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Thread: v 0.35 Open Test Pack - Last Updated 4/2/2016

  1. #61

    Default Re: v 0.35 Open Test Pack - Last Updated 4/2/2016

    Lakhmids actually have it easier than you think. I've played a few test runs as the Lakhmids for 0.35. It says -1500, but that's actually just -500; as long as you're at peace with the Sassanids, you'll get +1000 each turn, even though the game will keep telling you that you're going bankrupt.

    Also dismantle the military building and replace it with an industrial one. You'll be fine.
    Last edited by Augustusng; April 05, 2016 at 05:15 PM.

  2. #62
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: v 0.35 Open Test Pack - Last Updated 4/2/2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Augustusng View Post
    Lakhmids actually have it easier than you think. I've played a few test runs as the Lakhmids for 0.35. It says -1500, but that's actually just -500; as long as you're at peace with the Sassanids, you'll get +1000 each turn, even though the game will keep telling you that you're going bankrupt.

    Also dismantle the military building and replace it with an industrial one. You'll be fine.
    Ok, you're right that an industrial building is the solution - level II providing 1600 solidae, with low upkeep for troops.
    That 1000 from Sassanids seems to come after payment is made for for troops - I witnessed desertions due to lack of money despite of having surplus afterwards.
    I also experienced two problems:
    - Bani Lakhm is vasal of the Sassanids, but other vassals declared war on me (Mazun, Xvarazm, but not Hayasdan). With Mazun I have at the same time War and Military Access... And they refuse to talk all the time, so that I cannot end this war (Sassanids are at peace with all: Mazun, Xvarasm, Bani Lakhm).
    - In one settlement (Hira) I have Hamlet, Camel Herd and Threadmaker - it should be 1 squalor, but the game says 2 squalor. The neighbouring Dumatha has Hamlet, Camel Herd and Levy Centre, and rightly 1 squalor. Perhaps the Threadmaker also provides 1 squalor, but it's not included in the description?

    Besides, the Sassanids drew me into war with the Romans and Himyar... difficult.

  3. #63

    Default Re: v 0.35 Open Test Pack - Last Updated 4/2/2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    - Bani Lakhm is vasal of the Sassanids, but other vassals declared war on me (Mazun, Xvarazm, but not Hayasdan). With Mazun I have at the same time War and Military Access... And they refuse to talk all the time, so that I cannot end this war (Sassanids are at peace with all: Mazun, Xvarasm, Bani Lakhm).
    I thought I fixed that. I removed the table I thought was causing that issue... oh no, nevermind. That's actually a vanilla bug. I might have to look into fixing that, if possible.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    - In one settlement (Hira) I have Hamlet, Camel Herd and Threadmaker - it should be 1 squalor, but the game says 2 squalor. The neighbouring Dumatha has Hamlet, Camel Herd and Levy Centre, and rightly 1 squalor. Perhaps the Threadmaker also provides 1 squalor, but it's not included in the description?
    Is there a horde in that region? Hordes in your regions will also add squalor and reduce public order. I forgot to put that in the manual, but that's important too. I'll add that now.

  4. #64

    Default Re: v 0.35 Open Test Pack - Last Updated 4/2/2016

    It has ocurred to me that it would be a good idea to give both roman factions the "same blood" trait to simulate a possible reunification of the empire. This makes it much easier to expand to both sides of the map as either empire and is historically accurate given that roman civil wars never saw a complete siege campaign of every city to take control of the state, instead the pretender´s armies would meet and the winner would take the whole empire for himself.

  5. #65

    Default Re: v 0.35 Open Test Pack - Last Updated 4/2/2016

    Re-enabling confederations is something we're thinking about for a future update, if we can solve some of the problems involved with that. But... we're thinking of doing something a little more interesting for the Romans and other factions. Something like the AoC "kingdom" events.

  6. #66
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: v 0.35 Open Test Pack - Last Updated 4/2/2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Augustusng View Post
    Is there a horde in that region? Hordes in your regions will also add squalor and reduce public order. I forgot to put that in the manual, but that's important too. I'll add that now.
    Yep, you're right - there's one. Thanks!
    Another question concerning the Arabs, since I've just conquered Zafar.
    - The Ma'arib Dam seems to provide Sanitation (2 points) but it's not shown in the description,
    - additionaly, after conquered by the Lakhmids it has that red triangle indicating "Building is not available to your faction". But 1. it should be available for all the Arabs, 2. actually it is - I get the fertility benefit (wow, 5 levels), and also the 20% buff for agricultural wealth.

