Charleston Church Shooting - Racism Inspired Murders

[chilon]

Timeline of the shooting:
http://www.wcnc.com/story/news/local...ting/28941619/

Profile of the shooter:
http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/19/us/cha...oting-suspect/

Obama's comments on the shooting:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...harleston-s-c/

Republican Candidates Reaction (or lack of) to the shooting:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...ston-shooting/

2 Republicans calling the shooting terrorism:
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-...621-story.html

Republicans reaffirm gun rights after the shooting:
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2...hurch-shooting

Accusations of Shameful Liberal Exploitation of the shooting:
http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...ama-race-crime

A History of Race Related Attacks in America:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/18/ma...acks.html?_r=0

Dylan Roof, 4Chan and the New Online Racism:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...ne-racism.html

[nein]

You should see the crime statistics for racially motivated crimes perpetuated by blacks on whites in America, a real eye opener. It gets better, African american crime rates against other Africans is so massive it dwarfs every other crime rate combined.

[chilon]

You should see the crime statistics for racially motivated crimes perpetuated by blacks on whites in America, a real eye opener. It gets better, African american crime rates against other Africans is so massive it dwarfs every other crime rate combined.

Can you post links to these statistics? It would be nice to have a repository of useful data.

[snuggans]

Since June 21, fires have been reported at six Southern churches that serve mostly African-American congregations.

pretty good article that doesn't jump to conclusions and just lists facts and what investigators have said. still, this is pretty sketchy. the most recent one is said to have been accidental, the FBI is investigating lightning

[Roma_Victrix]

This thread basically confirms everything we already knew, doesn't it?

Can you post links to these statistics? It would be nice to have a repository of useful data.

He is right that the amount of black-on-white murder (black offender, white victim) is higher than white-on-black murder (white offender, black victim), but the difference is not astronomical. He's also right that the vast majority of black victims were killed by black offenders, but he fails to mention that the vast majority of white victims of murder were killed by white offenders as well. No big surprise there.

Here's the US data for 2012:

Expanded Homicide Data Table 6

Since June 21, fires have been reported at six Southern churches that serve mostly African-American congregations.

pretty good article that doesn't jump to conclusions and just lists facts and what investigators have said. still, this is pretty sketchy. the most recent one is said to have been accidental, the FBI is investigating lightning

No way that all of them are just coincidence, considering the burning of black churches in the past plus the infamous bombing of one in Burmingham back in the 60s.

[mongrel]

You should see the crime statistics for racially motivated crimes perpetuated by blacks on whites in America, a real eye opener. It gets better, African american crime rates against other Africans is so massive it dwarfs every other crime rate combined.

This is the kind of bollocks that radicalized Roof and led him to murder.

9 people were killed in cold blood. That is the issue, stop making excuses for the racist git.

[Phier]

Accusations of Shameful Liberal Exploitation of the shooting:

http://www.breitbart.com/video/2015/...r-sc-shooting/

Yea they'd never do things like that.

[Symphony]

You should see the crime statistics for racially motivated crimes perpetuated by blacks on whites in America, a real eye opener. It gets better, African american crime rates against other Africans is so massive it dwarfs every other crime rate combined.

I missed the part where only the statistically most relevant crimes were shameful and worthy of discussion. I also missed the part where this is somehow a zero-sum game and discussion of a white-on-black murder precludes the others from existing.

White-on-black, black-on-white, white-on-white, black-on-black...they're all a pretty equally deal, wouldn't you agree?

[Cope]

This is the kind of bollocks that radicalized Roof and led him to murder.

9 people were killed in cold blood. That is the issue, stop making excuses for the racist git.

First of all, I'd like to say that I'm shocked by these murders and what they represent both in terms of racism and gun crime in the US.

However, I'm not sure its entirely fair to class these statistics as "radicalized bollocks". It is a fact that black on white crime is greater than white on black crime. It is a fact that blacks commit more crimes against other blacks than they do against whites. It is a fact that whites commit more crimes against whites than they do against blacks. Is bringing it up such statistics at this time insensitive? In some ways yes, in some ways no.

