Politeia tōn Hrōmaiōn (info and units)

[nikossaiz]

As Lifthhasir noted this is a thread about the eastern roman empire ( or what was left from it ) so let stick to that. The pic that uploaded was only a teaser, not enything finished or polished. Mourtatoi was for sure a name for the mixed sholdiers of greek and turkish herittage and served as foot archers. in the pic they used their second weapon cause they charging the enemy. Tartan , at least an early version of it, existed in all over the galleic-celtic colture , the picts, let say an early inhabitands of what it is now scotland used that kind of patterns. but anyway, this is another thread. Lastly i have to say that i am using CBUR, Broken crishent, rushichi, georgian, and mine models and textures. But the final result will not be a 100% comnenian roster.

[j.a.luna]

Ok nikkosaiz, i am wishing look more units about komnenian roster,! Great job and information!

[nikossaiz]

my purpose is not to replace every model or unit, but to make the roster a little more to the date of the mod and as far as my primitive moding abilities allow me . The varangian guard unit for example is perfect as it is, so im not going to touch them. and i like the stratiotae unit from the old CBUR to be honest. So, the units i make are only my opinion as a student historian, and entusiast player. the guys who run the mod may not find them suitable. So, new units are not everything.

[Lifthrasir]

Honestly, the Mourtatoi are fine for me
That's why I posted these sources to explain why they should look "turkish" somehow.

For the rest, we can discuss about them when you have done them

PS: I'm preparing a thread about Scotts.

[j.a.luna]

No problem nikossaiz, littles improves for sship are good and welcome, and more if they are with accuracy in history...i like also varangian guards in current mod, post more images about your work please! they are great!

[nikossaiz]

Stratiotae ippeas ( στρατιώτης ιππέας ) supported by scoutarioi bearing spears. Stratiotae ippeis were small land ( pronoia ) owners by that time. unlike other pronoia cavalry like latinikon ( or franks or celts ) , aristocrates ( nobles ) or even cuman pronoiarii ( in very large numbers at the time of empire of Nicae ) , most of them were natives from the asia minor.

[Alavaria]

I always liked units with solid spears. I think vanilla and some mods have really thin-looking spears that it's hard to imagine it surviving a cavalry charge (survival of the spearman is a different issue)

[Lifthrasir]

Good job! Just 2 questions about these Stratiotae ippeis: they're light cavalry, right? Which era is concerned?

[nikossaiz]

medium cavalry. the light one consisted of other ethnocities and were bassicaly hores archers ( ecxept for perhaps the ones for the trebizond ).This is the classic look of the Byzantine cavalry as shown in the Byzantine paintings of the 13th century. i will say from 1204 until 1230 approximately. Although their appearance has changed very little until the end of the empire. Another name that describes the soldiers "statiotes" is "those who wearing breastplates." even though only wealthier and with bigger pronoia ones could afford better armor so was a theoritical name ( just like many titles in the byzantine court were ) the appearance combines Grecoroman and Middle Ages elements: chain hooded, body chained mail with straps on the chest, double or four rows of leather wings, leggings. their weapons were the famous triangular shield covering half their body, spear and double-edged sword.

[nikossaiz]

the next days i will present my opinion for the full roster. some well known units will leave the list , like acritae and scholarii, other will be introdused and other will change roles and become in par with the time frame ( approximately ) of the mod. Abou t the scoutatoi now.In reallity as i mentioned in another thread, the majority of the infrantry especially, wear almost no armor or thick wool or leather tunics at best. But this is a game and every unit has to be represended differently. otherwise we would have only two infantry units. light with boes and javelins and heavy with spears , all the same. were is the fun in that?? even more, the byzantine empire resurrected many times, the player must have the chance to try it once more!

[j.a.luna]

great units nikkosaiz!!!i want mooreeeeeeeeeeeeee hahaha, about new units, have you upgrades armour for them no?? we have katapratorai also no? for byzantines i love their infantry, scoutotais with big big shields, look similar to ancient roman legions and this for me is awesome and revive my dream for have a large imperium romanun again and also i like the heavy cavalry of byzantines as katapratorai, much armour for horses and rider, revive the ancient persian style....
for make the new roster you see some historical book or document about their armours and weapons in middle age???
COntinue with your great job and improve sship friend!

