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Thread: Request to CA: Please keep these Attila/TLR Features in Future Titles

  1. #61
    Imperator Artorius's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Request to CA: Please keep these Attila/TLR Features in Future Titles

    Medieval 1 also does not have a family tree. Just a little scroll that lists heirs and brothers iirc.

  2. #62
    Humble Warrior's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Request to CA: Please keep these Attila/TLR Features in Future Titles

    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator Artorius View Post
    Medieval 1 also does not have a family tree. Just a little scroll that lists heirs and brothers iirc.
    Actually it did have a Family Tree. You had the husband and wife, and the son that came from that except you didn`t see the son until he was of a General`s age. Daughters were there too, you just don`t see them until they came of age. The Family tree was there, you just don`t get to look at it. But you saw the results of a husband and wife. That`s why it`s 10 x better than Rome 2 which had nothing, just popping up random Generals.

  3. #63
    Imperator Artorius's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Request to CA: Please keep these Attila/TLR Features in Future Titles

    Quote Originally Posted by Humble Warrior View Post
    Actually it did have a Family Tree. You had the husband and wife, and the son that came from that except you didn`t see the son until he was of a General`s age. Daughters were there too, you just don`t see them until they came of age. The Family tree was there, you just don`t get to look at it. But you saw the results of a husband and wife. That`s why it`s 10 x better than Rome 2 which had nothing, just popping up random Generals.
    Yeah I should have been clearer. I meant an actual visual representation of the tree as seen in Medieval 2 and Attila etc. As you say, even that list gave you far more information as to who your characters were than Rome II, in which everyone is just a random person one of which is lucky enough to be titled "Faction Leader" and none of whom actually seem to be related, or at least there is no way to tell.

    Still at least Attila gets it right. Just a shame we had to cry out for its return in the first place.

  4. #64

    Default Re: Request to CA: Please keep these Attila/TLR Features in Future Titles

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    It is a case against it. If you're claiming that its not then you're just objecting what I say without a reason.
    Except that I'm not objecting without reason; as I've said 1TPY ages people the same regardless of whether it's a family tree or political system being used so that's no reason not to include a family tree. As for liking how R2 included a political system that's still not a reason not to have a family tree as we see that Attila has pulled it off just fine.

    So once again the "it doesn't suit the timeline" argument makes no sense.

  5. #65

    Default Re: Request to CA: Please keep these Attila/TLR Features in Future Titles

    Quote Originally Posted by Aenima View Post
    Except that I'm not objecting without reason; as I've said 1TPY ages people the same regardless of whether it's a family tree or political system being used so that's no reason not to include a family tree. As for liking how R2 included a political system that's still not a reason not to have a family tree as we see that Attila has pulled it off just fine.

    So once again the "it doesn't suit the timeline" argument makes no sense.
    You're holding that position by ignoring any point that addressed it. So, yes, you're just objecting what I said without a reason.
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  6. #66

    Default Re: Request to CA: Please keep these Attila/TLR Features in Future Titles

    I fail to see why in 1tpy campaign family tree would be a nuisance Setekh, sure it would be more dynamic but look at CK2-after 800years u get a really interesting story to tell - u remember the deeds of pretty much every character that u played and i think that same would happen in RTW2 game in fact it did in previous TW games so why would RTW2 be an exception.
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  7. #67

    Default Re: Request to CA: Please keep these Attila/TLR Features in Future Titles

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    You're holding that position by ignoring any point that addressed it. So, yes, you're just objecting what I said without a reason.
    No, once again the points that address simply don't stand up to scrutiny. It's not my fault if your argument doesn't make sense and/or doesn't have any legs to stand on, as seems to be the case. Again, if your argument is "1TPY is too quick so you don't feel attached to family members" then the current system has the exact same problem. And if you'll then say "that's why a political system is better, it lasts throughout the game," once again Attila has shown how a political system and a family tree can work together just fine.

    So unless there's anything else you're talking about that I've missed it's not the case that I'm ignoring what you're saying, it's simply the case that your argument has been refuted.

  8. #68
    Lugotorix's Avatar non flectis non mutant
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    Default Re: Request to CA: Please keep these Attila/TLR Features in Future Titles

    Quote Originally Posted by Aenima View Post
    No, once again the points that address simply don't stand up to scrutiny. It's not my fault if your argument doesn't make sense and/or doesn't have any legs to stand on, as seems to be the case. Again, if your argument is "1TPY is too quick so you don't feel attached to family members" then the current system has the exact same problem. And if you'll then say "that's why a political system is better, it lasts throughout the game," once again Attila has shown how a political system and a family tree can work together just fine.