Simply highlighting that the Dylan Roof case is abnormal within the spectrum of crime statistics is not making excuses for the accused. If anything it's designed to distance white people as a group from this sort of crime and from Roof, as if to say "hey, the vast, vast majority of us aren't racist murderers, and in fact racially motivated crimes in US constitute a very small proportion of overall crimes". I think it's fairly natural that when someone commits such a vile act in the name of an entire group, said group will immediately want to dispel any notion that they were somehow involved. It's normal that white folks should want to definitively point out that Roof does not reflect their values in any way whatsoever.

The reaction to the Roof case, in some quarters, has been fairly similar to the reaction we're attuned to whenever an Islamic extremist commits a major act of terror on "Western soil". The only difference is that the left-wing typically comes out in force to correctly remind the world that the vast, vast majority of Muslims aren't blood thirsty terrorists after an extremist attack, whilst they do no such thing in the defense of "whites" after an horrific attack on the black community by a white man. Instead what we get is these meaningless campaigns to remove the Confederate flag from a War memorial and people (mostly white people it is worth noting) deliberately trying to fan the flames of racial injustice in order to justify their view that whites are an oppressive class of overlords.

[Elfdude]

I didn't know that legitimate statistics could be classified as "radicalized bollocks". It is a fact that black on white crime is greater than white on black crime. It is a fact that blacks commit more crimes against other blacks than they do against whites. It is a fact that whites commit more crimes against whites than they do against blacks.

You can't be more wrong because the legitimate statistics are radicalized, first off what he said in many ways was wrong or designed to advance a position which would be wrong to advance with that sort of information. Most crime is segregated that is true. Now your second claim that blacks commit more crimes on whites is patently false. While in terms of shear numbers you're correct 62,500 white on black crimes, vs 320,000 black on white crimes it's important to consider the proportion of individuals they make up in the population. Of racially motivated crimes, white on black crimes makes up 20%. It's important to note that black people make up ~12-13% of the population. This means when we control for distribution of people, or the rate at which a black person encounters a white person and the rates at which a white person encounters a black person black people actually kill white people (and in total engage in black on white crime) far less than the natural distribution of population should lead them to do so by random chance. This means that black people are significantly less likely to kill a white person on an individual basis than a white person is to kill a black person. Now if we control for the rate of offense (black people in general seem to offend slightly more) this rate drops even further. This means black people actually go out of their way (a pretty significant thing to do when killing is on your mind) not to kill white people. Given the reaction it is not hard to see why they do this.

Now if we go one step further let's consider 2010, 447 white on black murders and 218 black on white murders. First let's consider that of the total rate of white murder, black on white murder makes up .0002% of total white murders. This is 2 ten-thousandths of a percent or 1 white person murdered every year per 500,000 white people. Interestingly you may notice that the 447 is proportionately very high and as a percentage of the black population it very much is. Roughly put there is 2.75 blacks killed by whites for every 500,000 people.

Simply highlighting that the Dylan Roof case is abnormal within the spectrum of crime statistics is not making excuses for the accused.

Hahaha, so in this instance we're expected to restrain ourselves, that's funny because when it comes to media and reporting, even the extremely liberal media can't help but focus on black on white crime over white on black.

If anything it's designed to distance white people as a group from this sort of crime and from Roof, as if to say "hey, the vast, vast majority of us aren't racist murderers, and in fact racially motivated crimes in US constitute a very small proportion of overall crimes".

SOOO, I have to say since it's clear your perception is not RACIALLY motivated. Where is your outcry for restraint for every black on white crime that has been reported in the last year? Even with the dylan side of the issue black on white crime still gets more time on the airwaves despite white on black crime being 275% more common. Oh, you mean to tell me you've never tried to defend black people being unfairly focused upon as objects of criminality? Could it be that you only care now because you are in fact white? Jeez, kind of sucks being on the other side for a change. What's sad is that rather than feeling empathy for an overly oppressed group you're attempting to dehumanize them. Do you really understand what racism even is?

The reaction to the Roof case, in some quarters, has been fairly similar to the reaction we're attuned to whenever an Islamic extremist commits a major act of terror on "Western soil".

