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Thread: Discussion about the ents, spiders and wolves crashes.

  1. #61
    Veteraan's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
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    Default Re: We need your help in collecting data about the ents, spiders and wolves crashes! please read the first post of this thread before replying

    Thank you. A faulty DVD, that really is a nightmare.

    As for testing, your offer is much appreciated although I can't think of anything to test right now apart from doing the same (custom) battle a fairly big number of times in Windows 7 and 8 to make as sure as possible that 7 never crashes and 8 does. Having said that, I doubt anybody who is troubled by these crashes has even the slightest chance to play that battle you recorded successfully.
    There might be some much more knowledgeable visitors to this thread who can suggest some useful tests for somebody who seems to have crash free install and a crashing one with the hardware being identical. It might take a while though for someone to do so.

    Youtube. I think about every new member has had difficulty getting them embedded. The right way to do it is not obvious at all. Basically you only take a part of the link and put that between youtube tags. For your video it should look like this:

    [YOUTUBE]6Y1ojfU99JE[/YOUTUBE]

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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  2. #62

    Default Re: We need your help in collecting data about the ents, spiders and wolves crashes! please read the first post of this thread before replying

    Nice, thanks for the hint!

    And, ok, the only thing I'll still do is to have a larger battle with all the "troublesome" creatures on Windows 7 (as a kind of stress test) and to try and see if Windows 10 (8.1 is no more) gives the same errors.

  3. #63

    Default Re: We need your help in collecting data about the ents, spiders and wolves crashes! please read the first post of this thread before replying

    Final Update:

    Windows 10: CTD
    Windows 7: Survived the benchmark (8 armies, wolves, ents, wargs, spiders against all kinds of enemies)
    Not a single problem detected. Played the battle 3 times.

    I'm done for today! Have a nice summer!

  4. #64
    Marso's Avatar Foederatus
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    Default Re: We need your help in collecting data about the ents, spiders and wolves crashes! please read the first post of this thread before replying

    - Crashes Yes/No: Yes, (only with spiders and wolves, i tried ents on a custom batte and everything was ok, but i never met them in the campaign, so i don't know. The same with Balrog and the others. I noticed that if the spiders are in another army made of men, with a man general, the game doesn't crash and you can fight them without problems).

    - Windows version: windows 7 home premium

    - CPU: Intel core i3 2,7 GHz

    - RAM (memory): 4 GB

    - Video card (GPU) :


    - Video card (GPU) type and memory:

    - Video driver version:

    - Game shader version:

    - Additional info:

    PS As you can see i'm a noob and i can't find this infos.

  5. #65
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    Default Re: We need your help in collecting data about the ents, spiders and wolves crashes! please read the first post of this thread before replying

    Quote Originally Posted by Marso View Post
    - Crashes Yes/No: Yes, (only with spiders and wolves, i tried ents on a custom batte and everything was ok, but i never met them in the campaign, so i don't know. The same with Balrog and the others. I noticed that if the spiders are in another army made of men, with a man general, the game doesn't crash and you can fight them without problems).

    - Windows version: windows 7 home premium

    - CPU: Intel core i3 2,7 GHz

    - RAM (memory): 4 GB

    - Video card (GPU) :


    - Video card (GPU) type and memory:

    - Video driver version:

    - Game shader version:

    - Additional info:

    PS As you can see i'm a noob and i can't find this infos.
    Did it crash before it loaded up or after you could see the battlefield and pressed start battle?

  6. #66

    Default Re: We need your help in collecting data about the ents, spiders and wolves crashes! please read the first post of this thread before replying

    - Crashes Yes/No: yes.

    I used to dread facing spiders in battle. In my memory is was a hit or miss when fighting them in terms of CTD. Both crashes to desktop at the start of battle or after a few minutes how occurred. My (biased) experience tells me that there was about 50/50 chance of a CTD.


    However, I did some testing tonight and I have experienced just one CTD while fighting 15 battles, both custom and campaign. The only crash happed during a campaign ambush. The only thing that is different from the other battles was that it took place after playing 9 turns without restarting or loading a save game.

    See attachment for details of tests.

