2015/16 English Premier League

[Petrucci]

Time for Chelsea fan to step in.
About special one. He is one of the best managers in the World (no1 on my scale for sure). Yet he is not perfect. It will be interesting to see how will this season go.
About City match: Everyone apart Begovic played bad. Pre-season started to late and players are struggling to find form. I hope they will do it before we drop couple more points.
About Wenger. I am listening same stories over and over again. He was great till 2004 (year when Mourinho came btw ) then he sucked for like 10 years, but that was because he didn't have money ,because Emirates were being built. But still he managed to secure top 4 position and enter CL every year and now he has new kick ass stadium and enough money to buy top quality players, but he is not doing so because he likes to develop unkown young players . bla bla bla
it's not like Arsenal was dirt poor while building stadium, they certainly had more money then Villa or Newcastle, mid table clubs ,probably same as Tottenham and Everton, ones just behind top 4 of that time.
Also it's not like Wenger did something spectacular in CL. How many times had Arsenal played CL under his management, 17, 18? And still he didn't win it. Closest he was when he ended as runner up against Barca 2005/6 and he also had one semi finals. Chelsea had 2 finals one of them bringing us title and 5 semi finals.
About Wenger vs Mourinho. Statistic says enough.

About KoH
I think you guys are giving him hard time especially you Halie. So what if he don't support any particular club? He likes watching it, and he has all rights to express his opinion, even more so if he is being right mostly.

[Riverknight]

Wenger was able to keep Arsenal competitive, keep the club stable during a time where there was a shortage of money and yet at the same time play with amazing quality.

I'm not going to even compare the two managers as it is hard to do so, all I can say is I love to watch Arsenal play, I could only really watch Mou with Real and that was mostly due to Ronaldo. I also have much more respect for Wenger due to the way his team plays and his dedication to growing players.

I still remember waking up early on Saturdays when I was little with my dad and going to my local UTD pub and watching the classic United vs Arsenal games; Vierra v Keane, Henry v RvN... those were the DAYS.

Fergie is still the best so this debate is still for who's the second best in the EPL era .

[Ishoss]

Well, to paraphrase a certain douche, Mourinho is a top manager for sure, but he's not a top, top manager.

In the PL era there's only been two of those: Alex Ferguson and Arsene Wenger.

Since WWII; throw in Shanks, Paisley, Busby and Clough.

[Gatsby]

Always found it disappointing how in the PL era there's never been a manager who's really shown tactical brilliance at an underdog club, and overthrown the favourites.

Germany had Klopp who totally disturbed the established order and Spain has Simeone, who achieved something that even in hindsight seems absolutely impossible.

[Ishoss]

I don't agree. Both Atletico and Dortmund are huge clubs and were huge clubs before Klopp and Simeone. They are comparable to Liverpool. The club was bigger than the results. If Rodgers win the league then it is an amazing achievment, but it's not exactly like Fulham winning the league.

I am not trying to discredit Klopp or Simeone but even they have not pulled off a Clough. Atletico was the club most likely to break the duopoly of Spain and Dortmund is in the group of clubs most likely to break Bayerns monopoly at regular intervals.

[Gatsby]

Even if they were the most likely they were still highly unlikely. Dortmund had diced with collapse just a few years before Klopp got there, and before Simeone got there I always had the impression that Valencia were the closest behind the big 2.

Liverpool are much closer to the top 4 in England than Dortmund were to Bayern and Atletico were to Real and Barca. If it isn't remarkable then any decent manager should be semi-regularly getting Liverpool and Spurs into the CL and then deep into the knockout rounds, because what Klopp and Simeone did was far more impressive than that. The Brodge getting 2nd is just about the closest thing we've seen to it in England, and more and more that's beginning to look like a fluke than a tactical masterclass.

Even if we just look at something simple like derbies, Klopp made Dortmund the bogey team of Bayern even when they were in the ascendancy, Simeone has made Real dread every Madrid derby: is there any tactical mind in England who could totally reverse the dynamic of the Merseyside derby, the Liverpool-Manchester derby, or the North London Derby?

[Ishoss]

Even if they were the most likely they were still highly unlikely. Dortmund had diced with collapse just a few years before Klopp got there, and before Simeone got there I always had the impression that Valencia were the closest behind the big 2.

Liverpool are much closer to the top 4 in England than Dortmund were to Bayern and Atletico were to Real and Barca. If it isn't remarkable then any decent manager should be semi-regularly getting Liverpool and Spurs into the CL and then deep into the knockout rounds, because what Klopp and Simeone did was far more impressive than that. The Brodge getting 2nd is just about the closest thing we've seen to it in England, and more and more that's beginning to look like a fluke than a tactical masterclass.

