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Thread: Battle Mechanics Explanation Video

  1. #1

    Default Battle Mechanics Explanation Video

    Feel free to comment or ask whatever you like..



    Also a Video showing the impact of battle tactics and mechanics in action.It is a bit long (15 min) but i think it is worth watching it..



    NEW FEATURE Deep phalanx see below (also presented in post #9)

    Thanks Hoplite..

    New "deep phalanx" better simulation.

    First of all let me say that from start i wanted somehow to represent the depth of ranks to have a point in battle.Unfortunately the effects of pushing do not stack.I mean if you have 2 units and the one behind is pushing the forward unit the forward unit receives bonus but if you add another unit behind the second and push again the push effect does not stack.After reading the logical argument of M@x1mus in an internal talk about how we can simulate depth of ranks better i realised that this "problem" (not beeing able to stack the push effects) was fotunate to have happened because otherwise it would make depth of ranks rather arcadeish.The comment was this..

    "Continuous othismos is not possible with this mechanic we are using. Only 1 unit frontally can be affected. But this is not a-historical in my opinion because how many ranks could succesfully "push" without break the whole formation? If all 50 ranks were able to push the soldiers in the front lines will be smashed like insects on their shields! Also in Delium Pagondas used a 50 deep rank on his right wing hoping to crash the Athenian left which was 8 deep rank, but the Athenians hold their positions incredibly well! So well that their defeat came from their other flank only when Theban cav attacked them from rear. To conclude, i think that if "othismos" was continious and the pushing power of thie 50 ranks could be transfered to the first ranks, (assumming that the first ranks don't get smashed on their shields like insects) they destroy the Athenian left flank at no time. The power of the 50 deep rank was ofc more lines to push (but no more than 10 max 20 in my opinion) but also the psychological one, imagine the 8 deep Spartans at Leuctra sawing in front of them endless ranks of the enemy and no matter how many they kill nothing actually happened!"


    So i came with an idea to balance all.Neither overpower the first rank but also give a certain bonus.
    So..
    what i did was this..Each push ability now lasts 5 minutes.After that the unit needs another 5 minutes to rest so it can push again.You only got 3 pushes in the battle since othismos was tiring enough.So you get pushed, you get a bonus for 5 minutes and then nothing until "recharge".Now if you place another (3rd unit) behind the second and you activate deep phalanx ability then this ability makes the recharge time for pushing -> 0. Therefore the second unit can imediately start pushing again with no rest period and the first unit receives the bonus without delay therefore conituing "slaughtering" and demoralizing the enemy..As a result a 2 phalanx deep formation would be inferior to a 3 phalanx deep since the 3 phalanx deep will not have the "pause for rest" period but will coninue to push and receive bonus while the opponent is "recharging".

    Take a look in the mechanic step by step with photos..

    Phase A
    Placing 3 units one behind the other
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Phase B
    putting the first in phalanx
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Phase C
    The second unit pushes (1st and 3rd units receive bonus)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Phase D
    The Othismos ability is active but cannot be reactivated for 600 seconds (600seconds=10 minutes.5Minutes othismos is active and for 5 extra minutes will be inactive since unit Nr2 is "resting-recharging") (NOTE : here in this pic it shows 281 sec by mistake)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Phase E
    3rd unit uses deep phalanx ability afffecting only the 2nd unit
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Phase F
    You can see that the push ability of the second unit is imediately "recharged"(its the icon with the number 2 that is yellow.No balck shadow around it showing recharging but a golden circle showing ready for use)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Phase G
    All of the deep phalanx.The first unit receives its bonus without any delay continuing to slaughter the opponent.(in this case a fearsome and aggressive mass of air)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Last edited by Phalangitis; February 03, 2018 at 05:27 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Battle Mechanics Explanation Video

    There is nothing like a video... Great job

  3. #3

    Default Re: Battle Mechanics Explanation Video

    Wow, very innovative approach to the (hoplite) battle mechanism and it's very ambitious.
    It would take some time for the players to learn it.
    I hope that the AI will "learn" that mechanism to

    I also like that you decided to put some more text in units description- it recalls good old times, RTW mods.
    Last edited by Demon Soul; June 07, 2015 at 02:52 PM.

    "najłatwiej i najpiękniej nie gnębić drugich, ale samemu nad sobą pracować, żeby być możliwie jak najlepszym" Sokrates

  4. #4
    Mausolos of Caria's Avatar Royal Satrap
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    Default Re: Battle Mechanics Explanation Video

    Very innovative indeed, good job Phalangitis I can't wait to see how it will work in battles!
    "Pompeius, after having finished the war against Mithridates, when he went to call at the house of Poseidonios, the famous teacher of philosophy, forbade the lictor to knock at the door, as was the usual custom, and he, to whom both the eastern and the western world had yielded submission, ordered the fasces to be lowered before the door of science."