What? Howso? Not even close. Even in the most liberal media that's not true. In fact there was a big issue surrounding 9/11 that NO media outlet whatsoever would risk diminishing the impact of 9/11 by urging restraint. It's only relatively recently become acceptable for the majority of the public to dissociate islam from 9/11. However the funny thing here is that since 9/11 more than twice the number of white people have died from domestic terrorism (white supremacists coming in first along with antigovernment anarchists in second) than al qaeda or the taliban could have hoped for. Which is to say, honestly we should be covering domestic terrorism like this a lot more than we do.

The only difference is that the left-wing typically comes out in force to correctly remind the world that the vast, vast majority of Muslims aren't blood thirsty terrorists after an extremist attack, whilst they do no such thing in the defense of "whites" after an horrific attack on the black community by a white man.

No, not really even true. Even amongst democrats islam has a bad reputation. This requires some qualifiers here because I would never say all muslims are bad. However Islam does has horrible laws (as does christianity), and Islam has a lot of extremists (as does christianity). The problem is that Islamic control of the state is far more common that Christian control of the state. Religion combined with a state which prevents the moderating influences we have in the west leads to many problems in the middle east.

Instead what we get is these meaningless campaigns to remove the Confederate flag from a War memorial and people (mostly white people it is worth noting) deliberately trying to fan the flames of racial injustice in order to justify their view that whites are an oppressive class of overlords.

So a confederate symbol of independence spawned from refusal to grant black people rights is a meaningless campaign? For the record remove the confederate flag is not just a campaign at a memorial but with regards to all state agencies. You realize that this symbol of black slavery (literally) has flown publically in many states in their capital buildings, in their courts and everywhere in between. The reaction to remove these is admission of the white majority of the true intent and abhorent nature of that intent that the flags symbolizes. The nation is gradually becoming more and more aware of the effect that subtle discrimination (such as placing a flag which supported the slavery of blacks in your capital building) has on the population in general. For example, harvard only detects a .050 second delay when it comes to determining whether a white individual is safer than a black or not however it's that exact difference in spending time asking a question that leads to the problems we see. Furthermore you should realize that it's a good thing that white people are talking about this. The black population makes up 12% of the population. In what world do you believe that without white support any changes are possible?

Overall your post couldn't make you look less informed about race, maybe you should entertain the possibility that your statements are being made by your bias and not reality?

[Heathen Hammer]

Spree shooters had different political or social views, but what is often overlooked by mass media is that most of them had mental disorders and were actively consuming various mind-altering medication.

[mongrel]

I didn't know that legitimate statistics could be classified as "radicalized bollocks". It is a fact that black on white crime is greater than white on black crime. It is a fact that blacks commit more crimes against other blacks than they do against whites. It is a fact that whites commit more crimes against whites than they do against blacks.

Simply highlighting that the Dylan Roof case is abnormal within the spectrum of crime statistics is not making excuses for the accused. If anything it's designed to distance white people as a group from this sort of crime and from Roof, as if to say "hey, the vast, vast majority of us aren't racist murderers, and in fact racially motivated crimes in US constitute a very small proportion of overall crimes".

The reaction to the Roof case, in some quarters, has been fairly similar to the reaction we're attuned to whenever an Islamic extremist commits a major act of terror on "Western soil". The only difference is that the left-wing typically comes out in force to correctly remind the world that the vast, vast majority of Muslims aren't blood thirsty terrorists after an extremist attack, whilst they do no such thing in the defense of "whites" after an horrific attack on the black community by a white man. Instead what we get is these meaningless campaigns to remove the Confederate flag from a War memorial and people (mostly white people it is worth noting) deliberately trying to fan the flames of racial injustice in order to justify their view that whites are an oppressive class of overlords.

A fail of a post.

Roof himself said reading such pap led him to murder. Are you calling him a liar?
It is bollocks because these 9 American victims were not criminals. They indeed the polar opposite of them.What part of this have you missed? The left have nothing to do with the killing, we know who brainwashed Roof. The flag issue is also irrelevant as it lets the real influences, the Committee of Concerned Citizens and other dodgy groups off scot-free(see comments in that thread). Stop apologizing for these racist jokers I say.