Even if we just look at something simple like derbies, Klopp made Dortmund the bogey team of Bayern even when they were in the ascendancy, Simeone has made Real dread every Madrid derby: is there any tactical mind in England who could totally reverse the dynamic of the Merseyside derby, the Liverpool-Manchester derby, or the North London Derby?

Klopp and Simeone are better than every tactician in England since Rafa, bar perhaps Mourinho (who is a good tactician but a horrible stratege)

And while Liverpool is closer to the top four than Dortmund and Atletico were to the top I still would argue their situation is more favorable. It is harder to attain champions league football in England. If you haven't got champions league football, then you lose a few players due to a lack of champions league football. If Liverpool was more often getting into second and third, then perhaps we would have kept Suarez. My point being: it is easier to build a base in Germany and Spain from a slightly worse platform than that which Liverpool has. Because 4 or 5 teams are consistently better and financed to a large degree. That isn't the case in Spain and Germany, where the absolute top clubs dominate and it is in theory easier to grab one of the last CL-spots and break into the cash.

I also believe to a certain degree that prior success breeds future success. Both Dortmund and Atletico are very succesful clubs. Dortmund had won the CL prior and Atletico had finished runners up once (a long, long time ago though). Atletico is the fourth most succesful team in Spain behind Athlethic, but given Bilbao's restrictions they can't be serious contenders anymore in the long run. When clubs have had success then the fans are more likely to believe that they actually can do the "impossible", which in turn can spill onto the players. This is partly why a Manchester United with a worse team than Chelsea and City since they lost Ronaldo still have put trophies in the cabinet.

[ccllnply]

Always found it disappointing how in the PL era there's never been a manager who's really shown tactical brilliance at an underdog club, and overthrown the favourites.

Germany had Klopp who totally disturbed the established order and Spain has Simeone, who achieved something that even in hindsight seems absolutely impossible.

That kind of thing is practically impossible in modern football. Clough could do it with Derby and Forest because he had a great eye for potential and was one of the best man managers in the history of football.

That worked back then because the tough Sunday leaguer from down the pub could sometimes sometimes put it up the the world's top footballs who was "only" earning a few hundred or thousand more than him. Now you have top clubs literally valued at more than 10 times the lower clubs. Tactics and motivation aren't much good when the Chelsea Man Citys of the world can casually spend a few tens of millions on a whim and push you out of the top 4.

Plus most European clubs who become successful are usually pretty wealthy in both money and history, which isn't the case in England. I know it doesn't seem like it should matter but it does. Hell just look at Glasgow Rangers and Juventus. Those harsh penalties they got were just a minor setbacks.

[Gatsby]

That kind of thing is practically impossible in modern football. Clough could do it with Derby and Forest because he had a great eye for potential and was one of the best man managers in the history of football.

That worked back then because the tough Sunday leaguer from down the pub could sometimes sometimes put it up the the world's top footballs who was "only" earning a few hundred or thousand more than him. Now you have top clubs literally valued at more than 10 times the lower clubs. Tactics and motivation aren't much good when the Chelsea Man Citys of the world can casually spend a few tens of millions on a whim and push you out of the top 4.

Plus most European clubs who become successful are usually pretty wealthy in both money and history, which isn't the case in England. I know it doesn't seem like it should matter but it does. Hell just look at Glasgow Rangers and Juventus. Those harsh penalties they got were just a minor setbacks.

I agree the influence of money in football is just so much greater these days that to compare modern managers to Clough and others from that era is a bit unfair. To punch above your economic weight to any degree is near miraculous in modern football. To do it in a knockout competition is special, to do it in a league is even moreso.

Thats why I feel that to compare modern managers to your Shanklys, Cloughs, Paisleys, etc. is a bit unfair. I think Shankly is one of the top 5 British managers ever, but lets be serious: a man even of his ability would not be able to take a Championship side and bring it to the top of the Premier League as quick as he did these days.


For a team near the top to beat the one or two teams superior to it, even just for one season or a few seasons, is the equivalent to those kinds of achievements these days. The PL is something of an exception because there are 4/5 teams who are great economic powers.

[Petrucci]

Now you have top clubs literally valued at more than 10 times the lower clubs. Tactics and motivation aren't much good when the Chelsea Man Citys of the world can casually spend a few tens of millions on a whim and push.

