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Thread: Do You Like Discussing With Foreigners the History of Your Country/People?

  1. #41

    Default Re: Do You Like Discussing With Foreigners the History of Your Country/People?

    @Iskar

    As you talked about misconception in history, I was wondering.
    You are aware that this tale;

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    I wanted to try and write the history of my home city in a similarly epic fashion, but alas, when the Great Corsican attacked the majestic Free and Imperial City of Cologne, all the city guards on the walls did, was shouting down: "Don't shoot, don't you see there's people up here?!"
    is actually real German propaganda of the late 19th century, maybe even younger?

  2. #42
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    Default Re: Do You Like Discussing With Foreigners the History of Your Country/People?

    Well, I know it as a funny anecdote of dubitable historical accuracy that nevertheless quite well depicts a part of the mentality of Cologne.

    How would it have been used as propaganda? The unheroic conduct does not sound like it would please late 19th century nationalists.
    "Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi
    "Du musst die Sterne und den Mond enthaupten, und am besten auch den Zar. Die Gestirne werden sich behaupten, aber wahrscheinlich nicht der Zar." - Einstürzende Neubauten, Weil, Weil, Weil

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  3. #43

    Default Re: Do You Like Discussing With Foreigners the History of Your Country/People?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    How would it have been used as propaganda? The unheroic conduct does not sound like it would please late 19th century nationalists.
    You can turn it against the less jingoist/nationalist voices in your own population, for example, to keep your own jingoist/nationalist agenda strong and supported, for example. Typical example would go "Hey, you seriously don't want to be one of those guys, do you? Those guys who abandoned their country to the enemy, so everyone else had to fight a long and hard war to get it back? Of course not! So don't listen to those guys! Listen to us! We know how to keep you safe and sound, and those aggressive foreigners out!"
    Last edited by Tankfriend; June 30, 2015 at 10:48 AM.

  4. #44
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    Default Re: Do You Like Discussing With Foreigners the History of Your Country/People?

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    Be honest the only thing I care about Irish history is so I can make potato joke or making an excuse for bringing IRA into topic; similarly I only use Bolivar as an excuse to have an discussion about Colombia so it is easier to talk about cocaine.
    Not much to talk about when it comes to Colombia though. The whole revolutionary period lasted only from 1810 until 1826 when the last Spanish army was evicted from the continent in Peru (so a period about as long as the Napoleonic Era). After that it all went down hill and Bolivar died in 1830.
    But for a guy who claimed "I am not trying to be Napoleon nor Caesar" which is bull cause he desperately wanted to be Napoleon. In 1814 Napoleon wrote to him asking if he would be allowed to reside in Venezuela and possibly offer him his services as a general and Bolivar responded "this continent isn't big enough for the both of us".

    The cocaine empire itself comes much later and has more to do with the events leading up to the 1960's, the power crisis between Liberals and Conservatives and the extreme poverty that resulted form the Cold War and the massive explosion of Colombia to Mexico to USA networks of cocaine exports (which is still a problem but probably reduced since the 1990's).

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

  5. #45

    Default Re: Do You Like Discussing With Foreigners the History of Your Country/People?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    Well, I know it as a funny anecdote of dubitable historical accuracy that nevertheless quite well depicts a part of the mentality of Cologne.

    How would it have been used as propaganda? The unheroic conduct does not sound like it would please late 19th century nationalists.
    Yeah, I know - it is how it is sold in different versions. I knew it with the guard captain at the front gates and they opened fire, while civilians were still standing around.
    I believe - if there is any reality to this story - that he referred to the falling bullets, because people were shooting in the air or shooting dry, because that was very common during that time and could cause problems specifically if you a have mass of people.

    You can see that on the sides.

    You know how propaganda works: You are always on the defending side. And someone else is the aggressor – many times that's why (in propaganda) the defender has to strike first or reacts in a bigger manner than the damage that was done (what results in war as well) et cetera

    Here Napoleon is the aggressor Cologne is defending.
    Now what does Napoleon stands for? The French.
    Why does Cologne not want to be French? Because they are Germans.

    Why is there an interest to keep the Rhineland German and anti-French?
    Because the Rhineland wanted to be a republic on it's own, based on the French revolution (11.11.)

    It's very strange that the same guys (in Cologne) that witnessed the French liberation of Cologne – when nobody was fighting, specifically not the Cologne guard - and should know that Napoleon himself came 10 years later, who had such a welcome that is was international recognized and drew the pope to Paris (to secure the church power in the Rhineland - as this is the reason for the independent in the first place) – suddenly mix up the story.