Next.....

[Cope]

You can't be more wrong because the legitimate statistics are radicalized, first off what he said in many ways was wrong or designed to advance a position which would be wrong to advance with that sort of information. Most crime is segregated that is true.

I can't be more wrong, but it is true that most crime is racially segregated. Ok.

Now your second claim that blacks commit more crimes on whites is patently false. While in terms of shear numbers you're correct

So what I said was patently false, whilst being correct. Nice job.

62,500 white on black crimes, vs 320,000 black on white crimes it's important to consider the proportion of individuals they make up in the population.

Yeah, it is. Did it ever cross your mind that whilst blacks only constitute 12-13% of the population, whites do not occupy the remaining 87%? If we divide the raw number of bowc by the number of wonbc, we get, 320,000 / 62,500 = 5.12. That means that in sheer numbers (assuming your statistics are correct), bowc outweighs wobc by 5.12 times. If we then multiply 12.5 (rough percentage value of black population) by that value (5.12) then we get 64. Percentage of the US population that is classed as white? 63.7. Using this data we can say that the amount of wonbc and bonwc is roughly proportionate to the racial demographics of the US.

Hahaha, so in this instance we're expected to restrain ourselves, that's funny because when it comes to media and reporting, even the extremely liberal media can't help but focus on black on white crime over white on black.

Not in this instance, in all instances.

SOOO, I have to say since it's clear your perception is not RACIALLY motivated.

Except it isn't, you just want it it to be. The fact I'm using the Roof massacre as a platform for arguing that his alleged actions are not representative of white America does not mean that my comments are racially motivated. In fact, the opposite is true.

Where is your outcry for restraint for every black on white crime that has been reported in the last year? Even with the dylan side of the issue black on white crime still gets more time on the airwaves despite white on black crime being 275% more common.

First, I've been a vocal opponent of the US justice system which imprisons blacks six times more frequently than whites despite the fact that blacks do not commit six times as much crime as whites, or anywhere even near. Secondly, I've not noticed any black on white crime in years which has attracted as much media attention as the Roof case, the Walter Scott case or the Travon Martin trial. If you could provide an example, that would be welcome. Thirdly, 275% more common than what?

Oh, you mean to tell me you've never tried to defend black people being unfairly focused upon as objects of criminality?

I think you don't understand how sarcasm works.

Could it be that you only care now because you are in fact white? Jeez, kind of sucks being on the other side for a change. What's sad is that rather than feeling empathy for an overly oppressed group you're attempting to dehumanize them. Do you really understand what racism even is?

Or it could be that I care all the time, but the topic of this thread is a specific case. As it so happens, I was fairly vocal about the abhorrent injustice involved in the of Slager and Pantaleo cases, though I have a dislike of those who seek to view the world through a racial lens. Thus, despite the fact that the preliminary evidence seems to strongly suggest that Roof is a racist murderer, I believe his behavior is totally unrepresentative of American society at large. In the same way, I will always argue that Islamic extremists are not representative of Muslim society.

What? Howso? Not even close. Even in the most liberal media that's not true. In fact there was a big issue surrounding 9/11 that NO media outlet whatsoever would risk diminishing the impact of 9/11 by urging restraint.

9/11 was 14 years ago, times have changed. Even so, and as I recall, there were literally millions of people who protested against the Iraq War before it even commenced because they recognized the folly in what essentially amounted to a racially motivated assault on a Middle Eastern country which acted as a reaction to the destruction of the towers.

It's only relatively recently become acceptable for the majority of the public to dissociate islam from 9/11.

No it hasn't. Sensible, reasonable people have always known that the 9/11 murderers were not representative of the vast majority of Muslims. However, just like the Roof case, it's proven very difficult for people to use 9/11 as a platform for pointing out that one abhorrent act by certain individuals should not define an entire group, because, apparently, most people are reactionary.

However the funny thing here is that since 9/11 more than twice the number of white people have died from domestic terrorism (white supremacists coming in first along with antigovernment anarchists in second) than al qaeda or the taliban could have hoped for. Which is to say, honestly we should be covering domestic terrorism like this a lot more than we do.

