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Thread: Idea of Atheism- why?

  1. #161

    Default Re: Idea of Atheism- why?

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    That's a curious thing to empirically experiment. I thought atheists enjoyed empiricism. If you want to see how the taste of the cake is, why not have a slice? And don't forget OP is a Believer, so trying to make OP's thread as an "atheist club" with very little believers allowed is not very polite, is it? Good manners please.
    Atheists enjoy whatever they want. Stop projecting Dawkins onto everybody.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  2. #162
    chriscase's Avatar Chairman Miao
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    Default Re: Idea of Atheism- why?

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    We're all guests in here, no disagreement with you whatsoever. Actually finally we agree on something. "Guests" however, who want to kick out, albeit in a subtle manner other Guests, can be considered as proper Guests?
    The mods have to decide that.

    Why is it that mysteries are always about something bad? You never hear there's a mystery, and then it's like, "Who made cookies?"
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  3. #163

    Default Re: Idea of Atheism- why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    Atheists enjoy whatever they want. Stop projecting Dawkins onto everybody.
    I'm not. I even bothered to say what, 3 times? That I do make difference between Natural Atheist and a Parrot of his Posterboy.

    I do respect the Natural Atheist who just tries to makes his sense of life, the Parrot of the Posterboy, is indeed annoying.

    Quote Originally Posted by chriscase View Post
    The mods have to decide that.
    Last edited by Aikanár; July 03, 2015 at 01:57 PM. Reason: off-topic

  4. #164

    Default Re: Idea of Atheism- why?

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    I'm not. I even bothered to say what, 3 times? That I do make difference between Natural Atheist and a Parrot of his Posterboy.

    I do respect the Natural Atheist who just tries to makes his sense of life, the Parrot of the Posterboy, is indeed annoying.
    The atheist does not necessarily enjoy empiricism. Learn this. Get that stereotype out of your skull. It's annoying. There is only one thing you need know about atheists. They. Are. Atheist. Past that. Whatever.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  5. #165

    Default Re: Idea of Atheism- why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    The atheist does not necessarily enjoy empiricism. Learn this. Get that stereotype out of your skull. It's annoying. There is only one thing you need know about atheists. They. Are. Atheist. Past that. Whatever.
    I understand your frustration, but the whole "New Atheism" movement did its best to create an "Atheist Model" for the mass media, while presenting such to anyone with a hint of Religious, over and over. The creators of the stereotype that annoys you were not the Religious person.

    That's not my fault. If it bothers you, you're complaining at the wrong door.
    Last edited by fkizz; June 28, 2015 at 02:21 PM.

  6. #166

    Default Re: Idea of Atheism- why?

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    I understand your frustration, but the whole "New Atheism" movement did its best to create an "Atheist Model" for the mass media, while presenting such to anyone with a hint of Religious, over and over. The creators of the stereotype that annoys you were not the Religious person.

    That's not my fault. If it bothers you, you're complaining at the wrong door.
    It's not a movement anymore than Christianity is a movement for Theism. They can enjoy empericism all they want. The meaning of atheism will not change no matter how much they jerk off over it and how much you try to project it onto other people to hold it against them. Get over it.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  7. #167
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    How does this reply to my question?



    Yes or No? Or perhaps?
    Philosophy is not an obstacle to logics, because it is applied logics itself. However, some people misunderstand philosophy as doing history of thought and making a point by quoting unquestioned bits and pieces from supposed "great philosophers", relying on the alleged authority of the person quoted rather than the inherent quality of the argument. That is why I made the careful distinction in answering your question. Hope it is clearer now.

    That's a curious thing to empirically experiment. I thought atheists enjoyed empiricism. Instead I see believers going for empiricism, which is highly ironic. If you want to see how the taste of the cake is, why not taste a slice?
    The meaning of this is unfortunately opaque to me. Could you elaborate on what you wish to express?

