My way of defeating desertion on Crusades

[chris watton]

Last night, I decided to get ready for the inevitable Crusade call by firstly amassing my holks together (about 12) and putting a decent army and 2 generals on it. It took quite a few turns to get to the Antioch area (especially as normal non crusade speed!), but get there I did. I left my army on the fleet off the coast until the Pope called for a Crusade on Antioch – excellent! I grouped my army into two, with a general in each and swelled them to full capacity once I clicked the ‘Join Crusade’ button. I not only took Antioch, but also Edessa and Damascus!
This is one way to defeat the dreaded desertion nightmare when on a crusade – plan ahead! (Your own units don't have to be great, due to the better Crusading units you can hire once there)

Playing as England, by the way..

[Beiss]

The only time my soldiers have deserted me is when I put them on one of my boats. Using a mercenary galley was apparently not a promblem, however... :hmmm: I guess CA have forgotten to program the crusading troops to know being on a boat is alright, but for some reason, the mercenary boats are ok.

[chris watton]

Yes, but if you dont hit the 'join crusade' button until you have already sailed to near the target, there will be no desertions. I didn't hit the 'join crusade' button until I was knocking on Antiochs' doorstep.

[Aldaris]

Actually, the only time I ever had deserters on a crusade was when I was playing as England - and only during the time it took to sail around spain, because I was technically going in the wrong direction at the time. So far, I have tried numerous crusades with the Milanese, French and HRE (starting from Bologna), and I never had any deserters... I usually declare the army "crusader" right before I enter the transport fleet and head straight for the target from there. Seems to work. One thing to note: when klicking right on the target shore and letting the fleet "autosail" there, that movement order may get cancelled when the fleet meets an obstacle on the way - for example an enemy ship. If one does not continue from there, I imagine that might cause desertions.

[Markas]

Didn't crusades gather in southern Italy? It only takes a few 'crusade-movement' turns to get to the holy land from there. I think if I'd had to travel with a bunch of smelly pilgrims and arrogant knights from England to Antioch I'd desert pretty quickly.

[vikrant]

moved to battle planning section
share ur experience

[Soryn Arkayn]

I've discovered that Crusaders will inevitably desert on long crusades, whether they're by land or across sea. But on shorter distance crusades (less than 5 turns), as long as you progress toward your objective every turn the Crusaders won't desert. I only encountered problems when I had to detour around an obstacle and backtrack; the next turn I lost 5 units to desertion.

I realize that desertion was chronic problem on Crusades, but I feel that CA hasn't balanced it correctly. There needs to be more leniency in regards to desertion; meaning the game needs to give you a break and not desert just because you have to turn around for one turn or if it simply takes a long time to reach your objective. Also, I don't think that whole units should desert, because this isn't realistic. I preferred it in M:TW when maybe a dozen or so would desert at a time, rather than the whole unit. I'm not saying the whole units shouldn't be able to desert, but only in extreme circumstances (like if you try to attack a non-excommunicated Catholic faction that isn't the Crusade's target).

[FriendoftheDork]

I agree Soryn, crusading units should suffer attrition, not wholesale desertion.

[Metellus]

"(like if you try to attack a non-excommunicated Catholic faction that isn't the Crusade's target)"

Do they do that, though? Desert if the Crusader attacks a non-ex Catholic faction. Just wondering since I often have Crusader AI armies arching across my lands that I am at war with...

[Soryn Arkayn]

I'm not sure if AI Crusade armies can attack non-excommed factions that aren't their Crusade target, but I know that YOU can order your Crusade army to do that.

The reason is simple: historically, a Crusade had a certain objective, like "recover Jerusalem from the Muslim infidels". However, the Crusaders didn't just land in the Holy Land and march straight for Jerusalm. During the First Crusade, the Crusaders fought many battles: Nicaea, Dorylaeum, Antioch, Jerusalem, and Ascalon. This is basic strategy and logistics: you can't just capture an objective deep inside enemy territory, you have to go step-by-step securing strategic points so that your supply lines can reach you after you've punched a salient into enemy territory -- otherwise you're COMPLETELY surrounded and cut off from supply and reinforcements.

Therefore, it makes sense that your Crusader army CAN and should attack settlements en route to its objective, whether it's your Crusade enemy or not. After all, the First Crusade was in response to the Turks aggression against the Byzantines at Constantinople, but the Byzantines were Orthodox and the Papal States' rivals. The Pope wasn't concerned for the Byzantines well-being; instead he saw an opportunity to rally the armies of Christendom against the Muslims. In a later Crusade, Crusaders actually sacked Constantinople on their way back from the Holy Lands.

So my point about Crusading Armies attacking non-excommed non-Crusade target factions is valid. I think that if your Crusade army attacked a non-excommed Catholic faction, then your Crusaders might justifiably desert. However, if you attack an Orthodox or Muslim faction than they shouldn't -- unless you suffer a grevious defeat. But if you're victorious, your Crusaders would be in high spirits, especially after razing, raping, and plundering, so it wouldn't make sense for them to desert because they'd be pumped up, confident, and eager to do it all over again.

Basically, my point is that desertion SHOULD occur, but presently it's occuring at the wrong time for the wrong reasons.