    So unless there's anything else you're talking about that I've missed it's not the case that I'm ignoring what you're saying, it's simply the case that your argument has been refuted.
    Speaking of which, Rome II's political system would work just fine with a 1TPY family tree. At the end of the day, Setekh is entitled to his opinion that 1TPY negates the family tree's additive value.
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  9. #69

    Default Re: Request to CA: Please keep these Attila/TLR Features in Future Titles

    Quote Originally Posted by Lugotorix View Post
    Speaking of which, Rome II's political system would work just fine with a 1TPY family tree.
    Das it mane. I'd love that, it would finally add some cohesiveness and a real sense of who's what and from where to things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lugotorix View Post
    At the end of the day, Setekh is entitled to his opinion that 1TPY negates the family tree's additive value.
    Of course he is, anyone's free to think anything whether or not I disagree. I just disagree with what he's saying and have been explaining that. I'd be happy to concede that we simply feel differently but it seems I don't even understand what it is that Setekh's arguing (according to him)

  10. #70

    Default Re: Request to CA: Please keep these Attila/TLR Features in Future Titles

    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator Artorius View Post
    Yeah I should have been clearer. I meant an actual visual representation of the tree as seen in Medieval 2 and Attila etc.
    The representation IS there. Is it as extensive as the others? No but to say it is not there is wrong as they still show it, it is simply smaller then in other titles but given it was the first to really show it off it is still a considered feature. Hell Shogun 1 from what I have recently played has a family tree but it only shows your hairs and nothing else. Medieval 1 was the start of showing you your entire family which includes wives, daughters and sons.

  11. #71

    Default Re: Request to CA: Please keep these Attila/TLR Features in Future Titles

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    Rome II political system focuses on the balance between factions, not on characters. It's much simpler compared to what Attila has.
    and lets see what these subfactions names are khmm Julia, Cornelia, and Junia so all these subfactions are family names, same is true for Carthage while other factions have practically the same system as Attila - our family vs all others.

    on the second note ur also wrong because balance betwen subfactions in RTW2 is mainly influenced by characters (events are the only other influence) so in essence it is a balance between characters - their actions

    so none of your arguments stand or even less explain why family tree wouldn't fit in.
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  12. #72

    Default Re: Request to CA: Please keep these Attila/TLR Features in Future Titles

    Quote Originally Posted by Fanest View Post
    and lets see what these subfactions names are khmm Julia, Cornelia, and Junia so all these subfactions are family names, same is true for Carthage while other factions have practically the same system as Attila - our family vs all others.

    on the second note ur also wrong because balance betwen subfactions in RTW2 is mainly influenced by characters (events are the only other influence) so in essence it is a balance between characters - their actions

    so none of your arguments stand or even less explain why family tree wouldn't fit in.
    Exactly, thank you. Marriages, assassinations, buffing/nerfing a character's dignitas etc is all a part of R2's political system. It's the cornerstone of it, it wouldn't be a political system without it! Can't believe someone would actually try to argue that a family tree being included would be a bad thing because you'd have to essentially do the exact same things for members of your family.

  13. #73

    Default Re: Request to CA: Please keep these Attila/TLR Features in Future Titles

    Quote Originally Posted by Aenima View Post
    That's completely irrelevant considering that R2 has the whole adopt/assassinate/spread rumours mechanics in it; ie almost everything that comes with a family tree mechanic. The political system is determined by individual characters, after all!

    Once again, refuted. Thank you for actually bringing up what was being missed vs just saying over and over that I was missing a point though.
    No. Not almost everything that comes with a family tree mechanic. Having a few actions don't make it irrelevant at all. Not even half of what you have with Attila's family tree is in Rome II. Nor my post was all about the number of actions. The actions are short-lived actions in line with the 1 turn per year scheme which avoids the long-term consequences of a family tree. So, when you marry someone the effect is limited to life of the character which is practically about 20-30 turns while with a family tree you also have to deal with other connections such as children for 80-120 turns. 4 turns per year allows proper propagation of a family. With 1 turn per year, it would merely be a click fest as I pointed out initially. They probably added army management to remedy that. Your army's trait were long lasting while your general's traits were a passing factor. There is also the issue of the relationship between time, detail and worth. It's not viable to have the level of detail that Attila's family tree has and then waste all that value in just a few dozen turns. The more you think about it the more it wouldn't work.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fanest View Post
    and lets see what these subfactions names are khmm Julia, Cornelia, and Junia so all these subfactions are family names, same is true for Carthage while other factions have practically the same system as Attila - our family vs all others.

