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Thread: Information on the forces of the late Yaun dynasty, the Red Turban rebels, and other rival rebel groups?

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    Default Information on the forces of the late Yaun dynasty, the Red Turban rebels, and other rival rebel groups?

    Is there a good source for an overview of the events of the Red Turban rebellion from a military perspective, or notable battles?

    The only significant battle I can find on Wikipedia is the Battle of Lake Poyang, which seems to have been a rather interesting combined naval and siege battle between the Red Turbans and a rival rebel group, the Dahan.

    So what was the composition of forces like? Did the Yaun retain a sort of Mongolian-style army, with 10,000-troop Tumens with subdivisions being powers of 10, with an emphasis on cavalry? Or had the Yaun army become something rather different by this time?

    What about the Red Turban rebels? Were they predominantly foot soldiers with spears and matchlock guns or crossbows, or did they have a similar composition to the Yaun army, or what?

    Did the Black Plague affect the heartlands of the Yaun more severely than it affected southern China, leaving them with a depleted logistical base and manpower reserves compared to southern-based rebels?
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    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Information on the forces of the late Yaun dynasty, the Red Turban rebels, and other rival rebel groups?

    As far as sources go, I'm not sure about any books dedicated entirely to the Red Turban Rebellion preceding the Ming Dynasty, although you might want to look at the Cambridge History of China, Volume 7 for a general overview of it.

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    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default Re: Information on the forces of the late Yaun dynasty, the Red Turban rebels, and other rival rebel groups?

    Unfortunately when it comes to the Yuan and Ming dynasties I can't seem to find very many sources (in English at least). If I happen to find more than one chances are they are mostly the same. I suppose I could try to find some. I have yet to find any book that goes into the Red Turban Revolt with much detail. As far as battles are concerned the thing is that the revolts were so wide spread and had so many various groups and leaders that deconstructing what happened in each area would have be a challenge (basically there was not just one Red Turban group, it was on a regional basis so different leaders).
    The leaders of the Red Turbans filled the power vacuum that the Mongols left behind along and south of the Yangtze and made their own warlord states and in many cases were killed and replaced by a subordinate. By about 1358 the Red Turbans were more or less gone and former Red Turbans like Chen Youliang established a state called Great Han in the west Yangtze centered around Jiangzhou, Zhu Yuanzhang also a Red Turban made a state called Wu in the centre around Nanjing and in the east Yangtze Zhang Shicheng made a state called Great Zhou around Suzhou.
    Of course there were many other warlords below the Yangtze in various provinces and in areas like Tibet and Yunnan there were Mongol warlords which pledged allegiance to the Yuan dynasty (such as Bolud Temur).

    So aside from these other minor warlords the main three along the Yangtze were just going back and forth in a sort of long attrition war from 1358 until 1363 (being along the Yangtze river fleets played a major role in all operations, even sieges). Chen Youliang was also extending his power into Sichuan and Shaanxi while he fought the Ming/Wu in the east, however in 1359 Chen Youliang killed his lord Xu Shouhui and overthrew the Tianmen state establishing the Great Han. Ming Yuzhen who led Xu Shouhui's forces in Shaanxi, Yunnan and Sichuan rebelled and declared his own state there called the Xia. Zhu Yuanzhang meanwhile was fighting the Ming/Wu both against Chen Youliang to his west and Zhang Shicheng to his east. The Yuan dynasty was also experiencing problems as certain Mongol generals had challenged the dynasty therefore the Yuan could not intervene in the south (such as Bolod in Shanxi). In 1360 Chen Youliang tried to invade Ming/Wu and was defeated at Lung-wan (Wade Giles Romanization) and retreated. The major battle occurred in 1363 when Chen Youliang returned and with his massive ships sailed into Lake Poyang and besieged Nanchang, the city held out and eventually the Ming/Wu defeated and killed Youliang in a counter attack.

    From then on the Ming/Wu went on the offensive and defeated the Chen's Great Han state in 1365 then defeated Zhang Shicheng's Great Zhou by 1367, both campaigns involved long sieges, notably the siege of Suzhou which caused the collapse of the Great Zhou and the death of Zhang Shicheng. After securing the Yangtze Zhu Yuanzhang sent armies southwards and a massive army to conquer the Yuan capital Dadu (or Beiping as Zhu Yuanzhang named it) in 1368 thus starting the Ming Dynasty and becoming Emperor Hongwu. Immediately after that the Ming armies went west to conquer Shanxi, Shaanxi and Gansu while the armies in the south went on to pacify the provinces below the Yangtze and invade Sichuan and Yunnan. For instance the Ming invaded Sichuan and fought a battle at Ch'u-t'ang Gorge (Wade Giles again) in 1371 in which general Liao Yung Chung defeated a Shu defensive position in a combined land and naval operation.
    Around the same time Xu Da was sent to invade Mongolia proper although Mongolia could not be garrisoned or annexed by the Ming. In the early 1380's Hongwu sent campaigns to conquer Yunnan and fight the pro-Yuan warlords led by Basalawarmi and to pacify the independent minded tribes in the area. Other than that Hongwu spent the rest of his reign until his death in 1398 trying to consolidate his rule over China and sending armies on counter insurgency campaigns against Mongol and Jurchen rebels and raiders along the northern frontiers and rebellious tribes along the south.
    Last edited by Lord Oda Nobunaga; June 01, 2015 at 06:45 PM.

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