[j.a.luna]

the next days i will present my opinion for the full roster. some well known units will leave the list , like acritae and scholarii, other will be introdused and other will change roles and become in par with the time frame ( approximately ) of the mod. Abou t the scoutatoi now.In reallity as i mentioned in another thread, the majority of the infrantry especially, wear almost no armor or thick wool or leather tunics at best. But this is a game and every unit has to be represended differently. otherwise we would have only two infantry units. light with boes and javelins and heavy with spears , all the same. were is the fun in that?? even more, the byzantine empire resurrected many times, the player must have the chance to try it once more!

Why you quit acritae and scholari? I think that acritae(fronter soldiers)were useful, maybe replace for pronoia soldiers? I will hope your list about new roster and explain with historical resources please

[Lifthrasir]

Akrites were from anatolian borders and were a militia. Psiloi seem more appropriate: same kind of units but it looks like a more "professional" unit.

Regarding Scholari, they were "out dated" at the time when the game starts if I remember well (but I'm not sure).

All in all, these informations should be within the 4 or 5 first pages of this thread

[nikossaiz]

akrites were a "product" of themata institution which had become in huge decline the time before the conquest of Constantinople by the Latins. The "psiloi", which you are right, constituted the bulk of the pedestrian archers and javelin throwers were basically farmers and peasants. There were no professional warriors and rarely brought armor. only their main arms. a professional unit which in my opinion can be in par with the acritae of earlier times ( im talking about stats in battle in game, not their history backround ) are the "Tzakones" . Anyway, as i said in the next days i will present a full roster, open in debate ofcourse

[Lifthrasir]

Look forward for it

[j.a.luna]

SOME INFORMATION FOR SUPPORT YOU NIKKOSAIZ
this is a post from Basileios wrote in 2007



Light infantry (Psilon):

Peasants = Helotes[ALL] Paroikoi
Helots or Helotes means taxpayers. Contrary to Stratiotai (soldiers) they were generally not expected to fight! Though they could be called up for guard services (tzakonike phylaxis) - see Tzakones

Town Militia = Tzakones (preferable with clubs) [ALL]
a.) Tzakones, Phylakes or Viglai are watchmen provided by the cities. Unlike the Stratiotai they weren't expected to fight, but to perform guard duties for which professional soldiers were freed from. Surviving evidens suggests that they needn't be armed in anyway... In the later HIGH era cities often employed professionals to do the job. These professional guards might well have been more or less properly equipped.
b.) Macebearing Imperial Marines
c.) As Palace Guard first mentioned in 1262, last recorded in 1285 but certainly didn't survive the reign of Andronikos II (1282-1328).

Spear Militia = Phylakes [ALL]
see Tzakones but just a.)

{Javelinmen = Riptaristai (or Akontistai) [ALL]}
Riptaristai or better known under their earlier name: Akontistai, are line infantrymen armed with javelins (riptarion or akoution). Generally supposed to be armed and equipped like the heavy armed infantry but carrying javelins and 'more moderate' shields insteed of pike and hoplite-shield their main job is to protect the space between the taxeis (~phalanx). In addition to that the can skirmish with the enemy, fight in terrain unsuitable for heavy infantry and to support the cavalry when pursuing the enemy after the victory.
Riptaristai can be taken from the ranks of the heavy infantry but generals are advised to employ foreign troops - preferable Rhos - insteed!

Byzantine Spearmen = Peltastai [ALL]
Since the pike (kontarion makron) that is the prime weapon of the heavy infantry needs a great deal of training and is far heavier than spears of normal lenght, second rank troops can be equiped with the kontarion mikron ('normal' spear) insteed. These troops were called Peltastai!

I am not sure about Javelinmen and Byz Spearmen/Peltastai, maybe combine them into a single Peltastai ?

Heavy Infantry (Hopliton/Skoutaraton):

Byzantine Infantry = Paramonai [ALL] or [HIGH & LATE] depending on concept!
a.) In the EARLY periode the term 'Paramonai' apeared in military treaties but without telling us what they were. From there function they might have been either aides, bodyguards or retainer...
b.) As an Imperial Guard unit the Paramonai are first recorded in 1272 and were last mentioned in 1315. Unlike the Varangoi, Mourtatoi and other units the Paramonai consisted of native Byzantines. Paramonai were recorded both mounted and on foot. The foot soldiers being armed with swords.

