(At least) Angry Joe is Going to a Warhammer Demo from CA at E3, post other confirmations here!

[PointOfViewGun]

Oh come on mate, I'm streching a hand out to you here. Can we have a nice conversation for once?

And no, that is not correct, I really had no clue about the point you wanted to make. I also said that I don't like to apply generalizations to so many people and I stand by it.

Is that even in doubt? Of course the general sentiment of the TWC community can't be applied to everyone. I've always seen TWC regarded as a small vocal minority, definately not as representative of the thoughts of the entire customer base. Hell, we can't even agree on anything ourselves...

When did I ever question that anyways? Don't you think that it would be a bit contradictory of me if I said that when I've stated several times that I don't like to generalize?

No doubt? Then you're arguing against the wrong person. It was Tiberius that assumed there to be a case. This comment makes it quite strange that you've been talking to me exclusively.

Are you making reference to the same poll in which 42% said they still played and enjoyed the game... while about 160% said they'd stopped playing it for a variety of other negative reasons? I would have thought the fact it incorporated only 812 votes from these forums alone would have ruled it out in your books.

Come back to me when you have some half-decent data (other than sales info) to support your theory of Rome 2's enduring popularity and we can continue this conversation

160%? I wish I didn't catch this quick so that you had the time to realize the failure in this to avoid the embarrassment. No. There isn't 160% of people. You should have caught that. You're not supposed to add them up. Oh boy. It's a multiple choice poll. Meaning people can choose multiple reasons for why they stopped playing. In that poll, 42.49% enjoyed and kept playing the game. The rest, 57.51%, stopped playing for various singular or multiple reasons. I provided that poll when you talked about people's general reaction on the forums. Given that it's a poll from TWC with one of the most responds, if not the most, it's quite better than many others to say something about what TWC community thinks. So, you gotta first read what I say based on the context I say them. Otherwise, this will be a very childish discussion.

So your point is that user reviews for Rome 2 are all negative because only disappointed users wrote them, whereas happy players just kept to themselves. According to this strange logic, that would mean that every single user review for a past TW game should have been the same. Yet Shogun 2 scored 8.3 on metacritic, Empire had an acceptable 6.9, while Rome 2 scored a disastrous 4.1.

You accuse other people of discarding sources that don't support their argument, yet perform the exact thing the the same paragraph!

That's another interesting argument. If the game sells well, then the game is inherently good, right? But a game doesn't need to be good to sell large numbers of copies. Look at the Call of Duty series for example. The vast majority of reviewers out there say the series is getting more boring, uninspired and bland with each new game. It doesn't mean the games aren't selling well of course.
A terrible game won't sell well, of course. But a disappointing, poorly designed and uninspired game with a few bugs can still sell very well if it comes from a well-established franchise.
Rome 2 ticks all of those boxes.

I don't want to come off as aggressively targeting you, but this is a final point I would like you to explain in more detail. What exactly are those inaccuracies, exaggerations and trivial arguments in his reviews? That's the second or third time you've used that line in this thread without explaining yourself further.

No, the point isn't that only disappointed users wrote reviews. The point is that inclinations create biased results. Bad points contribute more to creation of bad reviews compared to good points contributing to creation of good reviews. Criticizers are more inclined to talk about it compared to praisers. Rome II has 1769 user reviews, Shogun II has 263, and Empire has 821 reviews. I doubt even these are in sync with the number of players for each game... If game A is even slightly more buggy than game B that will produce more negative reviews for game A out of proportion of the amount of people that like it or dislike it. So, Rome II will get more negative reviews because it was more buggy compared to Shogun II and Empire. However, it would be wrong to claim that the entire player community feels the same as the proportion between 4.1, 8.3 and 6.9. Then we're actually talking about a small community of reviewers. Small because Rome II is sold over 800 thousand units.

Sigh. You manage to put words in my mouth while quoting me saying that I'm not saying that. Bravo! I don't even know how to respond to such a failure.

I will not talk about the specifics of what's wrong in Angry Joe's reviews. I simply provided why I thought his reviews to be rubbish. If you want to discuss that you an open a new thread.