    on the second note ur also wrong because balance betwen subfactions in RTW2 is mainly influenced by characters (events are the only other influence) so in essence it is a balance between characters - their actions

    so none of your arguments stand or even less explain why family tree wouldn't fit in.
    I didn't compare characters with events. Not sure where you get the idea that somehow characters don't play a role in what I said.
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; July 28, 2015 at 02:24 PM.
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  14. #74

    Default Re: Request to CA: Please keep these Attila/TLR Features in Future Titles

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    No. Not almost everything that comes with a family tree mechanic. Having a few actions don't make it irrelevant at all. Not even half of what you have with Attila's family tree is in Rome II. Nor my post was all about the number of actions. The actions are short-lived actions in line with the 1 turn per year scheme which avoids the long-term consequences of a family tree. So, when you marry someone the effect is limited to life of the character which is practically about 20-30 turns while with a family tree you also have to deal with other connections such as children for 80-120 turns. 4 turns per year allows proper propagation of a family. With 1 turn per year, it would merely be a click fest as I pointed out initially. They probably added army management to remedy that. Your army's trait were long lasting while your general's traits were a passing factor. There is also the issue of the relationship between time, detail and worth. It's not viable to have the level of detail that Attila's family tree has and then waste all that value in just a few dozen turns. The more you think about it the more it wouldn't work.
    Why is managing children for the rest of the game a bad thing? You have to manage other people in your political party, after all, so that doesn't make any sense. As for detail, I agree that Attila's family tree had a great level of detail to it, but if it were really such a bad thing for R2 you could simply scale back the detail for that! Simple solution.

    As I've said, the idea that a family tree wouldn't suit the timeline just isn't right. A family tree/political system blend could easily be achieved.

  15. #75

    Default Re: Request to CA: Please keep these Attila/TLR Features in Future Titles

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    I didn't compare characters with events. Not sure where you get the idea that somehow characters don't play a role in what I said.
    what? no seriously what? did u even read what i wrote or what u wrote?

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    Rome II political system focuses on the balance between factions, not on characters. It's much simpler compared to what Attila has.
    read again

    and lets see what these subfactions names are khmm Julia, Cornelia, and Junia so all these subfactions are family names, same is true for Carthage while other factions have practically the same system as Attila - our family vs all others.

    on the second note ur also wrong because balance betwen subfactions in RTW2 is mainly influenced by characters (events are the only other influence) so in essence it is a balance between characters - their actions

    so none of your arguments stand or even less explain why family tree wouldn't fit in.
    War is Hell, and I'm the Devil!

  16. #76

    Default Re: Request to CA: Please keep these Attila/TLR Features in Future Titles

    Again, this is an argument against 1tpy, not against family trees.

    If his (setekh's) position was only that 1 tpy makes family trees less valuable, then he would have a point. But not every campaign in RTW II is 1 tpy. And family trees aren't going to make generals age any faster, so no harm would be done in adding them, meanwhile they would actually add a lot of value to the game, as has been pointed out numerous times. That point by itself just doesn't justify family trees not being present in Rome II.

    Setekh is still ignoring the point Fanest made in his latest point, which completely undermines Setekh's position.

    Also notice how he continues to ignore the point about how incoherent the political system, which is centered around families, is without those families. Once the starting generals die out, there are no longer any members of the Cornelia family in the Cornelia political faction.

    EDIT: oops, looks like Fanest beat me to it XD.
    Last edited by IlluminatiRex; July 28, 2015 at 09:55 PM. Reason: off-topic personal reference

  17. #77
    IlluminatiRex's Avatar Are you on the square?
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    Default Re: Request to CA: Please keep these Attila/TLR Features in Future Titles

    This is a reminder to both keep the thread on-topic (this is not the first warning for this thread) and, per the ToS, that outside of the Administrative Forums, personal references, whether implicit or explicit, are off-topic. Thread re-opened. Any further issues will result in this thread being permanently closed.
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  18. #78

    Default Re: Request to CA: Please keep these Attila/TLR Features in Future Titles

    Why not just close it permanently -_- were just going in circles here. Arguing semantics rather than the topic

  19. #79

    Default Re: Request to CA: Please keep these Attila/TLR Features in Future Titles

    Quote Originally Posted by johnmck View Post
    Why not just close it permanently -_- were just going in circles here. Arguing semantics rather than the topic
    I'd have no objections to this either.

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