Here's my list of justified and unjustified desertion:

Desertion SHOULDN'T occur:
- if the Crusade's objective is far away and it takes a long time to reach;
- if you have to stop or backtrack (for whatever reason) for ONE turn;
- if you attack and WIN against any ex-commed Catholic faction or non-Catholic faction en route to the Crusade's objective;
- if you're attacked by ANY faction en route to the Crusade objective.

Desertion SHOULD occur:
- if you delay the advance to the Crusade objective for more than ONE turn;
- if you attack a non-excommed Catholic faction with your Crusader army;
- if you suffer a crushing defeat;
- if you're excommunicated (for whatever reason) during a Crusade.

I'm sure they're other reasons why desertion should and and shouldn't occur, but those are all I can think of at the moment. I think those reasons are justified and make sense; unfortunately CA didn't abide by those reasons when they designed Crusading in M2:TW. As I mentioned before, it doesn't make sense to make desertion so prevalent because Crusades are challenging enough already because you're sending an army deep into enemy territory against vastly superior numbers, while leaving your own territory less defended. So we don't need rampant desertion screwing us over and deterring us from embarking on Crusades!

[diomedesbc]

I went on Crusade for Antioch and suffered massive desertion just as I landed on the shores of Antioch! And then to top it all off Milan beat me to it by one turn! And what good is having your Cardinal Pope, he won't even do anything for me and after having spend nearly $20,000 on his election.

[Ambrosius]

i never have problems with desertions.
it seems that as long as you move the maximum amount of movement points toward your crusade target, and dont stop to siege a city, etc, then you should be fine. just keep moving and youll be fine.

[Lavastein]

I'm not sure if AI Crusade armies can attack non-excommed factions that aren't their Crusade target, but I know that YOU can order your Crusade army to do that.

oh it happens, i had milan attacking me for no reason when they were on crusades.


and i highly doubt that units that i recruit from the motherland should be able to simply desert from my army because of the crusades. these men belong to me and me alone. If i recruit pilgrims and crusader sargents fine, but not my men.

[Soryn Arkayn]

i never have problems with desertions.
it seems that as long as you move the maximum amount of movement points toward your crusade target, and dont stop to siege a city, etc, then you should be fine. just keep moving and youll be fine.

In my experience, you're safe from desertions if your Crusader army follows the most direct route toward its objective and it's not TOO FAR away (5 turns or less). But if you have to stop (like you're caught in the area of influence by a Rebel or Neutral army stack) or back-track to detour around an obstacle, you'll suffer desertions the next turn.

That's why IMO the Crusade system is faulty. It's not really "broken", it's just too strict and makes crusading -- especially LONG Crusades from Western Europe to the Holy Lands -- frustratingly difficult. As others have mentioned, usually by the time the Crusader army reaches its objective there's only the General's unit left in the stack and the rest of the Crusaders have deserted. And the only solution is to hold off on having your army JOIN the Crusade until it nears the objective. I kinda wish that stop-gap solution didn't exist, because as long as there's a way to work around the Crusading-desertion problem the Creative Assembly will NEVER FIX IT!

[Lavastein]

also a problem is that when my general dies the entire expedition is considered leaving the crusade. so if i do not take a city next turn my army deserts. unfair when im fighting egyptians near jerusalem. if i didnt have siege equipment built already i would have seen my entire army run like cowards.

R.I.P Micheal

killed in battle by a spear militia man. France weeps for the soul of (an honestly worthless general who thought he was always sick, no command rating, and low loyalty) a warrior who gave his life on a crusade

[estopa2006]

i love pretending to go to the crusades, i play with england and move my precrusader units all the way up to ireland then join the crusade, (dont forget to have a siege weapon with you to slow you down even more) then i move slug-style and find that the crusade is over even before i reach italy! by then i have a large force with crusader units, extra xp points and cash courtesy of the pope. then i use that force to invade poland =)

[lawngnome]

I've never had a problem with deserters... France, Venice, Denmark... I just... move. I save every turn because of the horror stories, though. I always take my own ships there and get to the Holy Land in 5-ish turns with no desertions.

Oh, I even spent 2 turns capturing Rhodes as the Venitians (as a council of Nobles mission, figured I would take care of it) and had no deserters... left 3 units of fanatics behind, and onward to Jerusalem I went.

[SavageFlyer]

Yeah, actually the Pope totally screwed me on a Crusade recently. I was the Scots and decided that when the old boy declared a crusade on antioch it would be amusing to me if it was taken by men in kilts storming a middle-eastern fortress. gotta love this game.

So anyway I was sailing over there when the Pope THEN asked me to blockade genoa, so I did with my crusader fleet. well after about two turns of this nearly HALF of my army (and most of my knights!) just left. jerks.

Needless to say, after hiring some mercs I took antioch and now the cross of david is flying over the battlements but the Pope is annoying. The nice thing was that I got a Knights Templar guild in York which has been quite usefull is crushing the pesky Normans.

[OG Grenadier]

Is there still a 20 unit limit per stack with crusading armies? IIRC in MTW1 there was no limit to the number of units appearing in the stack (just that 20 was the max for battles with the remainder coming in as reinforcements)?

Or have I lost my mind?

[Soryn Arkayn]

No, in M2:TW you can't have more than 20 units per stack, even if it's a Crusader army.

Don't get my started about the omission of a proper Reinforcement system in Medieval 2!!