This is really the only important point. Terrorism was and has been hyped up by the media since 9/11.

No, not really even true. Even amongst democrats islam has a bad reputation. This requires some qualifiers here because I would never say all muslims are bad. However Islam does has horrible laws (as does christianity), and Islam has a lot of extremists (as does christianity). The problem is that Islamic control of the state is far more common that Christian control of the state. Religion combined with a state which prevents the moderating influences we have in the west leads to many problems in the middle east.

The US state is controlled by Christians.

So a confederate symbol of independence spawned from refusal to grant black people rights is a meaningless campaign? For the record remove the confederate flag is not just a campaign at a memorial but with regards to all state agencies. You realize that this symbol of black slavery (literally) has flown publically in many states in their capital buildings, in their courts and everywhere in between. The reaction to remove these is admission of the white majority of the true intent and abhorent nature of that intent that the flags symbolizes. The nation is gradually becoming more and more aware of the effect that subtle discrimination (such as placing a flag which supported the slavery of blacks in your capital building) has on the population in general. For example, harvard only detects a .050 second delay when it comes to determining whether a white individual is safer than a black or not however it's that exact difference in spending time asking a question that leads to the problems we see. Furthermore you should realize that it's a good thing that white people are talking about this. The black population makes up 12% of the population. In what world do you believe that without white support any changes are possible?

In the scheme of racism, it is meaningless. A white man brutally murders 9 innocent people in church, and America suddenly has an epiphany that the Confederate Flag represents evil? The two cases are almost totally detached from one another. Evil people have always hijacked symbols for their own ends. In the 21st century, the Confederate Flag had become an historic symbol that reflected Southern Pride and defiance, just like the Union Jack has become a symbol of freedom and democracy, despite the fact that it too once represented international subjugation on a scale unimaginable. That is, unless you think Lyrnrd Skynrd performing a concert against a confederate backdrop in front of thousands of cheering fans was a show of racism?

Overall your post couldn't make you look less informed about race, maybe you should entertain the possibility that your statements are being made by your bias and not reality?

I could say the same to you.

A fail of a post.

Roof himself said reading such pap led him to murder. Are you calling him a liar?

The fact that Roof decided, in his racial insanity, that because blacks have killed more whites than vice versa in the 21st century he would go and murder a bunch of people does not change the fact that the statistics are correct.

It is bollocks because these 9 American victims were not criminals.

This is fairly incoherent. You accused the statistics of being "bollocks". That has nothing to do with victims not being criminals. Again the fact that Roof decided that he would equate the statistics with all black people being criminals does not make the assertion that more blacks killed whites than vice versa untrue.

They indeed the polar opposite of them.

Yes, we can all agree that they were innocent.

What part of this have you missed? The left have nothing to do with the killing, we know who brainwashed Roof.

That's nice, I never said or implied that the left had anything to do with the murders. I merely pointed out that their reaction to white on black crime is inconsistent with their reaction to Muslim on American crime.

The flag issue is also irrelevant as it lets the real influences, the Committee of Concerned Citizens and other dodgy groups off scot-free(see comments in that thread).

Agreed.

Stop apologizing for these racist jokers I say.

Who's apologizing for them?

Next.....

Next...

[tgoodenow]

What exactly is OP proposing for discussion in this thread? First post doesn't make an argument or statements really, just a bunch of links.

[Elfdude]

I can't be more wrong, but it is true that most crime is racially segregated. Ok.

Because that was the point of your post? I was attacking the rest of it not that part. In fact I said as much.

So what I said was patently false, whilst being correct. Nice job.

Yes because what someone wants to know when one says black on white crime is greater than white on black crime.

Yeah, it is. Did it ever cross your mind that whilst blacks only constitute 12-13% of the population, whites do not occupy the remaining 87%? If we divide the raw number of bowc by the number of wonbc, we get, 320,000 / 62,500 = 5.12. That means that in sheer numbers (assuming your statistics are correct), bowc outweighs wobc by 5.12 times. If we then multiply 12.5 (rough percentage value of black population) by that value (5.12) then we get 64. Percentage of the US population that is classed as white? 63.7. Using this data we can say that the amount of wonbc and bonwc is roughly proportionate to the racial demographics of the US.

