Harad and Far Harad- Lore and Map Discussion

[alreadyded]

I am expanding the map to the south and southeast (I already expanded it as far east as possible, see sig image) and was wondering what people think the map and factions should be down there. So opinions (especially from those who use the lore as a basis) are welcomed. I realize there is very little lore on the area and that all of it is from the Western perspective, but I figured starting a discussion here could give me some good ideas.

[Roma_Victrix]

So what is the version of China in Tolkein's universe, then? If you go all the way east until you hit water?

[athanaric]

You could consult the FATW team, since that mod has a Far Harad faction.

[Ngugi]

Not quite the proper spot for this thread, but I'll leave it for a little while to attract attention before it's moved over to the Submod-forum.


In a strict sense no specific data is known that may be considered canonical in the post-LotR legandarium, with the obsolete Ambarkanta-map as only depiction (which may be used for inspiration none the less, for all it's general vagueness) and Eärendil's southern travels rejected etc.

If I was to make a suggestion I would make it a high culture in it's own (a.k.a not merely 'huts in the jungle' here, while I do not fear you had that in mind at all):

In the east and south well nigh all Men were under his dominion, and they grew strong in those days and built many towns and walls of stone, and they were numerous and fierce in war and aimed with iron.
- Sauron in the 2nd Age, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

Also add a Númenórean element. While The Black Númenóreans in known/Near Harad I interpet it as died out, further south there ought to be small former kingsdoms were they did merged into the native population(s), and a Far Harad faction could use that.

For in the days of the sojourn of Sauron in that land the hearts of well nigh all its people had been turned towards darkness. Therefore many of those who sailed east in that time and made fortresses and dwellings upon the coasts were already bent to his will, and they served him still gladly in Middle-earth. But because of the power of Gil-galad these renegades, lords both mighty and evil, for the most part took up their abodes in the southlands far away;
- Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

After the fall of Sauron their race swiftly dwindled or became merged with the Men of Middle-earth, but they inherited without lessening their hatred of Gondor.
- footnote, Appendix A

Beside that, I'm really not sure how they should diverse from the current Harad faction, from lore perspective that is, even if inspirations for tropical cultures are wide and avilable, such as Meso-american, Indian, African, Middle-eastern, etc.
Naturally, you may add some small good Haradrim faction, would be fun and fitting:

He rode in the host of the Rohirrim, and fought for the Lord of Gondor by land and by sea; and then in the hour of victory he passed out of the knowledge of Men of the West, and went alone far into the East and deep into the South, exploring the hearts of Men, both evil and good, and uncovering the plots and devices of the servants of Sauron.
- Aragorn, Appendix A

[DrDragun]

Beyond the Easterlings are the Eastererlings. And beyond them, the Easterestlings.

Good post Ngugi.

[alreadyded]

Not quite the proper spot for this thread, but I'll leave it for a little while to attract attention before it's moved over to the Submod-forum.


In a strict sense no specific data is known that may be considered canonical in the post-LotR legandarium, with the obsolete Ambarkanta-map as only depiction (which may be used for inspiration none the less, for all it's general vagueness) and Eärendil's southern travels rejected etc.

If I was to make a suggestion I would make it a high culture in it's own (a.k.a not merely 'huts in the jungle' here, while I do not fear you had that in mind at all):
Also add a Númenórean element. While The Black Númenóreans in known/Near Harad I interpet it as died out, further south there ought to be small former kingsdoms were they did merged into the native population(s), and a Far Harad faction could use that.
Beside that, I'm really not sure how they should diverse from the current Harad faction, from lore perspective that is, even if inspirations for tropical cultures are wide and avilable, such as Meso-american, Indian, African, Middle-eastern, etc.
Naturally, you may add some small good Haradrim faction, would be fun and fitting:

Wow never seen or heard of the Ambarkanta map, I always thought Tolkien never made any large scale maps (though refering to it as a "map" is being kind. So he basically just saw it as the shape of Africa, not a shocker. I was planning to use North Africa as a basis for the topography of the northern part, along with some influence from South America for some parts (rivers, forests, mountains mostly) so it is at least realistic since there is so little lore.