    And don't forget OP is a Believer, so trying to make OP's thread as an "atheist club" with few believers allowed is not very polite, is it? Good manners please.
    For the last time:
    I am not trying to make this an atheist club nor am I trying to oust anyone from this thread, just asking to cease the repeated ad hominem fallacies. Besides, the OP specifically asked atheists for their views. That the OP was written by a religious person does not change this fact, so I do not see what you think you can infer from this.

    PS: If you'd be so kind, would you actually answer the question I asked you to understand your position about how a "believer" would change the debate in contrast to a "disbeliever": How does your faith change the premises and logics you use for your arguments?

    Quote Originally Posted by chriscase View Post
    We're all "guests" here. I always find it strange when someone tries to argue other posters have less right to post. It's what we post that matters.

    I don't think this got a proper hearing:

    [Quotation]

    So it seems as though the real argument you have for theistic belief is existential? Without God there is no ultimate purpose to existence?
    Thanks for carrying on the actual discussion.

    To be precise my existential argument does not necessarily entail a theistic belief, but any kind of religious conduct in the broadest sense of the word. E.g. a buddhist's conduct would also be accounted for this, while buddhism is an atheist religion. A theist position is simply the choice to think of the answer to the existential question of meaning as a person, to whom then certain characteristics are ascribed.

    Your last question I would actually word the other way around in an affirmative way: Everyone somehow assumes their existence has some purpose and some call this purpose "God".
    Last edited by Aikanár; July 03, 2015 at 01:59 PM. Reason: double posts merged; continuity
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  8. #168

    Default Re: Idea of Atheism- why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    Your last question I would actually word the other way around in an affirmative way: Everyone somehow assumes their existence has some purpose and some call this purpose "God".
    I don't agree with that, our existence only has the meaning one attaches to it, objectively our existence has no purpose, we propagate the species by instinct, humans came into being through a series of natural occurrences, our existence only appears to be necessary because we obviously have no way of seeing a universe where humans either don't exist, or exist but lack the higher reasoning needed to actually ponder the question of purpose. It doesn't help that it's human nature to view things in a self centered manner.
    Last edited by War lord; June 29, 2015 at 02:15 AM.

  9. #169
    Himster's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Idea of Atheism- why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    In the second case there is no a priori thinking mind, but the empirical observation of the biological imperative to survive, as you put it, shared by all organisms. Now this raises two questions: What is an organism and how does it differ from what we call inanimate objects? And secondly, what causes the imperative to survive and what does survive actually mean? One might attempt to answer the first question by defining an organism as an object that exhibits strife to follow said imperative to survive (and reproduce), but if you analyse the constituents of an organism and something inanimate then you will find that at a basic level their continued existence is equally independent of the continued integrity (i.e. survival in the case of the supposed organism) of the object they constitute. Hence, if anything the ability and strife to reproduce is the only working characteristic of an organism. However, why would an organism have this strife that makes it use resources it could employ to ensure its own continued existence for an ultimately external purpose that will in many aspects even endanger it. This is a circular contradiction, causing organisms to strive for something that endangers their ability to do this, unless - unless the organism in what ever way presupposes/assumes/is governed by a certain goal/aim/meaning/sense/what have you that breaks this circular contradiction by outweighing the mere continued existence of its constituents.

    As for the "choice" point, apart from the example, can you give a concise definition of what "choice" means in a determinist/scientific-reductionist setting?
    Okay, an organism being different from inert matter: It's not really different, it's just relatively more complex.
    What causes the imperative to survive? Why every moment previous to the splitting of the first complex molecule of course and every moment since compounds that imperative. What does survive mean? A temporary continuation of a material pattern, what some call a mind. What does "survive" mean? A question for a linguist, after that it's a question for a philosopher, who must (by definition) rely entirely on what is established by the linguists, or become a linguist himself, which is the basis for much of philosophy anyway.

    Now back to the organism: an organism is never an individual (in the purest sense of the word), even the asexual ones, even the lone wolf. It's not just the continued existence of the individual's constituent parts that constitutes its imperative, but its pattern, I was careful in my wording there, the imperative is spread over its fellow organisms. Pattern is a very vague word and can mean a great variety of things in different contexts, for humans it's even more convoluted, particular when my favorite subject is brought up: transhumanism. A human that is no longer an organism, but identical in every other regard, perhaps replaced molecule by molecule, an easily solved thought experiment like Theseus' Ship or Locke's Socks. The same applies to all organisms.