Actually you missed a step. Now you have to use the appropriate number of 77.7% not this imaginary 64% where'd you get that btw? I got mine from the U.S census bureau. So that means black crime on white crime is in proprotion to a group that is about 64% of the population, 64.5ish%. That is ~17% fewer crimes proportional to the population. This is compared to white on black crime that is again 12.6% total black, 64,500 White on Black crimes if you want to divide the total percentage of whites by 5.12 you get 15.2% which means white people commit crimes on black people 17% greater than they deserve!? ZOMG even using your method you get roughly the same result?! You mean I was right? Oh jeez that's what you get for not checking numbers I guess.

Not in this instance, in all instances.

What? That doesn't even make sense. I said the media can't help but focus on black on white crime and you said not in this instance (which means dylans instance) but then you say in all instances implying that is in fact true (at least most of the time). If that is in fact true (at least most of the time) your assertion that this is recieving undo media attention should be lesser than your assertion that black on white crime recieves lesser media attention, but when was the last time you fought for media attention to more appropriately reflect the reality of crime statistics? Oh you mean that you've only done this because in this case it's your race at the chopping block? You do realize what racism is right?

Except it isn't, you just want it it to be. The fact I'm using the Roof massacre as a platform for arguing that his alleged actions are not representative of white America does not mean that my comments are racially motivated. In fact, the opposite is true.

I mean you can say that and I might even believe that is the intent in your head but I'm quite literally asserting your actions (your post in this thread) are accomplishing quite the opposite. It's hard to appreciate the idea your comments aren't racially motivated when you've never spoken up before about black on white crime being over reported when it is vastly over reported. So your assertion that it's just about the media attention this is recieving seems implausible. This leaves me with the only conclusion that you feel personally slighted by the feeling that white people overall are more racist than anyone else and don't want to believe that it is true. For you that might be true, unfortunately you caged it in statistical reality and aligned yourself with "white" as a group. That was silly. Furthermore you must realize the true extent of the white privilege you bring into this conversation. From your birth to your posting on the internet we can see major departures between what you had and appreciated as normal vs what the average Person of Color appreciates as normal. It's natural that you feel like you didn't approve of this, that this is just the product of your hard effort, but the truth of the matter is you have white privilege. I have white privilege. 77.7% of America has white privilege in that they can expect to see 7 or 8 white people in every group of 10. That's an enormous privilege. A white felon has a better chance at being hired than a non fellon for the same job according to the FBI, Bureau of Justice and the U.S Census Bureau. That's something you should take into account with regards to your reactions here. Instead you're charging that white people are being unfairly pegged when, relative to every other racial group, they've only begun to be pegged in the correct way? It's hilarious to assert that's not about being white. It so is and I totally understand it, I just am not going to entertain the impulse to object when fact tells me that relative to my beliefs that over-reporting crime is an issue it's important that the media stops painting blacks as the criminal and splashing water on the white people sort of does that. Worst several very questionable characters have gotten off when historically people anywhere close to a black on white crime have been brought into the issue. It's clear that racially biased practices are happening in front of your eyes. Then you have to go and assert some bull about the confederate flag being unrelated. It's terribly wrong and it's time you stopped spouting arguments which support continued marginalizations of the racial gap in our country. It's kind of that simple.

First, I've been a vocal opponent of the US justice system which imprisons blacks six times more frequently than whites despite the fact that blacks do not commit six times as much crime as whites, or anywhere even near. Secondly, I've not noticed any black on white crime in years which has attracted as much media attention as the Roof case, the Walter Scott case or the Travon Martin trial. If you could provide an example, that would be welcome. Thirdly, 275% more common than what?

Black on white crime when we represent it in the population of murders whites face per year accounts for 1 death from black on white violence per 500,000 whites. White on black crime when we represent it in the population of murders blacks face per year accounts for 2.75 deaths from white of black violence per 500,000 black people. That is 275%. As for a report, here's a nice statistical report with a breakdown using numbers rather than catchy headlines: http://mediamatters.org/research/201...-contin/202553

I think you don't understand how sarcasm works.