    Pliny the Elder, Naturalis Historia, 7, 112

  5. #5

    Default Re: Battle Mechanics Explanation Video

    An excellent job!! Im getting used to it from you Phal...

  6. #6

    Default Re: Battle Mechanics Explanation Video

    very very great job guys

  7. #7

    Default Re: Battle Mechanics Explanation Video

    Love it! =)

  8. #8
    AngryHoplite's Avatar Foederatus
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    Default Re: Battle Mechanics Explanation Video

    Awesome Work! Respect!


    Give Them Nothing! But take from them, Everthing!

  9. #9

    Default Re: Battle Mechanics Explanation Video

    Thanks Hoplite..

    New "deep phalanx" better simulation.

    First of all let me say that from start i wanted somehow to represent the depth of ranks to have a point in battle.Unfortunately the effects of pushing do not stack.I mean if you have 2 units and the one behind is pushing the forward unit the forward unit receives bonus but if you add another unit behind the second and push again the push effect does not stack.After reading the logical argument of M@x1mus in an internal talk about how we can simulate depth of ranks better i realised that this "problem" (not beeing able to stack the push effects) was fotunate to have happened because otherwise it would make depth of ranks rather arcadeish.The comment was this..

    "Continuous othismos is not possible with this mechanic we are using. Only 1 unit frontally can be affected. But this is not a-historical in my opinion because how many ranks could succesfully "push" without break the whole formation? If all 50 ranks were able to push the soldiers in the front lines will be smashed like insects on their shields! Also in Delium Pagondas used a 50 deep rank on his right wing hoping to crash the Athenian left which was 8 deep rank, but the Athenians hold their positions incredibly well! So well that their defeat came from their other flank only when Theban cav attacked them from rear. To conclude, i think that if "othismos" was continious and the pushing power of thie 50 ranks could be transfered to the first ranks, (assumming that the first ranks don't get smashed on their shields like insects) they destroy the Athenian left flank at no time. The power of the 50 deep rank was ofc more lines to push (but no more than 10 max 20 in my opinion) but also the psychological one, imagine the 8 deep Spartans at Leuctra sawing in front of them endless ranks of the enemy and no matter how many they kill nothing actually happened!"


    So i came with an idea to balance all.Neither overpower the first rank but also give a certain bonus.
    So..
    what i did was this..Each push ability now lasts 5 minutes.After that the unit needs another 5 minutes to rest so it can push again.You only got 3 pushes in the battle since othismos was tiring enough.So you get pushed, you get a bonus for 5 minutes and then nothing until "recharge".Now if you place another (3rd unit) behind the second and you activate deep phalanx ability then this ability makes the recharge time for pushing -> 0. Therefore the second unit can imediately start pushing again with no rest period and the first unit receives the bonus without delay therefore conituing "slaughtering" and demoralizing the enemy..As a result a 2 phalanx deep formation would be inferior to a 3 phalanx deep since the 3 phalanx deep will not have the "pause for rest" period but will coninue to push and receive bonus while the opponent is "recharging".

    Take a look in the mechanic step by step with photos..

    Phase A
    Placing 3 units one behind the other
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Phase B
    putting the first in phalanx
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Phase C
    The second unit pushes (1st and 3rd units receive bonus)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Phase D
    The Othismos ability is active but cannot be reactivated for 600 seconds (600seconds=10 minutes.5Minutes othismos is active and for 5 extra minutes will be inactive since unit Nr2 is "resting-recharging") (NOTE : here in this pic it shows 281 sec by mistake)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Phase E
    3rd unit uses deep phalanx ability afffecting only the 2nd unit
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Phase F
    You can see that the push ability of the second unit is imediately "recharged"(its the icon with the number 2 that is yellow.No balck shadow around it showing recharging but a golden circle showing ready for use)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Phase G
    All of the deep phalanx.The first unit receives its bonus without any delay continuing to slaughter the opponent.(in this case a fearsome and aggressive mass of air)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Last edited by Phalangitis; February 03, 2018 at 05:26 PM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Battle Mechanics Explanation Video

    Is the AI able or expected to be able to use these positional abilities properly?