  7. #67

    Default Re: v 0.35 Open Test Pack - Last Updated 4/2/2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    Yep, you're right - there's one. Thanks!
    Another question concerning the Arabs, since I've just conquered Zafar.
    - The Ma'arib Dam seems to provide Sanitation (2 points) but it's not shown in the description,
    - additionaly, after conquered by the Lakhmids it has that red triangle indicating "Building is not available to your faction". But 1. it should be available for all the Arabs, 2. actually it is - I get the fertility benefit (wow, 5 levels), and also the 20% buff for agricultural wealth.
    The sanitation thing is very strange. I wonder if that's a hidden effect somewhere, or there's something else going on?

    The red triangle is probably a vanilla thing. I mean, it's not a building you can build anywhere else, anyway. I don't know why it even needs that restriction.

    And yeah, the fertility bonus is huge. I may nerf that, but it's really only half the bonus you get in vanilla, since 5 doesn't mean as much with 10 levels. Oh and wow, that agricultural buff is factionwide. I hadn't realized that. That's probably getting nerfed.

  8. #68
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: v 0.35 Open Test Pack - Last Updated 4/2/2016

    Hi Augustusng,
    Two questions concerning the EP manual:
    I.
    The manual states: “Base income has been removed. At lower imperium levels, you'll get some bonuses to mitigate this, but they'll disappear after imperium level 3. “
    I suppose you mean that 50% / 20% bonus for upkeep of the units, right?
    This mechanism (which I see working in-game) contradicts the description of the version 0.2 EP: “Recruitment/upkeep costs changed per imperium level. The higher your imperium is, the higher your recruitment costs are, but upkeep costs are cheaper.”
    Am I right to state that the sentence on 0.2 is not true anymore?
    II.
    The manual states: “recruitment points in each province/horde, determining how many units you can recruit there each turn.”
    Do I get it right that there are 2 different factors limiting the troops availability in a recruitment situation:
    1. recruitment slots in a province (traditional mechanism in TW series)
    2. recruitment points which set limit faction wise? (btw, how does it work? in all your provinces you cannot recruit more units than the number of recruitment point?)
    (well, then there are also other limits: you need a military building in the province, there are caps on total number of a particular unit (and total number of units? – well, I don’t know if they are in ATW, but I’ve seen it in R2TW, and also in previous games), AoR restrictions (or I’m spoiled by DeI, EB, SS, and there’re none in ATW?) etc.), and money ;-)

  9. #69

    Default Re: v 0.35 Open Test Pack - Last Updated 4/2/2016

    I. Oops, yeah. I removed that mechanic for 0.35, because it made the economy even more difficult to balance.

    II. You get one factionwide bonus to recruitment points - that's the base number (1 for hordes and naval units, 0 for land units when settled). Everything else is determined by the buildings in the province. I don't think there are any hard unit caps on vanilla units in Attila.

  10. #70
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: v 0.35 Open Test Pack - Last Updated 4/2/2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Augustusng View Post
    II. You get one factionwide bonus to recruitment points - that's the base number (1 for hordes and naval units, 0 for land units when settled). Everything else is determined by the buildings in the province. I don't think there are any hard unit caps on vanilla units in Attila.
    To be perfectly clear: there is that difference between "recruitment slots" and "recruitment point"? Or it's the same?

  11. #71

    Default Re: v 0.35 Open Test Pack - Last Updated 4/2/2016

    Yeah, those are the same.

  12. #72
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: v 0.35 Open Test Pack - Last Updated 4/2/2016

    Hi Augustusng,
    Some observations on economy from my Garamantian campaign:

    • I find that provinces give now twice as much money as before (it was between 2000 and 3000, now 5000 and 6000). I think it makes the game much easier for the big empires. Besides, it’s much easier to keep the armies.
    • The relation between costs of a building and the return from a building has been broken. Actually, building costs are so little, that you don’t have short term/ long term choices, you just build what is possible (Workshop 930 or so, while providing 700 etc.). Similarly, reparations after a battle cost peanuts – it’s no irrelevant element of the game.
    • You’ve buffed Industry and Commercial buildings, but I don’t think you’ve touched specialized Industrial buildings. For instance, a Lead Deposit (level I) gives 50 gold, while simple Workshop (level I) gives 700, Companionship Tents (level I) 1800. Since trade in lead/iron etc. gives comparatively little money, the best choice now is not to build any specialized building. Resources are becoming irrelevant, it think.
    • I don’t think it’s very historical that Pleasure Houses provide huge amounts of money, much more any other commercial or industrial building (even if there’re penalties on religion).