    Choice, once reduced to it's key components can only exist in the hypothetical, it is imagination. Whether one is talking about a past choice or a future choice it doesn't matter. The thing that happened is the thing that happened and the thing that will happen is the thing that will happen. What we call choice in the future is simply the unknown (the vast majority of these supposed choices are falsehoods, things that will never be, were never going to be), in the past it's what could have been (but was not). The process of choosing is like any other thought: a sequence of complex neurological and chemical reactions, causes that had causes and reactions that will cause reactions.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

  10. #170

    Default Re: Idea of Atheism- why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    Philosophy is not an obstacle to logics, because it is applied logics itself. However, some people misunderstand philosophy as doing history of thought and making a point by quoting unquestioned bits and pieces from supposed "great philosophers", relying on the alleged authority of the person quoted rather than the inherent quality of the argument. That is why I made the careful distinction in answering your question. Hope it is clearer now.
    Are you subtly implying that people on TWC are not smart/cultured enough for a Philosophical type of Debate; without it derrailing? Well, if so...

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    The meaning of this is unfortunately opaque to me. Could you elaborate on what you wish to express?
    I hope with this the meaning becomes less opaque;
    Here:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empiricism
    Also I gave you this link and hint for free, not even a small fee required. Be thankful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    PS: If you'd be so kind, would you actually answer the question I asked you to understand your position about how a "believer" would change the debate in contrast to a "disbeliever": How does your faith change the premises and logics you use for your arguments?
    That's the question and points I made you in the first place to you. Typical sophist. However I must admit it's interesting to finally deal with one of your kind. This is going to get more and more interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    Thanks for carrying on the actual discussion.
    And then you wonder where the ideas that you try to create an alternative discussion for atheists come from?
    Your USSR-empathic friends are there backing you up. Good to see you have reserves.
    Last edited by Aikanár; July 03, 2015 at 01:59 PM. Reason: continuity

  11. #171
    chriscase's Avatar Chairman Miao
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    Default Re: Idea of Atheism- why?

    Wow. More distortions, deliberate misinterpretations, and ad hominem attacks from fkizz. I see nothing of any value whatsoever in this post.

    Why is it that mysteries are always about something bad? You never hear there's a mystery, and then it's like, "Who made cookies?"
    - Demetri Martin

  12. #172

    Default Re: Idea of Atheism- why?

    Quote Originally Posted by chriscase View Post
    Wow. More distortions, deliberate misinterpretations, and ad hominem attacks from fkizz. I see nothing of any value whatsoever in this post.
    Have you ever written anything to me that wasn't butthurt post or "judas iscariot kiss"?

  13. #173
    chriscase's Avatar Chairman Miao
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    Default Re: Idea of Atheism- why?

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    Have you ever written anything to me that wasn't butthurt post or "judas iscariot kiss"?
    Meh. Probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    To be precise my existential argument does not necessarily entail a theistic belief, but any kind of religious conduct in the broadest sense of the word. E.g. a buddhist's conduct would also be accounted for this, while buddhism is an atheist religion. A theist position is simply the choice to think of the answer to the existential question of meaning as a person, to whom then certain characteristics are ascribed.

    Your last question I would actually word the other way around in an affirmative way: Everyone somehow assumes their existence has some purpose and some call this purpose "God".
    Ok, but even supposing everyone presumes their existence has purpose how does this lead us to any conclusion about existence itself? Perhaps an impulse towards self-preservation is simply a predominant mental habit among those who have survived.
    Last edited by chriscase; June 30, 2015 at 05:13 PM.

    Why is it that mysteries are always about something bad? You never hear there's a mystery, and then it's like, "Who made cookies?"
    - Demetri Martin

  14. #174

    Default Re: Idea of Atheism- why?

    you stated westboro baptist church arent christians but if they believe they are....guess what, by christian logic they are!

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