    And you see that on the structure: Napoleon as a figure for French is done by his enemies.
    Specifically in the Rhineland during that time the people made a difference between the problems of the war and Napoleon (that's why he had such a welcome). They would never link that.

    It's not even a Rhineland story. Even that picture of the useless Rhineland soldier is a typical – not by the military – picture of other German regions, because of happenings before.

    The only thing that shows the mentality is that it is no fear-argumentation, because you can not argue with fear in the Rhineland. That does not compute. It's a generalization but a typical signature of the Franconian culture zone, that resulted in the fun stuff other's thought is not so funny (trading with the enemy during war).
    That's why the story ends in a joke, that carries a message, that does not compute with the Colognian mind-set the moment you lay it open:

    If your soldiers are useless (they do not even know what they signed up for – that's in the story) – and if you are under attack by the French – who do you need to get the job done?

    I can't scare you with the French, that is why it would not work that way, but in both versions you totally forget that the French never attacked you. And that is actually the most important part.
    That's how propaganda works.^^ That's why all Germans should come to together to fight for, that the Franks – to complicated – the Rhine(!) stays German (and not French and not independent).

    The moment someone thinks that Napoleon attacked Cologne and was not tracked around like a saint - you already won with that tale.
    And there are many others in a similar fashion.
    Who wants to have a secular republic with a flat hirachy OR an emperor in Paris - IF you can have an emperor in Berlin AND a cardinal at home?
    Carefull with any tale that suggests the latter, as this people here really had a choice, that would have resulted into that someone looses big.
    Last edited by Hunin; July 13, 2015 at 02:41 AM. Reason: typical German typo

  6. #46
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    Default Re: Do You Like Discussing With Foreigners the History of Your Country/People?

    Interesting analysis, thanks for that. The story does not loose its funny aspect to me, but I definitely see it in another light now. Fortunately the aim of said propaganda aspect has vanished by now, so we can fully relish the funny/anecdotal one.
    "Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi
    "Du musst die Sterne und den Mond enthaupten, und am besten auch den Zar. Die Gestirne werden sich behaupten, aber wahrscheinlich nicht der Zar." - Einstürzende Neubauten, Weil, Weil, Weil

    On an eternal crusade for reason, logics, catholicism and chocolate. Mostly chocolate, though.

    I can heartily recommend the Italian Wars mod by Aneirin.
    In exile, but still under the patronage of the impeccable Aikanár, alongside Aneirin. Humble patron of Cyclops, Frunk and Abdülmecid I.

  7. #47
    saxdude's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Do You Like Discussing With Foreigners the History of Your Country/People?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Oda Nobunaga View Post
    Not much to talk about when it comes to Colombia though. The whole revolutionary period lasted only from 1810 until 1826 when the last Spanish army was evicted from the continent in Peru (so a period about as long as the Napoleonic Era). After that it all went down hill and Bolivar died in 1830.
    But for a guy who claimed "I am not trying to be Napoleon nor Caesar" which is bull cause he desperately wanted to be Napoleon. In 1814 Napoleon wrote to him asking if he would be allowed to reside in Venezuela and possibly offer him his services as a general and Bolivar responded "this continent isn't big enough for the both of us".

    The cocaine empire itself comes much later and has more to do with the events leading up to the 1960's, the power crisis between Liberals and Conservatives and the extreme poverty that resulted form the Cold War and the massive explosion of Colombia to Mexico to USA networks of cocaine exports (which is still a problem but probably reduced since the 1990's).
    So not even an ounce of care towards precolombian and early colonial Colombia? To me thats leagues above anything Simon Bolivar or the boring half assed wars between south america has to offer.

  8. #48
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    Default Re: Do You Like Discussing With Foreigners the History of Your Country/People?

    No I always found it somewhat boring to be honest and for me it gets interesting when the Spanish arrive. I only know some limited stories about Gaspar de Rodas and his fight against the Catio tribes and the expeditions of Gonzalo Jimenez de Quesada in his search for treasure.
    Plus I don't know of very many sources.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

  9. #49

    Default Re: Do You Like Discussing With Foreigners the History of Your Country/People?

    Well, to each their own. Personally, I always found the pre-Colombian (geddit? har har) time the most interesting part of American history (both North and South). Although early US history is also interesting because of its revolutionary nature.

  10. #50

    Default Re: Do You Like Discussing With Foreigners the History of Your Country/People?