How was that sarcasm?

Or it could be that I care all the time, but the topic of this thread is a specific case. As it so happens, I was fairly vocal about the abhorrent injustice involved in the of Slager and Pantaleo cases, though I have a dislike of those who seek to view the world through a racial lens. Thus, despite the fact that the preliminary evidence seems to strongly suggest that Roof is a racist murderer, I believe his behavior is totally unrepresentative of American society at large. In the same way, I will always argue that Islamic extremists are not representative of Muslim society.

Which is a moot point to the fact that relative to any coverage whatsoever the media paints black people as the perpetrators and white people as the victims? Which is a moot point to the fact that in reality there is a very real race issue within our society? Which is a moot point to the fact that your argument sorta diminishes black people's victimization and marginalization and the inherent bias they face in every institution within our society? All because you want to believe that you being white doesn't make you racist. As I explained with white privilege you have power, and with power you have responsibility. You know it's fair for everyone to have power regardless of their race? Then empower black people by admitting to their struggles which are real and totally unfair.

9/11 was 14 years ago, times have changed. Even so, and as I recall, there were literally millions of people who protested against the Iraq War before it even commenced because they recognized the folly in what essentially amounted to a racially motivated assault on a Middle Eastern country which acted as a reaction to the destruction of the towers.

Correct, and who protested afghanistan? Exactly.

No it hasn't. Sensible, reasonable people have always known that the 9/11 murderers were not representative of the vast majority of Muslims. However, just like the Roof case, it's proven very difficult for people to use 9/11 as a platform for pointing out that one abhorrent act by certain individuals should not define an entire group, because, apparently, most people are reactionary.

But you're not, or at least you weren't merely pointing that out. Own up to the effects of your words.

This is really the only important point. Terrorism was and has been hyped up by the media since 9/11.

You still don't hear about the majority of those murders. Most of the time if they're reported on at all the media fails to mention they killed people in racially motivated crimes where they almost never forget that detail the other way around (even when it's not true).

The US state is controlled by Christians.

Not really. Christianity does have major influence, the fact that an atheist is below a criminal in terms of who the public would vote for in a presidental campaign says something about christianity's influence. The mediating influence however is our secular state. Yes some of that secularism has been eroded by living in a dominantly christian nation for so long but time is spelling the doom for christianity long before it can exert direct legislative influence preventing it's inevitable decay. More than likely more and more secular law suits will win in a growingly irreligious population. Essentially speaking, the separation of church of state lasted long enough that the natural progression of science has spelled the doom for christianity before we can become a christian theocracy. Although I won't deny that it will continue to exert populist influence politically for some time.

In the scheme of racism, it is meaningless.

How the hell do you figure? In direct terms of racism and presentation of it within the media it's exactly meaningful.

A white man brutally murders 9 innocent people in church, and America suddenly has an epiphany that the Confederate Flag represents evil?

Yes. Because 9 innocent people were murdered in a racially motivated moment the public was sensitive (what we could call politicized) about the issue of race. This made the issue of the confederate flag suddenly very very politically unfriendly whereas it had always maintained a small majority. This means that the issue of race, it's representation in the media, and the reaction to overt symbols of racial oppression are directly linked.

The two cases are almost totally detached from one another. Evil people have always hijacked symbols for their own ends. In the 21st century, the Confederate Flag had become an historic symbol that reflected Southern Pride and defiance, just like the Union Jack has become a symbol of freedom and democracy, despite the fact that it too once represented international subjugation on a scale unimaginable.

Except that exact subjugation is the source of the issues we're finally tackling today. I imagine many other countries have symbols that they would rather not bring back. I mean we understand immediately that the holocaust is an issue but the swastica has also become a symbol of these supposed southern pride and defiance. Which means the reality of the defiance and the meaning is hopelessly conflated with the issue of race. You can't tell me that many are overtly forward about their white supremacist views which is exactly why they use them. In a existence where that sort of belief is still prevelant why would anyone be ok with being associated with that? Most people honestly aren't but this issue combined with continuous major racial issues that've been happening and only finally recieving any sort of representation in the media despite the fact that issues like this have happened for decades. Despite recognizing this is the best for racial equity it's ever been understanding the reality of the divide that still exists for equity the fact that it's not significantly differently represented is frustrating because maybe more people would've realized this years ago.