The Númenórean element has been handled already I think with "supposed distant descendants of ancient Númenor", "Black Guard Units - Mordor, Harad, Corsairs and Outlaws, and Variags (places of old Numenorean kingdoms as I see it) can recruit them from the highest tier recruitment buildings. Their replenishment rates are low which is one reason why there are four different units."

These are their names; Dulgî Mâkla Nagôl (Black Guard Two-Handed Swordsman), Dûr Karîb Brâgol (Mounted Black Guard), Dâur Dirnén Lagôr (Black Guard Archers with Bastard Swords), Vôrn Maéthor Hâdor (Black Guard Javelin/Spearmen), Dûr Karîb Brâgol Bodyguard (Mounted Black Guard Bodyguard). You may recognize some of the words .

I will make these available to Far Harad as well (thinking of naming the faction to Arkhûn Oymáq).

I did plan to make them tribal to some extent but not primitive compared to other men (kind of like the Avari Elves compared to other Elves I suppose, a bit rustic but not barbaric). I did want to do something unique with the campaign gameplay from all other factions, not the normal settlement upgrade crap. I plan to use tribal units from Harad and the Troll-men and Mumaks, and Slavers as well. I figured a heavy emphasis on slaving wouldn't go amiss due to the locale. Most of the units that will be faction specific will be dark skinned I think since the game has so few it will just help make them more unique from other units.

I also thought of an idea for a script to make the faction go horde so it can move somewhere else, but that may just be a optional feature for all factions (or just tribal/clan factions in the future). "Lose all regions (must own starting capital first) but gain lots of other stuff (General's/Armies, big kingspurse boost, etc.) until you capture more settlements."

For the Aragorn thing I just added a historical event long ago;

Hero of the West?
There are many rumors of a hero who took great journeys, serving in the armies of King Thengel of Rohan, and Steward Ecthelion II of Gondor. His name in Gondor and Rohan was Thorongil, and with a few Gondorian ships he led a surprise attack on the Havens of Umbar, destroying many of their ships and slaying its lord. He was last seen traveling into the far East and South towards the Mountains of Shadow... surely he has since fallen to the devices of the Dark Lord and his servants.

I do plan on scripting in some more stuff in terms of Aragorn's (and Gandalf's) adventures and influences in Middle-Earth, but that will be at a much later date if at all.


All in all I haven't spent much time thinking on it as I will not even start on it until next week at the earliest, after I finish the current release I am working on. Thanks for all the info. I didn't post in the submod forum because it isn't about a specific submod, just a place to discuss and gather some resources on the subject. I couldn't find any on the net anywhere so I figured this was worth a shot. Move it if you like, it is no matter to me. I assume the thread will be dead in a few days anyway.

So what is the version of China in Tolkein's universe, then? If you go all the way east until you hit water?

I always assumed there was some kind of Tolkien Han culture in the far east, but judging from the Ambarkanta map (not that I can make too much sense of it yet) it seems to show the Orocarni Mountains fairly close to the east coast, which would mean the Avari are probably as far east as you can go since that is where they were originally from. I could be reading it wrong though, its pretty sloppy, more of a drawing than a proper map, and I am no LOTR fanatic to know such things.

[Ngugi]

The Ambarkanta map, or perhaps sketch is a proper word hehe, I always flag as to be handled with greatest care. It's our one version of the entire world, sure, but it's a relevant hint that Tolkien did not repeat the attempt after the 1930ths, 40 years before he died.
Obvious incompatibilities between it and the world he later imagined are for example the non-existing Misty Mountains, a sea where Gondor and Mordor lies, that Harad is not at all in it's today known position and an Africa-form not really matching what the LotR-map confirm, and the existance of continents later excluded from the stories.
It's technically about as useful as many antique or medieval maps would prove to us in practice today, hehe. That said, I do deem it a basis for some unbound artistic freedom.


Sounds you have a fair vision of what you want to create.
You could also play with [effects of] either of the two Blue Wizards unless you used them already (or unless you want to avoid to use them, or unless you trust the opposit fate of them suggested in HoME 12);

I think they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Númenórean range: missionaries to 'enemy-occupied' lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.
- Letter 211

Even if not you can add something related to the Black Arts, as told by Faramir, and to that we know Queen Berúthiel (with her cats) were up to some sorcery.