    My own country's history (Philippines) is linear and straightforward. There is not much interesting to be honest from my point of view at least. The Spanish, Americans and the Japanese came then we became independent, briefly the second richest country in Asia, then a dictator screwed us over and from there it went downhill. Pre-Spanish era history is very interesting though but I found there is little written account at the time to peak most people's curiosity.
    Everything has its beginnings, but it doesn't start at one. It starts long before that- in chaos. The world is born from zero. The moment the world becomes one, is the moment the world springs to life. One becomes two, two becomes ten, ten becomes one hundred. Taking it all back to one solves nothing. So long as zero remains, one will eventually grow to one hundred again. - Big Boss

  11. #51
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    Default Re: Do You Like Discussing With Foreigners the History of Your Country/People?

    ^ There is extremely little written about tribal people in South America as well. What is written is usually about how they got conquered by Spain or some accounts of their history, culture and religions. Frankly culture and religious beliefs don't interest me as much unless they are institutionalized, but not in a tribal society. Other accounts are more interwoven into myth. Either way the only pre-Columbian civilization that interest me are the Inca and that stuff (of course suffering the same problems in historiography and source material), I suppose the Muisca are also cool but I have never sparked an interest in them for the same reasons as above.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

  12. #52

    Default Re: Do You Like Discussing With Foreigners the History of Your Country/People?

    Brazil is probably even worse in relation to almost no content being written about the natives before the portuguese arrived. And probably the natives resisted the least to the europeans over here than the rest of the continent, as no big alliance or anything was seen, most tribes were on their own and were easily subdued, to say nothing comparing to Aztecs, Incans and north american natives. Only noteable resistance that comes up in my mind is the Tamoios confederation that allied with the French and tried to fight the portuguese in the mid 1500s, though they had quite a small area nonetheless, and they alongside the french lost.

    Most interesting aspect of south american history for me is the reign of Dom Pedro II in Brazil, and overall the Empire of Brazil in the 19th century. Specially during Pedro II's reign, where you can see a major contrast between the monarchist but impressively liberal (to the context at hand) Brazil, winning all the conflicts of his reign and even winning a diplomatic crisis against the UK right when it was at its peak, and surprisingly stablizing Brazil more than any time before or after, (Brazil had tons of revolts during Pedro's I reign, during the regency, during the start of the republic and on...), contrasting to the presidential (almost all from the military) dictatorships and caudilhos that were spread across south america through the 1800s, though arrived over here in Brazil in 1889, with a coup and the end of the Empire.


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  13. #53

    Default Re: Do You Like Discussing With Foreigners the History of Your Country/People?

    It's always infuriating to see ignorant or spiteful nationalist discussing history, yet something else that incredibly annoys me is when people start pushing modern "thoughts" and standards in past events even going so far to condemn them or saying "should have, could have"....

    A rough example would be "Romans were evil because they had slavery.".

  14. #54
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    Default Re: Do You Like Discussing With Foreigners the History of Your Country/People?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Despondent Mind View Post
    It's always infuriating to see ignorant or spiteful nationalist discussing history, yet something else that incredibly annoys me is when people start pushing modern "thoughts" and standards in past events even going so far to condemn them or saying "should have, could have"....

    A rough example would be "Romans were evil because they had slavery.".
    Not just that, the Romans were so pigheaded and regressive they didn't even have LGBT marriage and wheelchair ramps. Their beverages didn't even contain warning labels for how hot they were! I mean, hello! Have they never heard about Starbucks? Someone should go back in time and sue the Roman Senate over this. For that matter, someone needs to take the Roman leadership to the Hague to answer for their many war crimes of slaughtering barbarians outside their borders. The Hague existed back then, right?


  15. #55

    Default Re: Do You Like Discussing With Foreigners the History of Your Country/People?

    I was actually born in Colombia and currently reside in Canada.
    So either way I don't have much to talk about. The biggest event in Colombian history was the 21 years long independence war against Spain. This event culminated in direct intervention from Venezuela then union between both and then the eventual intervention of Colombia's armies in places as far away as Peru (Bajo Peru) and Bolivia (Alto Peru). Anyway other than those events and the personal history of Simon Bolivar there isn't much else to talk about when it comes to Colombian history.

    Not many people know anything about Colombia and they don't seem to care either. The most people seem to know is Pablo Escobar and the like.
    Please everyone knows...
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    I too share your pain! It is a great pain deep within the heart of man, worthy of the retelling of an epic national saga, which I shall now reveal to you, in the hopes that the wisdom, dreams, legacy, and spirit of my noble native people might live on in this realm of doubt and darkness. Let me tell you about the mystical forests, lakes, mountains, and streams of the lands of my people. Let me tell you about my native people...
    This people?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    You know, I always thought that Rio was Brazil's capital. Pardon my ignorance.
    It used to be. It actualy is an honest mistake, imo.