That is, unless you think Lyrnrd Skynrd performing a concert against a confederate backdrop in front of thousands of cheering fans was a show of racism?

That's exactly why he stopped using it in 2012 isn't it?

I could say the same to you.

You definitely could, the difference would be the truth inherent in that statement.

[Condottiere 40K]

11153
While all murders are disturbing, what differentiates this beyond the criminally motivated ones, is that it is a mass shooting, in a church, motivated by a racially based extremist ideology.11215

[Phier]

11153
While all murders are disturbing, what differentiates this beyond the criminally motivated ones, is that it is a mass shooting, in a church, motivated by a racially based extremist ideology.11215

I find it less disturbing. Society is going to have some crazies, and crazies will do what crazies do. A crazy shooting spree speaks more about preventative mental health care than anything else.

Disturbing would be to find out there was a network, grooming said crazies, arming them, and then setting them to do the same.

Being killed in a Church is no different than being killed at an ATM to the dead person and their family.

[athanaric]

I find it less disturbing. Society is going to have some crazies, and crazies will do what crazies do. A crazy shooting spree speaks more about preventative mental health care than anything else.

Disturbing would be to find out there was a network, grooming said crazies, arming them, and then setting them to do the same.

Being killed in a Church is no different than being killed at an ATM to the dead person and their family.

True, but you could argue that people in a church or a similarly semi-private environment (as opposed to a public space or something like that) have let their guard down and are thus easier targets. Which in turn would highlight the malice of the killer.

[mongrel]

The fact that Roof decided, in his racial insanity, that because blacks have killed more whites than vice versa in the 21st century he would go and murder a bunch of people does not change the fact that the statistics are correct. ...

You are not seriously suggesting that the rantings of the CCC are correct?[/QUOTE]

This is fairly incoherent. You accused the statistics of being "bollocks". That has nothing to do with victims not being criminals. Again the fact that Roof decided that he would equate the statistics with all black people being criminals does not make the assertion that more blacks killed whites than vice versa untrue.

As presented they are indeed bollocks

That's nice, I never said or implied that the left had anything to do with the murders. I merely pointed out that their reaction to white on black crime is inconsistent with their reaction to Muslim on American crime.

Why did you mention "the left" at all? Shouldn't the spotlight be on the far-right?

[Hanny]

This means when we control for distribution of people, or the rate at which a black person encounters a white PERSON and the rates at which a white person encounters a black person black people actually kill white people (and in total engage in black on white crime) far less than the natural distribution of population should lead them to do so by random chance. This means that black people are significantly less likely to kill a white person on an individual basis than a white person is to kill a black person.

Your claim above based on the FBI and Census data.




Source: U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, “Crime in the United States, Arrests,” September 2010


Black
4,801
White
4,741


9452 incendece of the crime, evenly distributed between black and white, its the number of people and by race who commit the crime "or the rate at which a black person encounters a white PERSON and the rates at which a white person encounters a black person black people actually kill white people (and in total engage in black on white crime)"


You divided by a number that do not commit the crime, and got the wrong answer to the question.

White on black crime when we represent it in the population of murders blacks face per year ACCOUNTS for 2.75 deaths from white of black violence per 500,000 black people. That is 275%. As for a report, here's a nice statistical report with a breakdown using numbers rather than catchy headlines: http://mediamatters.org/research/201...-contin/202553

Thats a report showing US media covers more black murdr stories than white in NYC, nothing more that that, it does not support your math, it uses NYC where 98% of gun assualts are commited by Blacks.

Interestingly you may notice that the 447 is proportionately very high and as a percentage of the black population it very much is. Roughly put there is 2.75 blacks killed by whites for every 500,000 people.

It is indeed of intrest that Blacks commit 0.012332607 murders as % of the black population while whites commit 0.002120747 as a % of the white poulation.


It also intersting that 13% of the population ( Blacks) commit 50% of the crime of murder

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...ender_2013.xls

How represenative is the shooting of murder in the USA?, see above table