`The Men of Númenor were settled far and wide on the shores and seaward regions of the Great Lands, but for the most part they fell into evils and follies. Many became enamoured of the Darkness and the black arts; some were given over wholly to idleness and ease, and some fought among themselves, until they were conquered in their weakness by the wild men.
- TTT; The Window on the West

She had nine black cats and one white, her slaves, with whom she conversed, or read their memories, setting them to discover all the dark secrets of Gondor, so that she knew those things "that men wish most to keep hidden," setting the white cat to spy upon the black, and tormenting them. ... and that King Tarannon had her set on a ship alone with her cats and set adrift on the sea before a north wind. The ship was last seen flying past Umbar under a sickle moon, with a cat at the masthead and another as a figure-head on the prow.
- UT; Istari; Notes

In DCI we use 'Sorcerers' for the Hill-men of the North, giving them the ability to frighten enemies and chant to improve own units morale, and something like that can be an idea for a Far Harad unit.
[edit: I do not bring in the Mouth of Sauron into this, because he learned sorcery first when he entered Sauron's service in Mordor]


Gandalf were in the South, though how far south is unclear, unlikley as far as Aragorn; check UT, the last part of the chapter "Istari" for a little discussion on that topic.
If you lack UT atm I can dig the quote up.

[alreadyded]

Was just thinking about this while feeding the dogs and I was thinking a unit that uses poisoned blades might fit with the area for the faction and as local rebels. Maybe make the unit really effective at killing units with little to no armor but practically useless against armored units (little defense and very low AP attack). Maybe a skirmisher unit like that too that has really low armor piercing, most javelin throwers have insanely high AP in M2TW and TATW so not sure how this would work out. Could even make them a little bit faster than other units so they are good at killing archers and not just low tier units. Would make them fill the role of cavalry to some extent since I don't see this faction as really having cavalry.

Cavalry is another thing, should they have it? Do they live in the jungles? Or the edge of it? Or on a savanna? Or near the coast? Or all? Obviously AOR units for each of these climates should be accessible to the faction (and all other appropriate factions, replenishment depending on unit type and climate I suppose). But other than nomads in and around the desert would there be no other cavalry there? I suppose the Mounted Black Guard unit and a few nomad AOR units could be enough to get by, especially with those poison units.

And there is a naptha unit as an option too. I already have one for Harad that references Far Harad;

Corsair Nahptha Bombers


Of all the malevolent works of the Southern Lands, the Naphtha Bomb is the most dastardly. Filled with flammable liquid drawn from plants found only in the southern reaches of Harad, these harmless spheres comprised of porcelain and clay become one of the most lethal weapons of the East no matter where it is deployed. The wielders of these highly volatile weapons are directly chosen by the Captain of the Corsairs and trained in the lighting of the fuses and throwing of the bombs. These men are highly mobile, motivated, and deadly.


Naffatun (grenades), hammer/axe, bracers.

Someone else came up with the unit idea and wrote the description, but it sounds like it could be plausible in Far Harad to me. So maybe a similar unit to that for Far Harad. What do you think?

The Ambarkanta map, or perhaps sketch is a proper word hehe, I always flag as to be handled with greatest care. It's our one version of the entire world, sure, but it's a relevant hint that Tolkien did not repeat the attempt after the 1930ths, 40 years before he died.
Obvious incompatibilities between it and the world he later imagined are for example the non-existing Misty Mountains, a sea where Gondor and Mordor lies, that Harad is not at all in it's today known position and an Africa-form not really matching what the LotR-map confirm, and the existance of continents later excluded from the stories.
It's technically about as useful as many antique or medieval maps would prove to us in practice today, hehe. That said, I do deem it a basis for some unbound artistic freedom.


Sounds you have a fair vision of what you want to create.
You could also play with [effects of] either of the two Blue Wizards unless you used them already (or unless you want to avoid to use them, or unless you trust the opposit fate of them suggested in HoME 12);

Even if not you can add something related to the Black Arts, as told by Faramir, and to that we know Queen Berúthiel (with her cats) were up to some sorcery.