    EDIT: I've checked and Pleasure Houses are in the game without EP, so it's just a general remark.
    And to sum up other parts: I just think there's too much money around.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; April 08, 2016 at 02:25 PM.

  13. #73
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    Default Re: v 0.35 Open Test Pack - Last Updated 4/2/2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    Hi Augustusng,
    Some observations on economy from my Garamantian campaign:

    • I find that provinces give now twice as much money as before (it was between 2000 and 3000, now 5000 and 6000). I think it makes the game much easier for the big empires. Besides, it’s much easier to keep the armies.
    • The relation between costs of a building and the return from a building has been broken. Actually, building costs are so little, that you don’t have short term/ long term choices, you just build what is possible (Workshop 930 or so, while providing 700 etc.). Similarly, reparations after a battle cost peanuts – it’s no irrelevant element of the game.
    • You’ve buffed Industry and Commercial buildings, but I don’t think you’ve touched specialized Industrial buildings. For instance, a Lead Deposit (level I) gives 50 gold, while simple Workshop (level I) gives 700, Companionship Tents (level I) 1800. Since trade in lead/iron etc. gives comparatively little money, the best choice now is not to build any specialized building. Resources are becoming irrelevant, it think.
    • I don’t think it’s very historical that Pleasure Houses provide huge amounts of money, much more any other commercial or industrial building (even if there’re penalties on religion).


    EDIT: I've checked and Pleasure Houses are in the game without EP, so it's just a general remark.
    And to sum up other parts: I just think there's too much money around.
    At first I had the same thought, but, in looking at the starting armies for both the ERE and WRE, they are drastically under-manned (at under 50% of maximum stack size, most barbarian stacks are twice as strong), and equipped with the poorest quality of soldiers (cheap Numeri). Expect that 6000 to be easily eaten up by just a few of the Comitatensis units (at around 200 maintenance each, 30 would eliminate that 6000 income in one swoop), plus there are a lot of support buildings that need to be added (notably sanitation), and they too also eat up cash, plus your happiness is low. While at first it looks like a lot, it can easily be deminished.

    In regards to total money, there is a lot, but, it can be eaten up. However, I agree that building costs could be increased to compensate for the increase of income. I used to do the math to realize that a workshop would take X many years to balance out the cost (given corruption that was a long time), now the payoff is nearly instant, as cost is very comparable to income. While the costs should not be prohibitive (who has 5000 for a basic level workshop), maybe a slight increase would be warranted? That or a slight reduction of income in some structures, and a slight reduction of maintenance costs to compensate for the loss of income? Economy balance is tricky, but I think that the total income is fairly good, possibly just tweaking about how to get to that number so it isn't easy to make it drastically higher.
    Last edited by MajorTom; April 08, 2016 at 04:14 PM.

  14. #74
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    Default Re: v 0.35 Open Test Pack - Last Updated 4/2/2016

    Ah, I meant "my Lakhmid campaign". And I meant problems not ERE/WRE, but Eranshahr - with their vassals they are absolutely unstoppable. They can field many, many armies. They eat ERE easily and fast - in 405 they conquered 10 regions: Makran in Egypt, Armenia in Asia Minor and Eranshahr Syria-Palestina. And it happened even though I (Lakhmids) had to fight their other two vassals: Mazun and Khoresm (due to that vanilla glitch, having both Military Alliance and War with them, and being unable to conduct diplomacy). An Khoresmian army made the whole long way to Hira just to attack me.
    I would suspect that the vassals are the main problem for ERE dealing with Eranshahr - ERE fights actually 6 countries at the same time. I find it pretty unhistorical.

    Total money - I think the way "higher income from the budildings -> higher costs of the buildings" leaves out the issue of the units' costs. The result would be more and more armies on the map. Me, personally, I would rather lower the income from industry and trade. A province with 6k income can field 2 armies, so you can have plenty. And after some time you'd get more provinces - then you'd be floode with money, each providing 6, and then (at levels III-IV) perphaps 10 and more thousands. For ERE/WRE this might be useful, but for other empires - too much. And one should do something with Eranshahr.

  15. #75
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: v 0.35 Open Test Pack - Last Updated 4/2/2016

    Guys, can you just hint me what should I change with PFM to nerf the vassal income?

  16. #76

    Default Re: v 0.35 Open Test Pack - Last Updated 4/2/2016

    If you just want to change the vassal income for the Sassanids, you can lower their faction trait - in fac_effect_bundles_to_effects_junctions in EP. It's the faction trait line currently set to 100 (increases income by 100%).