[Fredrin]

In that poll, 42.49% enjoyed and kept playing the game. The rest, 57.51%, stopped playing for various singular or multiple reasons.

My bad. I had no idea that was the poll's format seeing as there's nothing to indicate that from the results page and assumed it totted up to 200% for whatever reason.

But now I'm even more confused because you're saying that TWC is not the anti-Rome extremist HQ you were making it out to be before... Bit of a reversal, no?

[frenchyvinnie]

160%? I wish I didn't catch this quick so that you had the time to realize the failure in this to avoid the embarrassment.

True, he made a mistake when reading this poll (I actually think he read the poll correctly, but the poll was incorrectly or imprecisely labelled, but whatever). Nevertheless, his point still stands.
His argument was that instead of supporting your point that Rome 2 was good game that the majority of players enjoyed playing, this poll actually proved that most players had dropped this game due to various bugs and other issues.

And a final note: please be more courteous when writing your posts. Using terms like "embarrassment", "childish" and "you should have caught that" isn't very nice to Tiberius. Maybe I'm just paranoid, but judging from the frustrated posts from other users responding to you, I can't help but think you are starting to annoy a lot of users who are more than willing to debate peacefully and nicely with you.

[PointOfViewGun]

My bad. I had no idea that was the poll's format seeing as there's nothing to indicate that from the results page and assumed it totted up to 200% for whatever reason.

But now I'm even more confused because you're saying that TWC is not the anti-Rome extremist HQ you were making it out to be before... Bit of a reversal, no?

Where did I make TWC the anti-Rome extremist HQ?

True, he made a mistake when reading this poll (I actually think he read the poll correctly, but the poll was incorrectly or imprecisely labelled, but whatever). Nevertheless, his point still stands.
His argument was that instead of supporting your point that Rome 2 was good game that the majority of players enjoyed playing, this poll actually proved that most players had dropped this game due to various bugs and other issues.

And a final note: please be more courteous when writing your posts. Using terms like "embarrassment", "childish" and "you should have caught that" isn't very nice to Tiberius. Maybe I'm just paranoid, but judging from the frustrated posts from other users responding to you, I can't help but think you are starting to annoy a lot of users who are more than willing to debate peacefully and nicely with you.

If people are getting annoyed with my language its because I'm getting annoyed by the quality of their arguments... You need to first read what I say properly though. I never used these information to argue that Rome II is a good game. I used them to argue that a lot more people than some people here think think that it's a good game. 42.49% is in no way close to the picture some people try to paint. Those people often argue that those that like this game is a small minority. That there is this silent consensus that this game is bad. That its beyond doubt that people don't like this game. What that poll suggests is that it's much more head to head with more positive light on the 42.49% part as it could have been improved with the patches.

[frenchyvinnie]

If people are getting annoyed with my language its because I'm getting annoyed by the quality of their arguments...

Then simply keep in mind that this is exactly what might be happening to other people conversing with you: being annoyed by the quality (or lack thereof) of your arguments. Always keep your mind open to other people's opinions. If you think they lack thought and quality, then see it as a chance to prove your point. Being condescending or even slightly mean will only raise people against you and weaken your argumentation.

Back on topic, I agree with you that 42% doesn't sound like a small minority. But it still sounds very disappointing for a TW game, especially when considering that the poll was conducted on TWC, of all places.

Is it any wonder then, that TWC members look up to AJ, waiting for his opinions about TW Warhammer? He was disappointed by Rome 2, like most of us. I wager that his opinions about this future game will also be valid information for us.

[PointOfViewGun]

Then simply keep in mind that this is exactly what might be happening to other people conversing with you: being annoyed by the quality (or lack thereof) of your arguments. Always keep your mind open to other people's opinions. If you think they lack thought and quality, then see it as a chance to prove your point. Being condescending or even slightly mean will only raise people against you and weaken your argumentation.

Back on topic, I agree with you that 42% doesn't sound like a small minority. But it still sounds very disappointing for a TW game, especially when considering that the poll was conducted on TWC, of all places.