  11. #11

    Default Re: Battle Mechanics Explanation Video

    Not as smart as the plaeyer for sure.It uses othismos but probably not deep phalanx and that is what we aimed for given the circumstances.Unfortunately AI is very stupid both in battle and in campaign.The only way to make the game any difficult was the following..
    Since with equal circumstances human steamrolls AI the Ai is given certain bonuses to attack and defense.The human to overcome this handicap is forced to use clever tactics and formations.So human needs to invest where he is strong (his brain) and AI where it is strong (fast coordinated multiple and simultaneus commands-attacks and brute force).In order to survive you need to tink and plan a solid strategy plus take advantage of various aspects of campaign like battle terrain or omens that affect strong the outcome in battlefield (those are all explained in detail in the apropriate sections of the GaW manual..)

  12. #12

    Default Re: Battle Mechanics Explanation Video

    Fantastically implemented Phal !!

  13. #13
    GourmetGorilla's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Battle Mechanics Explanation Video

    This mod looks absolutely magnificent. Very creative mechanics!

    I did however notice that one of the abilities in the video has a typo: it says "act as currier" when it should say "courier".

  14. #14

    Default Re: Battle Mechanics Explanation Video

    Quote Originally Posted by GourmetGorilla View Post
    This mod looks absolutely magnificent. Very creative mechanics!

    I did however notice that one of the abilities in the video has a typo: it says "act as currier" when it should say "courier".

    Indeed! Will be fixed thanks!

  15. #15

    Default Re: Battle Mechanics Explanation Video

    Quote Originally Posted by GourmetGorilla View Post
    This mod looks absolutely magnificent. Very creative mechanics!

    I did however notice that one of the abilities in the video has a typo: it says "act as currier" when it should say "courier".
    haha Thanks for the advise bro. note taken.

  16. #16
    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Battle Mechanics Explanation Video

    This is the best thing I've ever seen on TWC from the times of RTW!

    Really guys, here it's the old tabletop-wargamer speaking: I was dreaming something like this (supporting second rank, formation's depth effects and orders' mechanics) from years and years, my hair are now grey and finally a group of men of good will has brought a real wargaming phylosophy into a TW game! What can I say? Thanks guys! Great work! + MEGAREP!

  17. #17

    Default Re: Battle Mechanics Explanation Video

    We are honestly (and not pseudo-humbly) honoured by those remarks.Thanks you.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Battle Mechanics Explanation Video

    + rep for you Diocle. Glad you like and support us

  19. #19
    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Battle Mechanics Explanation Video

    I've just some doubt about the actual efficacy of the push of the third rank in an oplitic formation, with pikemen it would be different, but, with spears .. actually I don't know if the third rank could really give some support to the steadiness of the first line in terms of combat mechanics. Anyway my knowledge about ancient oplitic warfare is too limited to express any serious consideration on the matter, so I gladly follow you guys on this matter.

    I know this: Caesar using Triplex Acies won at Pharsalus, so I've always loved the concept of a third rank behind the first two, it's like having one more bullet in your gun .. it makes me feel more .. "safe"? (perhaps some kind of Italian military syndrome? )

    Anyway good work, guys! Let me just repeat here that, playing Napoleon TW, thousands times I've seen in my imagination a Hussar galloping on the field, trying to carry the Emperor's orders to that demi-brigade, isolated and lost on my wing and suffering heavy losses! It's a tragedy, those men are dying there and they don't know what they have to do! .. I could even see the man, riding on his horse and galloping like a mad, under bullets and artillery fire, just to transmit orders!
    The transmission of orders is one of the most crucial parts of any battle, people die bringing orders! If I'm not wrong a small corporal from Lintz, named Adolf Hitler, got two Iron Crosses of Second and First Class, doing this dangerous task at Ypres and at the Somme. The mechanics ruling the transmission of orders are fundamental in understanding what actually happens on the battlefield.

    So once again congrats guys, for bringing us into the hell of the real battlefield!
    Last edited by Diocle; September 05, 2015 at 01:58 PM.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Battle Mechanics Explanation Video

    you have many valud points in your thought.It just sometimes we need to compromise a bit to get the actual result. Indeed a 50 row deep phalanx would not push better than a 40.The strength from 50 rows deep never reached the first men . If it did they would be smashed in enemy shields like flies as my friend m@x says.The truth is that the true weapon of deeper phalanx was psychological pressure. The enemy would kill and kill but still more foes were in front of him like an endless sea of spears.This is indirectly visualised here.So that's the reason a triple phalanx outweighs a double.Thanks again for your remarks and your passion for the game or your focus in detail is very close to mine.You reminded me many loong nights of my younger years where the feeling of gaming was magical..(you see we both got grey hair :p)

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