{Byzantine armoured spearmen = Peltastai Enoplioi [ALL]} Skoutatoi
Armoured Peltastai

{Byzantine Armoured Pikemen = Skoutatoi (or Hoplitai) [ALL]} Kontaratoi
Hoplitai or in earlier manuals Skoutatoi are Byzantine heavy infantry. Armed with the 12-16 ft kontarion makron or pike they form the backbone of the battle infantry. Their prime task is to act defensively in order to provide a save heaven for the cavalry as the striking arm of the army.
Though the description of the hoplitai and their equipment was generally simply copied from earlier manuals, there is one difference to the Skoutatoi: the later were at least in theory supposed to be armoured in solid armour such as mail shirts or lamellar (klibanion) while the Hoplitai were supposed to wear a knee long protective armour (kabadion) only.

{Menavlatoi [ALL]}
The infantry's anti-cataphract specialists. Armoured and equipped in the same way as the Hoplitai but carrying the menavlion - a thick, heavy and solid spear of normal lenght - and a smaller shield.

Varangian Guard = Pelekyphoroi or Varangoi [ALL]
The Varangoi (Varangians or Vikings) are said to have provided the Emperors personal bodyguard (Hetaireia Basiklike or Megas Hetaireia). They are often named after their large battle-axe: Pelekyphoroi (Axe-bearers). It has been sugested that most of the Varangians might have been much less heavy armoured than generally assumed and that maybe even not all of them carried the famous batte-axes...

Dismounted Byzantine Lancers = Kontaratoi (or Pezkontaratoi) [ALL] I still like Dismounted Stratiotai or maybe Pronoiarioi Spatharoi?
Dismounted Byzantine Lancers often fought as armoured Hoplitai or Skoutatoi.

Dismounted Latinkon = Spatharioi ton Latinkon [ALL]
Means 'Sword-bearer of the Latin(s) mercenaries...

Missile Infantry:

Peasant Archers = Psiloi [ALL]
In acient days all light troops were described as 'Psiloi', while Byzantine military treaties use this term exclusively for the foot archers. Though Byzantine Psiloi were armoured in the standart armour - the knee long padded kabadion, for games sake it might be better to leave them unarmoured!

Archer Militia = Toxotai [ALL]
In Byzantine military treaties the term 'Toxotai' usually describes the bow-armed line cavalry, but can be used for foot archers too...

Trebizond Archers [ALL] Trapezounta Toxotai
Due to closer contact to the Turks the Trebizontians apearantly became more profident with the bow than the rest of the Empire...

Byzantine Guard Archers = Mourtatoi [HIGH & LATE]
The Mourtatoi were soldiers of mixed Turkish-Byzantine marriages. Mourtatoi or Murtati in Latin is ought to dereive from the Arabo-Turkish word murtedd, murtat meaning "apostolate" or "renegade". Unlike the Tourkopouloi the Mourtatoi didn't seem to be Christianized Turks...
They seemed to have been employed not only by the Emperor but by other lords, too (not only in Byzantium). Existing evidence sugests that they fought as foot archers. As an Imperial Guard unit the Mourtatoi existed around 1310-14 and may not have existed after 1328...

Heavy Cavalry (Kataphrakton):

Kataphractoi = Kataphraktoi [ALL] -> preferable mace only!
a.) After the Byzantine military treaties the Kataphraktoi were the native Byzantine heavy cavalry. Originally armoured with a klibanion with sleaves but unknown lenght sandwiched between two thick padded protective garments (knee long kabadion under the klibanion and epilorikon above), greaves protecting the lower arms and legs, mail zabai protecting exposed bodyparts between the klibanion and greaves, a mail hood protecting the face and a heavy helmet protecting the head. Later klibanion and greaves were replaced with mail shirt/coat and mail stockings.
Though armed with lance, mace (or paramerion), sword and bow, Kataphraktoi were typically supposed to fight with the mace as their main impact weapon! The archers in the cataphract-wedge might well derived from the line cavalry.
b.) Generic term for the heavy cavalry sometimes including the line cavalry as well.