I disagree. There is no drastic difference in premier league player's value. If we look to the transfermarket data Chelsea is on first place with 382 millions pounds , City on second with 292 , Arsenal on 3rd with 281 , United on forth with 277 , Liverpool 257. Bare in mind City sold Jovetic and loaned Dzeko, and they will have at least one big transfer. Same case with United who sold Di Maria, and RVP. For example last year City's players value was 334 and United's 365! Arsenal is same, but Liverpool got +50 million boost this season.
After big 5 there are 5 more clubs with team value more then 200 m (actually Totenham is worth 200k) Totenham, , Soton, Everton, Toons and Hammers. Swansea is really close with 94 and CP, Stoke, Sunderland and Villa are between 85 and 72 m. Watford, Foxes and Norwich are between 58 and 52, and the poorest club is Bournemouth with pesky 34 m.
Note that transfer window is not over and that clubs will most likely increase their market value.
I think it's fair to say that biggest 4 clubs are about 350-300 and Liverpool is really close with 250. So your statement can only be applied to Those 4 or 5 clubs and Boro. Rest is totally different story. Second five clubs are less then 3 times poorer then first five. And from place 10 to 19, difference in market value is not bigger then 6.
So you are wrong. So called "lower clubs" can and are spending a lot of money to bring some really good players. Newcastle with Wijnaldum and Mitrovic and CP and Cabaye just came in mind. There are more example like Stoke and Shaqiri ,Van Ginkel and Johnson and Affelay.
Besides it's better for players who haven't reached their full potential to play in those clubs then top 5.

I agree the influence of money in football is just so much greater these days that to compare modern managers to Clough and others from that era is a bit unfair. To punch above your economic weight to any degree is near miraculous in modern football. To do it in a knockout competition is special, to do it in a league is even moreso.

Thats why I feel that to compare modern managers to your Shanklys, Cloughs, Paisleys, etc. is a bit unfair. I think Shankly is one of the top 5 British managers ever, but lets be serious: a man even of his ability would not be able to take a Championship side and bring it to the top of the Premier League as quick as he did these days.


For a team near the top to beat the one or two teams superior to it, even just for one season or a few seasons, is the equivalent to those kinds of achievements these days. The PL is something of an exception because there are 4/5 teams who are great economic powers.

For me real football started in 90s with Premier league era. Before that, there weren't nearly as much money in it. Not just that, many important aspects of game were almost neglected.
For example tactics in 60s and 70s you had total football when player who moved from his position was replaced by another from his team. Or earlier when you had 10 players in attack.
Also how many players did play football for living?
I am deeply convinced that any pre 90s team would be demolished by even mid table Premier league club.

[ccllnply]

I disagree.

So you are wrong.

God, I really hate when people put this kind of thing in their posts Regardless, I shall try to persevere.

1. Maybe I am "wrong" because you are talking in a different context then me. I'm not talking about the combined squad value of the players, I'm talking about the value of the club as a whole. According to Forbes (a slightly more reliable source then transfermarkt.co.uk), Man Utd, Man City, Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool are worth over or just under $1 billion. Next comes Spurs all the way down at $600 million. Then Newcastle and West Ham come in at just over $300 million. That's just 8 teams out of 20 so you can imagine where the lowest priced teams go.

2. By lower clubs I meant the actual lower clubs. As in the Bournemouths, the Watfords. Teams who are probably valued at under £100 million, having just come up from the Championship. Newcastle is hardly a "lower club".

3. Even in your context, Chelsea's team value is over ten times that of Bournemouth's.

4. I honestly don't know what this has to do with anything:

Besides it's better for players who haven't reached their full potential to play in those clubs then top 5.

But Eden Hazard, Cristiano Ronaldo, Aaron Ramsey, Sergio Aguero and many others would all disagree. So can we stop with these tee-total, cover all statements please?

[Knight of Heaven]

When you talk utter bollocks expect derision.. This is the premier league thread, you don't support a PL team but come here to chat any way, which is fine until you start to throw around ignorant horse dung and admit you don't know what you're talking about.

So a quick history lesson on a manager in the premier league and his record as a premier league manager and achievements of his time as a premier league manager.

FA Premier League (3): 1997–98, 2001–02, 2003–04
FA Cup (6): 1997–98, 2001–02, 2002–03, 2004–05, 2013–14, 2014–15 - A record.

2004 season UNBEATEN - Not done in English football since Preston in 1889. Preston played 22 games that season. Arsenal did it with 49.

Oversaw and had a major influence on the move from Highbury and the building of the Emirates stadium. The stadium cost in the region of £450m + . Taking into account the redevelopment of the entire Holloway area surrounding the stadium. Much of the land around there was previously a dump (literally, a dump) with few shops/businesses and no social housing. The redevelopment created 1000's of new jobs in the area and added 100's of low rent flats and student accommodation.

Hasn't finished lower than 4th in 19 years, much of which he managed with considerably less money than those who finished above Arsenal and with the constant issue of having to sell big name players during the move from Highbury.

