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Thread: Etnicity of the Bulgars and the Huns

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    Magister Militum Flavius Aetius's Avatar Aetī Avēas!
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    Default Etnicity of the Bulgars and the Huns

    Adding the Bulgars would be pointless. The Bulgars of the future Khan Asparuch were a subject people under the Hepthaltites in Bactria at this time. They wouldn't even gain anything more than a role as peasants for another century after the game starts.

    If you're talking about the "Bulgars" like the Kutrigurs, Utigurs, etc. They're already in the game: they're called the Huns.

    EDIT:

    The Kutrigurs and Utigurs were created when Attila's two main sons (Dengzich and either Ernak or Ellak, can't remember which one) retreated East of the Carpathians into Wallachia and the Dniester region. Eventually both retreated past the Dniester north of the black sea where they set up the Utigur (30 Bulgars) and Kutrigur (7 Bulgars) kingdoms, just above the Saragurs (who had migrated into the region in 460) and Akatir Huns north of the Crimea. The Onogurs (10 Bulgars) took up residence between the Black sea and the Caspian, and the Sabirs were in the Derbent pass stretching north to the Volga.

    All of these groups were Huns, who were the original Oghur-speaking people. The Rouran or Kokturks (not sure which) drove the Avars (a splinter of the Hepthaltites) West in the 460's which forced most of the assimilated Oghur groups in the Hunnic realm west into Europe, while the Avars took up residence in Khazakstan. In the 550's the Kokturks drove the Avars into Europe as the Hepthaltite confederation began its decline and other Turkish peoples took up residence in Khazakstan.

    The Bulgars also migrated into the Pontic steppes at the time (being roughly 580 AD), starting the Kingdom of Old Bulgaria, which absorbed the collapsing Kutrigur/Utigur Hunnic states and incorporated it into its own confederation.

    The Onogur and Sabir Huns would go on to form the Khazars.
    Last edited by Magister Militum Flavius Aetius; July 03, 2015 at 08:30 AM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: IB2 IBFD II Developments

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius Antiochus Philopappos View Post
    I realise of course your limited to slots for factions, but would you perhaps consider splitting the Bulgar's into Kutrigurs and Utigurs; Slavs into Antes and Sklaveni?
    Yes. We will certainly look at this in much more depth before a finished mod is released. Thank You Gaius. Keep the discussion and ideas flowing

    Under the esteemed patronage of Ramon Gonzales y Garcia IB and IB2 Mod

  3. #3

    Default Re: IB2 IBFD II Developments

    Quote Originally Posted by Magister Militum Flavius Aetius View Post
    Adding the Bulgars would be pointless. The Bulgars of the future Khan Asparuch were a subject people under the Hepthaltites in Bactria at this time. They wouldn't even gain anything more than a role as peasants for another century after the game starts.

    If you're talking about the "Bulgars" like the Kutrigurs, Utigurs, etc. They're already in the game: they're called the Huns.

    EDIT:

    The Kutrigurs and Utigurs were created when Attila's two main sons (Dengzich and either Ernak or Ellak, can't remember which one) retreated East of the Carpathians into Wallachia and the Dniester region. Eventually both retreated past the Dniester north of the black sea where they set up the Utigur (30 Bulgars) and Kutrigur (7 Bulgars) kingdoms, just above the Saragurs (who had migrated into the region in 460) and Akatir Huns north of the Crimea. The Onogurs (10 Bulgars) took up residence between the Black sea and the Caspian, and the Sabirs were in the Derbent pass stretching north to the Volga.

    All of these groups were Huns, who were the original Oghur-speaking people. The Rouran or Kokturks (not sure which) drove the Avars (a splinter of the Hepthaltites) West in the 460's which forced most of the assimilated Oghur groups in the Hunnic realm west into Europe, while the Avars took up residence in Khazakstan. In the 550's the Kokturks drove the Avars into Europe as the Hepthaltite confederation began its decline and other Turkish peoples took up residence in Khazakstan.

    The Bulgars also migrated into the Pontic steppes at the time (being roughly 580 AD), starting the Kingdom of Old Bulgaria, which absorbed the collapsing Kutrigur/Utigur Hunnic states and incorporated it into its own confederation.

