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Thread: Take down the #ConfederateFlag at the SC Capitol.

  1. #1

    Default Take down the #ConfederateFlag at the SC Capitol.

    Understandably, given recent events, there are demands for South Carolina to remove the Confederate flag from state buildings.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/p...federate-flag/


    I agree with the sentiment that the flag belongs in a museum. It is not commonplace for public bodies to display the flags of former repressive regimes. But part of me wonders whether these protests miss the point. It is the undercurrent of racist discourse prevalent in American society that prompted the SC killings in my view. I do not mean the usual chauvinism and petty bigotry which is a common failing of Man. I mean those loon conspiracy theory and myths peddled as "truth" that requires someone to start a race war before all is lost to (insert target here).

    As the South Carolina killer said "You rape our women and you're taking over our country. And you have to go".'Variants of this viewpoint pollute forums just about everywhere in one form or another , including this one. Give these nut-jobs a weapon and the inevitable happens. Shouldn't Americans be looking to reign in people who promote this dangerous nonsense, rather than bits of cloth, or am I to expect a First Amendment cop out?
    Last edited by mongrel; June 21, 2015 at 04:38 PM.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Take down the #ConfederateFlag at the SC Capitol.

    A legislator is putting forward a bill tomorrow. Whether anything's done with it or not who knows.

    If I threw forth the scenario that it wasn't taken down given it's memorial/grave location, I'd be willing to bet a strange compromise would be to have it match the full/halfstaff of all government flags. Which might then make it easier to take it down later given this precedent to move it. But who the hell knows at this point. It all depends on what pressure the other legislators are under.
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  3. #3
    Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Take down the #ConfederateFlag at the SC Capitol.

    The issue of the flag seems to be something people who aren't willing to be more vocal about gun violence and race relations can get behind. That doesn't mean that the debate shouldn't be had, but that it's not the important debate in lieu of the Charleston events.

    But since the thread is about the Confederate flag, my opinion has always been that it should never be displayed in any official capacity, meaning not by any state, government agency, etc. The most important reason is the simple fact that it is a flag of treason against the United States, which is why it shouldn't be part of any US official symbols. The fact that it is the flag of a state which wanted to retain slavery and official recognition of white superiority means that anyone who actually flies it is almost certainly a racist. However, that doesn't mean it should be made illegal or anything like that...America isn't Europe, and freedom of speech and expression count as much when you can fly a swastika, hammer and sickle, and Confederate flag.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Take down the #ConfederateFlag at the SC Capitol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stavroforos View Post
    The most important reason is the simple fact that it is a flag of treason against the United States, which is why it shouldn't be part of any US official symbols.
    Eh, let's leave Mississippi and Georgia out of this for now...
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Take down the #ConfederateFlag at the SC Capitol.

    Meanwhile, while the U.S.A. and state flags are lowered to half-staff, a Confederate flag on the grounds of the statehouse remains at full-staff. This flag was put on top of the dome of the statehouse in defiance of the civil rights movement in 1960s. It was only taken down to ground level in 2000 under a Democratic governor as a compromise and the authority over the flag was given to the general assembly from the governor. It doesn't even have a pulley system to be lowered...
    The Armenian Issue

  6. #6

    Default Re: Take down the #ConfederateFlag at the SC Capitol.

    I think a German federal state should start flying a Nazi flag over one of its buildings as a tribute to their "heritage".


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Take down the #ConfederateFlag at the SC Capitol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    I think a German federal state should start flying a Nazi flag over one of its buildings as a tribute to their "heritage".

    Bad news for all those Israelis who've recently moved to Berlin, then, I guess.