To say Wenger will be remembered as a Legend at Arsenal is an understatement.

What a load of crap. So because i dont support a English team specificaly, im not allowed to folow an amazing European league, as a fan of the game? Give me a break. I do the same with Spanish league and the italian. I tend to favor teams, instead of particular clubs in this leagues. Because there is only one club i realy favor, and its Porto.
You know what is truly embarrassing? you being so irrational like this. ( understandably football has this side, but still, get a ing grip will you?)

And btw i dont need you to patronize me, im well aware of the figure of Arsene Wenger. And while it is all great and dandy, i stil dont see what is so specialy briliant in the world stage ( we talkinga bout football here not bussiness, i woudl of tought, Sir Chips Keswick and Arsenal board would have the credit for these projects, not a football manager, wich function is to manage football). But whataver.
Its always the same old story.... give me a break. Most Portuguese clubs in 2004 ( for the Euro 2004) had their stadiums renewed, or built from scratch ( Porto included) During mourinho time in Porto as well....We had to buy cheap, very cheap. Plenty of those players that became legendary in that Porto team, came for free, or from smaller portuguese clubs. ( he did lauched some youngsters as well in Porto in his time)
And it isnt just stadiums as we all know, all of surrounded areas, services, roads and comercial areas etc. And lets not speak of what the Portuguese football clubs financial troubles, because of plenty they go hand in hand with the rest of the country economic context. Save for a few exceptions.

Look im not saying Wenger hasnt an impressive record, his historial speaks for itself. i just think he isnt that special. ( no pun intended lol ) And I think probably has to do with the changing of paradigm in the premier league over the years as well. The coming of biolionaires to buy english clubs etc. United and Arsenal werent the greatest competitors anymore for the premiership, and its harder to win when there is is more serious competitors arround.

To say Wenger will be remembered as a Legend at Arsenal is an understatement.

Never denied that ( in fact the only thing i refer to was that was premature to say what will happen to mourinho after this season, wich is a pretty reasonable and logic notion)
At anycase i was comparing wenger to the world stage.
And it is 2015 now. The context is different. and has been different for a while. This isnt the late 90s or the early 00s anymore.

Where clubs aim to be the best team in the country and just hope for success elsewhere, an atmosphere that led Wenger to be criticized for not winning a trophy for a few years despite being probably the most consistent PL team overall. It got to the point where it seemed as if people would have been happy if they didn't reach CL quarter-finals just so they could win a League Cup, which is ridiculous

yeah it isnt just a few years, it is more then a decade. No club has a manager that long regardless of sucess anyway. Well it is a rare thing.

If there were more people like Wenger in England then PL might actually have a better chance of putting it up to the European giants instead of constantly being underdogs.

Nonsense. Judging form Wenger track record that is.... they wil still be underdogs.... ( not that i thinbk they are actualy.... ) But when was last time Arsenal won an European title? This logic doesnt make any sense.

Atletico is the fourth most succesful team in Spain behind Athlethic, but given Bilbao's restrictions they can't be serious contenders anymore in the long run

Maybe but they did tear barca a new one recently.

[snuggans]

somebody stop City please.

nice debut for Pedro, welcome to the premier league, i guess Falcao did not impress that much.

[Petrucci]

Pedro was excellent, probably man of the match. Looks like he is the link we needed. Still we could try playing more games with 11 players. And that red was too harsh IMO. We missed some great chances, Willian, Hazard,Costa even Falcao. But overall most of guys had good game, appart from Matic and Fabregas they looked super clumsy today. City on fire.

[Gallus]

The red card was fair. Terry was the last man and pulled Rondon's arm, that's a red card. Chelsea did look a lot better yesterday, but Fabregas doesn't look comfortable as a holding mid anymore. I wouldn't be surprised if Oscar took his place.

[Petrucci]

Oscar as DM? That would be interesting.

[Knight of Heaven]

Oscar as DM? That would be interesting.

Not DM but rather CM i belive.

[Gatsby]

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Arsenal might be a bit worried but ultimately they did have a goal ruled out that was quite obviously onside, and they created lots of good chances in the 2nd half, against a very strong defensive performance.

Likewise, Liverpool should be very happy that they didn't collapse when they failed to make their 1st half dominance count. They defended extremely well: either sitting deep or pressing well, and had some good counterattacks. Hopefully today's performance shows the Brodge what a waste it is to play Hendo and Milner in the same 11.

A thrilling 0-0.

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[Gallus]

Oscar as DM? That would be interesting.

Well he is a better defender than Cesc so why not?

[Petrucci]

Well he is a better defender than Cesc so why not?

That's not entirely false. Would be interesting to see him at that position.
Liverpool Arsenal, great game, even though it was goalless.