    And I'll look into your other suggestions. Yeah, I didn't think about the impact on the resource buildings, so that might be worth changing.

  17. #77
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    Default Re: v 0.35 Open Test Pack - Last Updated 4/2/2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Augustusng View Post
    If you just want to change the vassal income for the Sassanids, you can lower their faction trait - in fac_effect_bundles_to_effects_junctions in EP. It's the faction trait line currently set to 100 (increases income by 100%).
    Thanks, Augustusng, I have lowered it to 0 to see the effect. And indeed it works: in my previous Sassanid game the income from 6 vassals is down from 8800 to 6200.

    It would nevertheless make not a big impact, since a 30-regions empire with mostly 2-level buildings and only 4 industry/commerce buildings total (plus 7 resource buildings) is still making 28,000 a turn. A province with two ind/comm buildings is making 6000 a turn (which translates into upkeep of an average of 40 units, right?). If you're going to buff-up also the resource building, than there'll be even more money...

    Nevertheless, I'll take up the ERE campaign now, given the benefits for the buildings it should be easier, but Eranshahr and it's vassals will still provide formidable challange.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; April 09, 2016 at 04:13 AM.

  18. #78
    MajorTom's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: v 0.35 Open Test Pack - Last Updated 4/2/2016

    In pretty much every version of Attila I find that the Visigoths are in for a tough time. With EP and FotE, the increased garrisons make this even tougher. The Ostrogoths seem to have an easier time, primarily due to the fact that they start in friendly territory, and are based out of the periphery of the WRE whom they are at war with. The Visigoths are in the midst of the ERE, with no safe or friendly zones around. Given that they tend to sack, they will eventually be tied down and eliminated by the ERE field army, along with the strong garrisons. The Ostrogoths can retreat into friendly foreign soil should they get in trouble (indeed, usually before they get into the WRE they have two full stacks, trained while moving through friendly territories).

    I have tested out changing the occupation policies of the 'destroyer' factions. Increasing 'liberate' to be higher than 'sack' (significantly), means that what they do is they liberate any nation possible, and once that is done, they sack (if there are no states to liberate, the option is treated as a 0 and the next highest ratios take precidence). What this does is to create a friendly faction for these nomads to camp out near, plus, another faction that the ERE/WRE has to deal with (more people at war). This tends to slow down, and even stop the destruction of the Visigoths (who tend to migrate north into WRE territory after setting loose the Dacians and Macedonians on the ERE). The Ostrogoths free Illyria for the WRE to deal with, and eventually capture a settlement of their own.

    I also use this mod...

    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile.../?id=497088224

    Which increases the starting ranks of the generals of the game. This script represents that you are merely entering the game at a period of time, where generals have experience (not starting at rank 1, many at rank 2, some at rank 3). This mod is interesting as your starting generals are a bit more important (losing a Rank 3 general is keenly felt). It also helps the nomads to survive a bit better (given that their 2 generals are constantly at war, they gain experience quickly, Alaric got to Rank 5 very quick, and became a real threat to the ERE).

    A mod like this kind of gives control (a bit) to the survivability of certain factions (as I am pretty sure that experience is attached to starting traits in this mod) that you can have a real threatening general (like Alaric of the Visigoths) have a better chance of surviving, and being a threat, by the nature of their starting experience.

  19. #79

    Default Re: v 0.35 Open Test Pack - Last Updated 4/2/2016

    Yeah, that's an interesting idea. Which CAI personalities did you make edits to? I've of course made some myself, but I've only gone as far as to make the "destroyer" personality equally likely to raze or sack a city. I have seen the Visigoths survive before, and even migrate and create a kingdom in Hispania once, but of course it's rare to see that. It's definitely worth looking into the CAI options, and the starting generals could be interesting too. For sure, it makes sense for some leaders to have higher ranks at the start, Alaric especially.

  20. #80
    MajorTom's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: v 0.35 Open Test Pack - Last Updated 4/2/2016

    I pretty much only edited the 'destroyer' to increase 'liberate'. I kind of see liberating as a quick way to get what would happen with repeated sackings (the local population rises up and liberates self), helping to ensure that the roaming migrators have some safe zones in which to move into and grow and not just get surrounded by armies supported by garrisons of their enemy. The Visigoths either get annihilated, or manage to capture a town, then get annihilated. But, with Liberate then Sack as priorities, they tend to move into the WRE (who are usually still at peace with them, or, are too busy dealing with the Ostrogoths, Saxons and Jutes, among others, to single out and annihilate them).

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