    I agree with Stav. People should have every right to wave around the Confederate flag if they wish to do so. However, a government state house should be no place for it, only the state flag plus our official national flag of the US: the Stars and Stripes, Old Glory, or more commonly, the Star-Spangled Banner.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Take down the #ConfederateFlag at the SC Capitol.

    there are photos going around on social media of multiracial crowds burning confederate flags, i'm not a public relations expert but this is a naive response that will likely increase radicalization, which is actually Dylann Roof's objective, well done guys. if you dislike the confederate flag your goal would be for people to naturally and voluntarily turn away from it / forget about it as time passes (which is complicated because people do tend to treasure their military ancestry). these stunts that tend to mirror the idiots that burn the american flag like Dylann Roof are only going to incite and worsen the issue, you can take it down from a pole if democracy decides it, but stop burning american flags in america.

    btw the confederate flag does make me occasionally cringe since no matter how much its supporters try to debate the issue, it DOES represent the right to own slaves, this is an inevitability when you rely on a plantation economy and human greed applied in a terrible way.
    Last edited by snuggans; June 21, 2015 at 06:12 PM.

  9. #9
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Take down the #ConfederateFlag at the SC Capitol.

    It should have been dealt with during the aftermath civial war with an amendment - simply absolutely illegal oh and your case for treason in the defense of slave aristocracy sucked. If new England had gotten a 3/5 compromise on their ships you not even been in a position fight the war you lost and managed so poorly.
    Last edited by conon394; June 21, 2015 at 06:28 PM.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Take down the #ConfederateFlag at the SC Capitol.

    You need a better definition of treason.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
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  11. #11
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Take down the #ConfederateFlag at the SC Capitol.

    I would say making war against the federal government qualifies - especially when based on the desire to not loose the political gain of human bondage.

    Besides all the officers from west point violated their oath (went they joined the CSA) - and took up arms with a self proclaimed new country = Treason
    Last edited by conon394; June 21, 2015 at 06:45 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Take down the #ConfederateFlag at the SC Capitol.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    I would say making war against the federal government qualifies - especially when based on the desire to not loose the political of human bondage.
    Who saw who other than vague witnesses to nameless soldiers of the line. Besides the key characters like Lee anyway. And we know they nailed his ass to the wall insofar as what they were willing to do and keep peace regardless.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
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    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Take down the #ConfederateFlag at the SC Capitol.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    It should have been dealt with during the aftermath civial war with an amendment - simply absolutely illegal oh and your case for treason in the defense of slave aristocracy sucked. If new England had gotten a 3/5 compromise on their ships you not even been in a position fight the war you lost and managed so poorly.
    So basically, Reconstruction shouldn't have happened.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Take down the #ConfederateFlag at the SC Capitol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stavroforos View Post
    So basically, Reconstruction shouldn't have happened.
    The South apparently should've kept burning.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
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    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Take down the #ConfederateFlag at the SC Capitol.

    You can't ban it, though you could have it removed from any state insignia or properties.

    Certainly refuse to allow it on license plates.
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    Default Re: Take down the #ConfederateFlag at the SC Capitol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    The South apparently should've kept burning.
    While part of me wishes that was what happened, Reconstruction was needed to heal the wounds and more importantly prevent an insurgency. The repercussions were moving back civil rights by a hundred years, but it kept the Union intact and stronger than ever before, which is more important. I think the US Civil War is one of the few cases of civil war in which reconciliation was reached so early and by so many on both sides.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Take down the #ConfederateFlag at the SC Capitol.

    So Mongrel found another crusade? The Confederate Battle flag, a civil rights issue! The struggle continues.

  18. #18
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Take down the #ConfederateFlag at the SC Capitol.

    Oh it should have just not first under Jackson's hands and then under Grant w/o scandals so he could have kept focus on the issue even during a recession. But I fail to see how banning the flag says anything abut reconstruction.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Take down the #ConfederateFlag at the SC Capitol.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Oh it should have just not first under Jackson's hands and then under Grant w/o scandals so he could have kept focus on the issue even during a recession. But I fail to see how banning the flag says anything abut reconstruction.
    Look, you can ban a flag from government institutions. But you're going to have troubles banning the flag outright unless you do things about the 1st Amendment. Do you want to do things about the 1st Amendment?
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  20. #20
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Take down the #ConfederateFlag at the SC Capitol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    Who saw who other than vague witnesses to nameless soldiers of the line. Besides the key characters like Lee anyway. And we know they nailed his ass to the wall insofar as what they were willing to do and keep peace regardless.
    What? Did he loose his right to vote, his property, was he not compensated for Arlington etc?
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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