    - Windows version: Windows 7 Home Premium

    - CPU: Intel(R) Core™ i7-2630QM CPU @ 2.00Ghz

    - RAM (memory): 6.00 GB


    - Video card (GPU) : 64-bit Operating Systym

    - Video card (GPU) type and memory:

    - Video driver version: Nvidia GEFORCE GT 540M cuda 1GB

    - Game shader version: 2

    - Additional info: most graphics (eye candy unit and building details on high details, most technical settings on medium (anti-aliasing etc)


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    For testing used:
    Mod used: latest version of RK mod
    Custom battles map: grassy plains

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Crashes test.pdf 
Views:	17 
Size:	233.9 KB 
ID:	328502-

    Last edited by Davek; August 06, 2015 at 02:23 PM.

  7. #67
    Veteraan's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
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    Default Re: We need your help in collecting data about the ents, spiders and wolves crashes! please read the first post of this thread before replying

    That is interesting. Having a crash in Windows 7 was something that was not reported until very recently. And the one you had could be a fluke.

    If you have the time and are willing to do a few more tests, that could be very useful. For that I would suggest:

    A few battles against the hidden spiders which caused the one crash you had. I you have a saved game or could make one that would be best because than you can make certain to do battle without having played any turns previously.

    Second a custom battle with 5 Ent units against 5 Spider units. If that doesn't crash I suggest going all the way with a full stack of Ents against a full stack of Spiders. I have never seen anybody who experiences these crashes report they were able to successfully play that particular setup even once. For people who are not troubled by this it seems to be no problem at all (unless there computer has very low stats).

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  8. #68
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    Default Re: We need your help in collecting data about the ents, spiders and wolves crashes! please read the first post of this thread before replying

    Quote Originally Posted by Davek View Post
    - Crashes Yes/No: yes.

    I used to dread facing spiders in battle. In my memory is was a hit or miss when fighting them in terms of CTD. Both crashes to desktop at the start of battle or after a few minutes how occurred. My (biased) experience tells me that there was about 50/50 chance of a CTD.


    However, I did some testing tonight and I have experienced just one CTD while fighting 15 battles, both custom and campaign. The only crash happed during a campaign ambush. The only thing that is different from the other battles was that it took place after playing 9 turns without restarting or loading a save game.

    See attachment for details of tests.

    - Windows version: Windows 7 Home Premium

    - CPU: Intel(R) Core™ i7-2630QM CPU @ 2.00Ghz

    - RAM (memory): 6.00 GB


    - Video card (GPU) : 64-bit Operating Systym

    - Video card (GPU) type and memory:

    - Video driver version: Nvidia GEFORCE GT 540M cuda 1GB

    - Game shader version: 2

    - Additional info: most graphics (eye candy unit and building details on high details, most technical settings on medium (anti-aliasing etc)


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    For testing used:
    Mod used: latest version of RK mod
    Custom battles map: grassy plains

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Crashes test.pdf 
Views:	17 
Size:	233.9 KB 
ID:	328502-

    This sounds like the BAI script causing the crash to me. A trace log should point right to the problem if it crashes after the battle loads up.

  9. #69

    Default Re: We need your help in collecting data about the ents, spiders and wolves crashes! please read the first post of this thread before replying

    How do I obtain a trace log?

  10. #70
    alreadyded's Avatar Work up a #6 on 'em!
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    Default Re: We need your help in collecting data about the ents, spiders and wolves crashes! please read the first post of this thread before replying

    Enabling Trace in the Log
    Open TATW.cfg (using a text editor like Notepad or Notepad++, all of them are free programs) in your mod folder (default name is Third_Age_3) and change the entry;


    Code:
    [log]
    to = logs/system.log.txt
    ;level = * trace
    level = * error
    to

    Code:
    [log]
    to = logs/system.log.txt
    level = * trace
    ;level = * error

    You are just swapping the ";" and saving the file. You only have to do this once. Uploading the whole log is best if you get a crash, but posting the last 50-100 lines of the log is usually good enough. If the file is very large compress (zip/rar) it before uploading.
    Last edited by alreadyded; August 09, 2015 at 08:08 PM.

  11. #71

    Default Re: We need your help in collecting data about the ents, spiders and wolves crashes! please read the first post of this thread before replying

    Quote Originally Posted by nm4991 View Post
    Final Update:

    Windows 10: CTD
    Windows 7: Survived the benchmark (8 armies, wolves, ents, wargs, spiders against all kinds of enemies)
    Not a single problem detected. Played the battle 3 times.