Is it any wonder then, that TWC members look up to AJ, waiting for his opinions about TW Warhammer? He was disappointed by Rome 2, like most of us. I wager that his opinions about this future game will also be valid information for us.

I really don't care about what people feel. Simple. Nor am I the first person to use a slightly harsh language in this forum or even in this thread. So, pardon me if don't really care about this fake moral struggle.

The poll being conducted on TWC means that it was more like biased towards negativity as there are more attached people here. I'd assume that outside of gaming forums like this, dedicated to Total War, people are more objective, relatively. You also have a great potential in that poll as about 20 to 30 percent said to have stopped playing because of bus. Patches could have fixed that and the number of people that went back and continued to play the game could go as high as 70-80%. To be able to say whether it's a disappointing though I'd have to see similar numbers for other games. Though, if you look at global achievements for Total War games you don't see great difference. A lot of people argue how great Shogun II was but even that game only has 37.3% achieving the The Army On The March achievement (winning 25 land battles).

I'm also a TWC member and I have a different opinion than some other people. What's so mind-bugging about that that people had to whine about it for pages?

[frenchyvinnie]

I'm also a TWC member and I have a different opinion than some other people. What's so mind-bugging about that that people had to whine about it for pages?

There's nothing mind-bugging about your opinion. It is perfectly fine for you to have an opinion against the majority of other players. This is not the purpose of this debate. We are debating Rome 2's degree of quality. More precisely, we are debating what the majority of players think of Rome 2. Some people think that this opinion is mediocre. You argue on the contrary that most people have a better opinion of the game.

This is by no means a meaningless debate, although it is certainly not worth any whining, which has thankfully not occurred in this thread yet.

[DavidtheDuke]

There's nothing mind-bugging about your opinion. It is perfectly fine for you to have an opinion against the majority of other players. This is not the purpose of this debate. We are debating Rome 2's degree of quality. More precisely, we are debating what the majority of players think of Rome 2. Some people think that this opinion is mediocre. You argue on the contrary that most people have a better opinion of the game.

This is by no means a meaningless debate, although it is certainly not worth any whining, which has thankfully not occurred in this thread yet.

I don't really think the majority of players know much about Rome 2, I'd imagine many/most stopping playing it at most a week into owning it. And many of them didn't know what was lost in previous TW or warped or horrible compared to before. But the marketplace is a democracy of wallet opening not subject to the whims of hardcore fans on a TW forum.

[PointOfViewGun]

There's nothing mind-bugging about your opinion. It is perfectly fine for you to have an opinion against the majority of other players. This is not the purpose of this debate. We are debating Rome 2's degree of quality. More precisely, we are debating what the majority of players think of Rome 2. Some people think that this opinion is mediocre. You argue on the contrary that most people have a better opinion of the game.

This is by no means a meaningless debate, although it is certainly not worth any whining, which has thankfully not occurred in this thread yet.

We're not debating Rome II's degree of quality in any shape or form. I don't know how you get a conversation you're trying to be part of so wrong even though it's been told to you multiple times... Oh, whining did happen alright...

[frenchyvinnie]

We're not debating Rome II's degree of quality in any shape or form. I don't know how you get a conversation you're trying to be part of so wrong even though it's been told to you multiple times... Oh, whining did happen alright...

Were you even REMOTELY aware I was defending you in the previous post?

[HigoChumbo]

Guys, this is not only getting quite off-topic, it's starting to look like it's going nowhere.

[DavidtheDuke]

Were you even REMOTELY aware I was defending you in the previous post?

That would require him to be non-combative or admit AJ might have some sort of use to the community ^^ (don't bother replying Setekh I'm just a random guy and you're actually correct and you know it!)

Guys, this is not only getting quite off-topic, it's starting to look like it's going nowhere.

Well consider who we're talking to. At least we really dug out any conceivable reason for why AJ would've been useless, and you yourself laid out the criticisms I found with his style and any useful information that was gleaned from the interview (not much). I suppose we are at the end of the thread's usefulness.