    The Onogur and Sabir Huns would go on to form the Khazars.
    Thread created. Hunnophobic perception from Europe and Asia? possibly It does need fresh eyes. Its an interesting debate but I hope this can be done without the topic degenerating. It would require a new thread for its off topic
    Last edited by Riothamus; July 04, 2015 at 09:18 AM.

    Under the esteemed patronage of Ramon Gonzales y Garcia IB and IB2 Mod

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    Basileos Antiokhos Euergetes's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: IB2 IBFD II Developments

    Ellac, eldest son of Attila, and the Akatziri Huns (Priscus.fr 41) according to Priscus were defeated by Saragurs (an Oghur tribe) in 463. The evidence I have read, ends up something like the results Aetius has offered. Only the means of getting there is different. The tribes in question (Bulgar/Hun) were a fresh influx from the Steppe, that were eventually brought together under the leadership of Attila's eldest son. So we have new Hunnic/ Bulgar tribes moving in off the Steppe during the fifth century, not all friendly to each other by any imagination.

  5. #5

    Default Etnicity of the Bulgars and the Huns

    Posts moved to this thread. Great topic but please respect others opinions otherwise posts will not be tolerated. Have Fun
    Last edited by Riothamus; July 03, 2015 at 09:53 AM.

    Under the esteemed patronage of Ramon Gonzales y Garcia IB and IB2 Mod

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Etnicity of the Bulgars and the Huns

    Ellac, eldest son of Attila, and the Akatziri Huns (Priscus.fr 41) according to Priscus were defeated by Saragurs (an Oghur tribe) in 463.
    The Akatir Huns would regain their independence by the late 5th Century: Steppe politics are rather superfluous. Hyun Jin Kim has a whole chapter on the influx of the "Bulgars" from the Steppes. But these people were simply more Hunnic tribes.

    Bulgar is a generic term in Old Oghuz Turkish and Even Chuvash, meaning "Mixed People" more or less. The exact ethnicity of the Huns is still somewhat open for debate, but it's been well established by Bona, Fleuriot, and Kim that the Huns were the successors to the Xiongnu, and that when they came out of the Altai Mountains and absorbed the Dingling/Tingling people who were dominating the steppes of East Khazakstan in the 2nd/3rd Century AD, they formed the Huna that would migrate into Europe. The Kidarites (Red Huns) and Kara Huna would then migrate into Iran and Europe respectively, and the Yueban (Weak Huns) would form from the ashes of Iranic Kangju and conquer the Alanic Wusun and dominate the Tarim Basin.

    These peoples were Oghur-Dialect Altai, just like the Old Bulgars and the Hepthaltites, Avars, and Rouran. The Bulgars that settled in Thracia would form out of the "Oghur Bulgars" (aka the Hunnic Superculture). For those that stayed behind, some would be absorbed temporarily by the Kokturks and most would later form the Khazars. The modern Chuvash are believed to be partially descended from the Sabir Huns.

    Although I don't agree on the various nationalist perspectives that Magyars=Huns (far from it although Finno-Ugric peoples certainly may have been in the Hunnic confederation) and that Asparuch was descended from Attila (from a rather shoddy chronology at best full of corrupted names), it is rather obvious that Huns formed part of Old Bulgaria.

    It would be pointless to create a "Kutrigur" and "Utigur" faction since both of those came out of Attila's empire. However, the Saragurs, Onogurs, or Sabirs are very possible choices. I highly recommend the Sabirs if you choose any of those three for a second faction of Huns.
    Last edited by Magister Militum Flavius Aetius; July 03, 2015 at 12:49 PM.

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    Basileos Antiokhos Euergetes's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Etnicity of the Bulgars and the Huns

    I fully understand what your saying, we are not disagreeing on Hunnic 'identity' for these various groups. Nevertheless it my understanding that these Oghur Hunnic groups had migrated into the area later. Some to be absorbed by a reinvigorated Hunnic 'confederation/empire' under Attila's son and his successors, others forced into other regions or migrated into different regions.
    From a game play prospective, if we are to assume that the Huns (Attila's) are either going to create an empire or going to be beaten, bit of both? A fresh influx of Hunnic nomads on the Danube at around the time of the battle of Nadeo would make for an additional area of interest. Not for getting of course Sklaveni, Gepids etc

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    Default Re: Etnicity of the Bulgars and the Huns

    In a nutshell we would have two factions: Attila's Huns and the Oghur Huns.

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