    I'm done for today! Have a nice summer!
    Already +rep'd.
    That was a very helpful insightful piece of time-consuming work. Well done!

  12. #72

    Default Re: We need your help in collecting data about the ents, spiders and wolves crashes! please read the first post of this thread before replying

    Test batch 2.

    · First loaded the ambush save where I did have a CTD before (RK mod). > 5 repetions, no CTD
    · Second tested custom battles, (RK mod). > CTD's after a few repetitions
    · Third installed MOS 1.7. and tried custom battles. > CTD's after a few repetitions

    First impression/hypothesis; it might be related in my case to virtual memory. Since all CTD take place after several successfully played battles or turns. The larger battles seems to crash after less repetitions than smaller ones.
    In total 18 tests with 4 CTD, which I have collected 3 log files. 2 short logs and one really long one. Thanks alreadyded, for showing to enable that one.

    See attachments for details:


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Of the long log the last 50 or so lines are in the PDF file, it was too large to upload on this site, or to convert to PDF. If somebody wants to see the whole file. I could send it by We transfer.
    2 CTD Test custom battle logs Latest RK mod.txtClick image for larger version. 

Name:	Crashes test last lines long log.pdf 
Views:	0 
Size:	101.6 KB 
ID:	328566 Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Crashes test version 2.pdf 
Views:	6 
Size:	268.5 KB 
ID:	328565

    During testing where harmed 1559 Elfs, 5134 Orcs, 3975 men, 1432 Wolfs and 18903 Spiders.

    It is worth of note that no Ents where harmed during testing although mental problems might be a issue after harming 16.725 spiders and 1432 wolfs. On a second thought trees have no mental capacity, so therefore no mental problems...... they should also not be walking ....... Davek wanders of to find a good Psychiatrist.
    Last edited by Davek; August 08, 2015 at 01:02 AM. Reason: Managing attechments

  13. #73
    Withwnar's Avatar Script To The Waist
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    Default Re: We need your help in collecting data about the ents, spiders and wolves crashes! please read the first post of this thread before replying

    Good on you, Davek, for doing those tests.

    If you zip/rar a log .txt file then it should be small enough to attach.

  14. #74

    Default Re: We need your help in collecting data about the ents, spiders and wolves crashes! please read the first post of this thread before replying

    The full log file, after a CDT with spiders.

    test MOS 1.7 system.log.rar

  15. #75
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    Default Re: We need your help in collecting data about the ents, spiders and wolves crashes! please read the first post of this thread before replying

    - Crashes Yes/No: Yeas, sometimes.

    - Windows version: 10 Home 64

    - CPU: IC I5-4690k, 3.50 GHz

    - RAM (memory): 16 gb

    - Video card (GPU) : Nvidia Geforce

    - Video card (GPU) type and memory: GeForce GTX 980, 4 gb

    - Video driver version: 353.62

    - Game shader version: 2

    - Additional info: I max everything, only the grass i have of as i hate all the flowers.

  16. #76
    alreadyded's Avatar Work up a #6 on 'em!
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    Default Re: We need your help in collecting data about the ents, spiders and wolves crashes! please read the first post of this thread before replying

    Quote Originally Posted by Davek View Post
    Test batch 2.

    · First loaded the ambush save where I did have a CTD before (RK mod). > 5 repetions, no CTD
    · Second tested custom battles, (RK mod). > CTD's after a few repetitions
    · Third installed MOS 1.7. and tried custom battles. > CTD's after a few repetitions

    First impression/hypothesis; it might be related in my case to virtual memory. Since all CTD take place after several successfully played battles or turns. The larger battles seems to crash after less repetitions than smaller ones.
    In total 18 tests with 4 CTD, which I have collected 3 log files. 2 short logs and one really long one. Thanks alreadyded, for showing to enable that one.

    See attachments for details:


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Of the long log the last 50 or so lines are in the PDF file, it was too large to upload on this site, or to convert to PDF. If somebody wants to see the whole file. I could send it by We transfer.
    2 CTD Test custom battle logs Latest RK mod.txtClick image for larger version. 

Name:	Crashes test last lines long log.pdf 
Views:	0 
Size:	101.6 KB 
ID:	328566 Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Crashes test version 2.pdf 
Views:	6 
Size:	268.5 KB 
ID:	328565

    During testing where harmed 1559 Elfs, 5134 Orcs, 3975 men, 1432 Wolfs and 18903 Spiders.

