Warwagon mod hide the "mahout" by modifying the first value to be underground.

    With larger mounts, hiding the crews inside the mount model is also possible, and would likely be preferable - as back in RTW days, projectile weapons actually target the riders, so they can miss the mount entirely if the rider is outside the collision sphere of the mount (granted, it is possible to kill individual crews in both RTW and M2TW with AOE projectile weapons such as explosive cannon shots, I have not tested to see if killing the mahout kill the mount instantly, but I digress). Alternatively, we can simply assign a crew model with an alpha'd texture to make it invisible, it will not get the dirt/blood texture on elephant units.



    Since the crash is rendering related, I suspect that some video hardware simply does not care and continues playing, while others chug on the exception.


    Edit, found a potential fix:

    With some help from BM309K58SMERCH, this is what is causing a number of custom elephant battle crashes: the model for the elephant mount and its animation .cas files must contain "bone_E_platform" - this is the bone that is hard-coded to several elephant related features, including displaying multiple riders.

    The fix requires modifying the models to rename what is meant to be the "root" bone with "bone_E_platform" (not the root node itself, this is bone_pelvis for infantries), and then modify the unit's animation .cas files and rename the renamed bone references to bone_E_platform. A modelling software such as Milkshape or 3ds Max and Knight Errant's GOAT will be needed for this to work.

    PM me for more details if needed.
    Some of the dragons I made, the larger ones, already use much of the elephant animations just reworked. So I need multiple people experiencing these crashes to download my mod and test those larger dragons to see if it crashes. In the mean time I will add in the missing stuff to the spider or Ent animations in vanilla so it can be tested.

  18. #158
    alreadyded's Avatar Work up a #6 on 'em!
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    Default Re: We need your help in collecting data about the ents, spiders and wolves crashes! please read the first post of this thread before replying

    No feedback yet, if I don't get any soon this will have to wait until next weekend or longer .

  19. #159

    Default Re: We need your help in collecting data about the ents, spiders and wolves crashes! please read the first post of this thread before replying

    Would had, but am one of the lucky dastards who have no crashes myself
    Last edited by Ngugi; July 16, 2016 at 02:56 PM.

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  20. #160
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    Default Re: We need your help in collecting data about the ents, spiders and wolves crashes! please read the first post of this thread before replying

    - Crashes Yes/No: Yes

    - Windows version: Windows 10 Pro 64-bit

    - CPU: Intel Pentium G3240 3.1 GHz

    - RAM (memory): 12 GB DDR3 1600 MHz

    - Video card (GPU): Nvidia/MSI

    - Video card (GPU) type and memory: GeForce GTX 750 Ti MSI OC 2GB Edition

    - Video driver version:
    368.81

    - Game shader version: 2

    - Additional info: So far my game only crashed with wolves and multiple Saurons. Also all graphics settings are on high/very high with Antialiasing off.
    After a bit of testing, I noticed that the game never crashes if I fight just one stack of monsters (wolves, spiders, mumakils and others). But if I fight against a whole army of them, it crashes.
    Last edited by Lord of Shadows; July 18, 2016 at 09:01 AM.

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