In DCI we use 'Sorcerers' for the Hill-men of the North, giving them the ability to frighten enemies and chant to improve own units morale, and something like that can be an idea for a Far Harad unit.
[edit: I do not bring in the Mouth of Sauron into this, because he learned sorcery first when he entered Sauron's service in Mordor]


Gandalf were in the South, though how far south is unclear, unlikley as far as Aragorn; check UT, the last part of the chapter "Istari" for a little discussion on that topic.
If you lack UT atm I can dig the quote up.

It would suck to be a general or even a merchant and have to navigate using those maps you linked .

I didn't even think of the Blue Wizards for some reason, I did do something with Rhun and the Balchoth Clan with the one that went east (can't remember the name he had). Rhun has rebels that are Rhun unit. And the Balchoth are not the same religion as Mordor now due to that as well (and a few other things which are explained in the faction description). So maybe some kind of insurrection like I did with Rhun or maybe a culture switch like I did with the Balchoth, or the "good Haradrim faction" as you stated? Or? Would be nice to have something really unique but I can't think of anything off the top of my head.

A chanting unit sounds good to me. Sounds "jungle'ly", all voodoo and creepiness is what I am imagining. What do you think would fit? I can't imagine any Slaver unit having such a trait, or think of any unit other than maybe a Shaman unit from more arid climates (Carthaginian looking maybe?). In PCP I made Dread Banner units (flayed corpses on meat hooks, heads on spikes, piles of body parts, etc.) that instill fear and boost morale for all Orc and Creature factions. I don't see a unit like that fitting though even if heavy emphasis is placed on the whole slavers/bad guys thing. Maybe a monument to Sauron unit? I don't know if that fits either, they are pretty far from Mordor so how much influence would he have on them?

And would he even try to influence them? Melkor left the manipulation of Men to others because he deemed Men too few and too weak if I remember right. Sauron trusted in Men more than Orcs but would he bother with these guys? There is mention of swarthy (dark-skinned) Men in the Battle of the Pelenor, but were they on their own and from Far Harad or were they there with/serving the Haradrhim? I never really thought of it before I guess. I should re-read that chapter I suppose. Is there any other mention in the books of similar things?

I remember the Hobbit's folklore about werewyrms (or however Tolkien spells it) in the deserts. I already added Sand Wyrm rebels in the south desert on the vanilla TATW map, so I guess adding a couple more would make battling nomadic rebel factions less tedious. There is no mention of drakes other than that in the south too right?

I remember Tolkien saying that Ungoliant went far into the south (or was it southern jungles? cant remember) so adding some spiders was my game plan since her fate is unknown (other than some said she ate herself, which is just silly, no animal eats itself for food she (it) was a spirit or whatever anyway so she can't really die right? Just be sent to "the Void"? Someone told me that its written somewhere that she was killed. You mentioned "Eärendil's southern travels rejected etc." Was it from this stuff you are referring to? Is was it written by Tolkien himself at some point?

I do not have UT. Just Hobbit, LOTR, Sil, and Hurin I think. I haven't read any of them in at least the past few years. And I haven't seen the LOTR movies since they came out (though I do think they were very well produced) , and never watched the new Hobbit ones (though the book is one of my favorites since I was a child, I can remember quotes from that like a pro I've read it so many times).

[Ngugi]

I'll not ask why feeding your dogs made you think about poison, haha, but poison is fair enough; in the legendarium it's a tool used by those who have lost their noble ways.
Orcs use it, the Elves of Nargothrond when after the sons of Fëanor made them isolate themselves and no longer fight with their allies, Eöl when he tried to kill his son, and the Drúedain when fighting Orcs whom they hated (but they forbid it to be used against any other folk). For wicked men to use it makes sense.

If they live in jungle, then they should not, it's no perfered climate for horses. If they live in deserts, fine. If they live in a mixed region, make cavalry rare.
Though, it may be concluded, that if they have no cavalry, then the Mûmakil will be all the more appriciated hehe.

Well, the Istari apperently knew their chemistry (Gandalf with his fire works, Saruman with his wall buster; while they, or at least Gandalf, spiced it up with some wizardry); personally I'd say it's not wrong, though it feel very off for the setting of ME. Again, it may be excused by Blue Wizard influence somewhere sometime, or even Sauron perhaps though it make no sense he did not use it elsewhere if he bother to aquire the knowledge about it, that's my 2 cents.