    It is worth of note that no Ents where harmed during testing although mental problems might be a issue after harming 16.725 spiders and 1432 wolfs. On a second thought trees have no mental capacity, so therefore no mental problems...... they should also not be walking ....... Davek wanders of to find a good Psychiatrist.
    Checked out the logs and the BAI loaded up for all of them before it crashed. However in my mod it always pointed to a battle wait timer in the script which I just changed to fix it, so your crashes are different than the ones I used to get. It is worth mentioning that the spiders in TATW (and probably all submods) are extremely outdated and were no where near finished when KK added them. I even told him he shouldn't add them . So it could very well be the spiders/wolves causing the crash. In my mod the spiders/wolves, etc. and far more updated so it may be something to do with that. As for why the ents/balrog crash I don't know, I'll have to compare some code and look for any differences from the Mumaks which are not causing crashes for anyone from what I have read. I am guessing they are pretty much the same though, KK probably just copy/pasted the details from the elephants in M2TW to make them all since that is the easiest way. Can you post a crashlog of a battle against ents or balrogs? Maybe that will show something different.
    Last edited by alreadyded; August 09, 2015 at 07:50 PM.

  17. #77
    Veteraan's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
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    Default Re: We need your help in collecting data about the ents, spiders and wolves crashes! please read the first post of this thread before replying

    Quote Originally Posted by alreadyded View Post
    (...) I'll have to compare some code and look for any differences from the Mumaks which are not causing crashes for anyone from what I have read. I am guessing they are pretty much the same though. (...)
    Well, the obvious difference between Mumakils and the rest is that their mount is not hidden. Same for the Timurid elephants from MTW2 which I tested and did not crash at all also.

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  18. #78
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    Default Re: We need your help in collecting data about the ents, spiders and wolves crashes! please read the first post of this thread before replying

    Quote Originally Posted by Veteraan View Post
    Well, the obvious difference between Mumakils and the rest is that their mount is not hidden. Same for the Timurid elephants from MTW2 which I tested and did not crash at all also.
    The mount is not hidden, the units are the actual mount. The riders and general (humanoid units) are hidden. It is no different than making the Mumak riders invisible as far as the code is concerned so trying a battle with invisible Mumak riders is worth a try. But yes using a empty 3d model file (just a single vert that cant be seen) for the riders could possibly be the problem. I actually thought of that and tested that already though, the game complains about it in the log for other mods (from what I have seen in the crashlogs in this thread) but not mine, it is weird but it doesn't seem to be the cause since peeps with Windows vista/8+ get crashes in my mod too as far as I know, though maybe less due to certain changes I made. Also if it was causing a crash I doubt it would be OS specific, everyone would experience it. And even if it was OS specific (vista/8+ not liking that file for example) I doubt it would be a random crash, it would probably always crash.

    Also I made Wolf Riders and Warg Riders mounts that have attack animations and visible riders that attack as well (so the mount and rider attack independently) and those function the same in game as invisible riders that don't attack. So I would think that would be more likely to cause a crash if the riders were the actual problem since the game was not even made to do that sort of thing .

    I plan to look into it further though as I redo all my creature units. The only thing I can think of now, other than vista/8+ not being made to run this game engine which is probably the problem, is that the OS doesn't want to read certain files so the game crashes. It could totally still be the BAI too though (directly and indirectly), the OS may not like that either for multiple reasons.


    Edit; For invisible riders on mumaks open export_descr_unit.txt and change "armour_ug_models" entry to "Elephant_Crew3, Elephant_Crew3" for "Mumakil". The more people that test it the better.
    Last edited by alreadyded; August 10, 2015 at 06:25 PM.

  19. #79
    Veteraan's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
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    Default Re: We need your help in collecting data about the ents, spiders and wolves crashes! please read the first post of this thread before replying

    I meant the Mumakils and Timurid elephants of course with not hidden. I did not really expect it to be the cause, but it was the only difference I could think of.

    Although I still hope this will somehow be solved, I agree with you that redoing the affected units will probably be the only working solution in the end. Well, I hope you do have a Eureka moment at some time when you are remodelling your units.

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  20. #80
    alreadyded's Avatar Work up a #6 on 'em!
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    Default Re: We need your help in collecting data about the ents, spiders and wolves crashes! please read the first post of this thread before replying

    Edited my post above.

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