Kataphraktoi/Klibanophoroi may have survived until the introduction of western cavalry tactics by Manuel I Komnenios but may have disappeared as early as 1000 AD... Horse armour remained in use until the end of the Byzantine army. Though certainly not for entire units!

Byzantine Lancers = Kontaratoi Hippotai [ALL] Stratiotai or Pronoiarioi Kavallarioi
Kontaratoi Hippotai - in the military treaties refered to as Kontaratoi - were the lance bearing medium armoured line cavalry. Originally armoured with the padded kabadion (gambison) and either klibanion (lamellar) or lorikion (hauberjon - mail or scale) and armed with lance, sword and mace, they formed around 60% of the line cavalry.

Latinkon = Kaballarioi/Kavallarioi (ton Latinkon) [ALL]
Kaballarios or Kavallarios was originally a Hellenized Latin term for cavalry. In the HIGH periode it was used exclusively as the term for western knights in Byzantine employ (usually as Pronoiarioi).

Militia Cavalry = Trapezitoi (Tassinarioi, Chosarioi or Prokoursatores) [ALL]
Byzantine light cavalry including both lancers and archers. Usually taken either from frontier cavalry or elite Tagmatic cavalry.

General's Bodyguard = Klibanophoroi [ALL]
Klibanophoroi are cataphracts fighting in the way of the old Equites Clibanarii with the lance. Klibanophoroi may have been among the personal retainers of generals and the Emperor. One of the few actions of supposingly lance-armed cataphracts was performed by the Tagma of the Athanatai. Probably the Athanatai remained to be composed of Kataphraktoi/Klibanophoroi until the end of Alexios I Komnenios reign in 1118. Kataphraktoi/Klibanophoroi may have survived until the introduction of western cavalry tactics by Manuel I Komnenios but may have disappeared as early as 1000 AD...

Horse armour remained in use until the end of the Byzantine army. Though certainly not for entire units!

Missile Cavalry:

Byzantine Cavalry = Hippo-Toxotai [ALL]
Hippo-Toxotai - in the military treaties refered to as Toxotai - were the bow bearing medium armoured line cavalry. Originally armoured with the padded kabadion (gambison) and either klibanion (lamellar) or lorikion (hauberjon - mail or scale) and armed with bow, sword and mace, they formed around 40% of the line cavalry.

Skythikon [ALL]
Generic ancient term for the horse riding steppe people in Byzantine employ. Usually performing as horse archers.

Vardariotai [HIGH & LATE]
Soldiers from a people of Christianized Turks settled in the Macedonian Vardar valley. They actually weren't listed as soldiers but as unarmed palace servants and may have rather performed in a policing than military function!
First attested in 1166 and may have survived in the 14th century.



ALSO I HAVE SOME INFORMATION HERE ABOUT CONMENIAN ARMY, WRITE IN SPANISH
http://arrecaballo.es/edad-media/el-...-los-comnenos/

[nikossaiz]

Thank you J.a. luna!. as a student historian ( well, my basic profession and occupation is other, but i managed to enter the univercity through exams once again ) i have acces to a lot of resources. Even more, are litterally hundreds of books and spme documentaries that you can find information about medieval era on the internet. After wikipedia, try scribd. Now, my aim is to make a roster that present the transition from the comnenian one to the laskaris and the late period one. keep in mind that anything new is not always for the best. So dont get to exaggerate about new units

[Lifthrasir]

j.a.luna is probably the most enthusiastic SSHIP's user (no bad meaning at all)
That's something you'll need to get used to, nikossaiz

[j.a.luna]

Haha this is true, the fan number one and you know it, but i try to support with information about units,military history,some mods,things to improve sship in general, because i love the history and specially wars of middle age and renaissance...
And also many youtubers and modders know sship for me advices hehe
Anyway i wish see new roster friend!

[nikossaiz]

Just to inform that i'm still on truck and I have almost done the majority of the units. I need to take care many textures though and certainly many shields. As i said before i took parts from the rushiski mod, the current roman roster from the sship, the complete byzantine roster and the wondelfull broken cresckent. For uniformallity i choose all body models to be from the rushiski mod. here is a tiny sample from the shields that im working on.