    Most interesting aspect of south american history for me is the reign of Dom Pedro II in Brazil, and overall the Empire of Brazil in the 19th century.
    This Dom Pedro?
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Not just that, the Romans were so pigheaded and regressive they didn't even have LGBT marriage and wheelchair ramps
    That is why some barbarians would take their time, once in a while to discipline them properly.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Last edited by Knight of Heaven; July 02, 2015 at 05:31 PM.

  16. #56
    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default Re: Do You Like Discussing With Foreigners the History of Your Country/People?

    Who can forget Shakira the very popular singer... from the 90's

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

  17. #57

    Default Re: Do You Like Discussing With Foreigners the History of Your Country/People?

    Remember, if you want history to remember you, build lots of infrastructure, develop a legible writing system, encourage the literati and artistic communities, and memorably kick the butts of all your neighbours and build memorials to your triumphs.
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  18. #58

    Default Re: Do You Like Discussing With Foreigners the History of Your Country/People?

    With me, I find a foreigner to study about their nation's history. I usually find anyone from South East Asia, hope they will teach me about their nations. And we both will share to each other about our nation's history/ mythology/ food/ culture/.... They tell me about their nation's history, and I will tell them about my nation's , too.

    With me, It is very difficult to find a foreigner who love history enough to begin a dicussion. I don't know why, may be many of them is too busy to talk about history, or they just don't really care about it?

    And even when I found a guy who have interested in history, it isn't good if he/ she is a nationalism. They will always talk about what they and their people believed, and it is very difficult to say " I doubt with some of your's information".

    Another trouble is many guys don't have much knowledge about their nation's history exclude something they studied from their school.


    It is my experience. Until now, I only have a Burmese friend. He isn't pro-nationalism, and he tell me not only good side but also dark side of his nation. We still study with each other sometimes.

  19. #59

    Default Re: Do You Like Discussing With Foreigners the History of Your Country/People?

    Quote Originally Posted by yevon View Post
    With me, I find a foreigner to study about their nation's history. I usually find anyone from South East Asia, hope they will teach me about their nations. And we both will share to each other about our nation's history/ mythology/ food/ culture/.... They tell me about their nation's history, and I will tell them about my nation's , too.

    With me, It is very difficult to find a foreigner who love history enough to begin a dicussion. I don't know why, may be many of them is too busy to talk about history, or they just don't really care about it?

    And even when I found a guy who have interested in history, it isn't good if he/ she is a nationalism. They will always talk about what they and their people believed, and it is very difficult to say " I doubt with some of your's information".

    Another trouble is many guys don't have much knowledge about their nation's history exclude something they studied from their school.


    It is my experience. Until now, I only have a Burmese friend. He isn't pro-nationalism, and he tell me not only good side but also dark side of his nation. We still study with each other sometimes.
    In my experience people tend to be disinterested in their country's own history. I suppose because the same historical narrative is being taught continuously from primary school to secondary school so it's not surprising people get bored of their own history as it is repeated over and over. Philippine history had been mostly about struggle against colonialism particularly against the Spanish (we were under 300 years of Spanish rule) and the second most important aspect was the martial law years when a dictator, Ferdinand Marcos, was in power for 20 years. In Ireland we were taught about Irish struggles against the English and always about the land. Of course let's not forget the Irish Famine.

    I have to say it's been the same narrative from kinder to secondary school in both countries. Filipinos blame the Spanish for ruining our culture and Marcos for putting us in debt. The Irish blame the English for the maltreatment, the Irish famine and stealing their land. As a matter of fact, it has been said the traveller community in Ireland are descendants from dispossessed Irish when the English finally asserted their authority in 1600's.
    Everything has its beginnings, but it doesn't start at one. It starts long before that- in chaos. The world is born from zero. The moment the world becomes one, is the moment the world springs to life. One becomes two, two becomes ten, ten becomes one hundred. Taking it all back to one solves nothing. So long as zero remains, one will eventually grow to one hundred again. - Big Boss

  20. #60

    Default Re: Do You Like Discussing With Foreigners the History of Your Country/People?

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post


    Case in point, many Germans (especially students, clergymen, and politicians) are so pig ignorant about their country's history that for them, "German history" is simply another term for Third Reich (because what's 1200 years compared to 12 years, right?).
    But then again, what is German history? Do you throw everything that happened before 1871 into the same pot and call it German history? Truth is, it was Saxon history or Bavarian history or whatever kingdom, county or duchy it concerned. They all had their own interests in mind, were pretty diverse, and fought wars with and against each other. It's also a little known fact that even the German empire after 1871 stayed federal. It was one of the conditions all the different rulers even agreed to appointing an emperor.

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