[alreadyded]

The "Later Writings" on this page support some kind of insurrection being relatively successful. I don't know anything about the book. It seems there is quite a bit more lore on the subject than I knew.

[Ngugi]

Yup, the theories we have on the Blues are based on the two very different quotes/notes, the one from Letter 211 that believed them to fallen like Saruman, and the one from Last Writings that speculated they did their job succesfully but in lands we have no records from.

Which one you acknowledge is a matter of taste really, though it should be said the 'good' version partly is in opposition to what is [generally] accepted as canon, provided in the Appendicies, and really all other texts: that all Istari arrived a millenia into the Third Age, and not already in the Second Age. I pondered shortly to use them for DCI based on Last Writings, but it would been a contradiction to what I consider ME's history so dropped that.
Personally I still prefere the 'good' version, applied to the Third Age that is; or at the least a mix of the two theories.

[alreadyded]

Well I guess a nice script with choices that lead to different outcomes is in order for all the Eastern and Southern factions.

I have a very much WIP progress idea I typed up real quick;

-Isengard faction dependent script;

Use Palantir for...? (yes/no)


Invest in Industry? (yes/no)


Chop down neighboring forests to fuel industry? (yes/no)


Use Palantir for...? (yes/no)


Manipulate Dunlendings? (yes/no)


Use Palantir for...? (yes/no)


Raids on Rohan? (yes/no)


Use Palantir for...? (yes/no)


Breed Orcs? (yes/no)


Use Palantir for...? (yes/no)

Using the palantir the last time will lead to an Ultimatum from Sauron in which you will have to ally with the bad guys (as well as change your culture, etc.) or have them all declare war on you.

In this case all the yes's are obviously the naughty Saurman, no's would lead to Saruman not being replaced by Gandalf I suppose.
-

Something like this for Far Harad could work to allow a choice of basically whether to support the worship of Morgoth or not. With the Blue Wizards being the or not.

They are still alive I suppose, but I always figured they died trying or at best basically became selfish like Rad did. Would they ever be on Sauron's side or just on their own? Lots to work with here.

[danny X]

I found this map a while back, it might help.

[alreadyded]

I found this map a while back, it might help.

I do like this one, especially the very far south, that would look quite unique and exotic in Middle-Earth. The current sketch I made does look quite similar to this. I'll sketch it out real quick and see how much I can squeeze into the south.

[Araval]

You might want to have a look at Spice Master's map here: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...testers-needed
And his faction ideas here: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...r-Middle-Earth!

[alreadyded]

Oh wow and the download still works . Usually the links don't work anymore by the time I hear about things... 3 years later .

That is a nice map. There was also a New Shores one I think, unless the two are the same. Can't find any images of that though.

[Araval]

I don't think they are the same. Spice Master concerning using his work in other mods: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ion&highlight=

Remembered there was also this project: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...8-Extended-map

[Tar-Falassion]

What I think would also be an excellent idea for factions implanted in the Far South of Middle Earth would be to illustrate the identity crisis of these peoples, between the former Numenorean colons and overlords, the dark influence of Sauron, and their own customs.
The best way to show this imo would be the possibility to build different religious buildings, each giving points to a given religion, and defining the faction's alignment and allegiance

(if a Far-Haradrim faction could choose between returning to their ancestral deities and be somewhat neutral, turn to the ways of the Black Numenoreans and fall to the worship of Melkor, or retaining the ways of the Kings' Men and keep worshipping Eru but still have some serious superiority complex toward their Faithful cousins as well as the Near-Haradrim, it would give real dynamism to an old Numenorean colony where the Exiled mixed with local population.)

Other than that you could also use independant armies of the Shadow (the Serpent Horde) to hire for one specific conquest, or underground cults of the Dark that could be used as spies or assassins (you would have to build guild mansions to hire an assassin, for one contract at the time, as even if the assassin succeeds he goes back to the ranks of his cult and has to be hired again - could be a way to avoid overuse of these agents)

But no matter the outcome, it would be fun to see the Haradrim having to defend themselves from the South too