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Thread: Roman Architecture as a Tracer of Roman History

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    Default Roman Architecture as a Tracer of Roman History

    Hey everybody,

    I am currently writing an essay on the development of Roman Architecture, and using Roman Architecture/Archeology as a tracer of Roman history. I have currently written up to around 50 B.C.E, and plan to cover the period up until around 650 C.E. (after 476 covering both the ERE and the Ostrogothic Kingdom). Each architectural work or event is used as a marker of Roman development, or a metaphor for some Roman ideal. So far I have covered these topics:

    Early Rome (c.650 B.C.E.) and the development of the early Roman Republic
    First Temple of Castor and Pollux and the solidification of the Republic
    The Gallic Sack of Rome (c.390 B.C.E.) and Roman Recovery/Development
    The Via Appia and Aqua Appia and Roman Infrastructure
    Temple of Jupiter Stator and the solidification of Roman Power in the Mediterranean
    Theater of Pompey and the Rise of the General-Dictator

    And I have these topics planned:

    Forum of Caesar and the end of the Republic
    De Architectura and Roman Ideals
    The Colosseum, Circus Maximus, Pax Romana, and Bread and Games policies

    Unfortunately, I don't know much about Roman development after the Second Triumvirate, and I know even less about Roman Architecture after this date. I was wondering if you guys could help me find topics and buildings to write about. I would like to write about these topics:

    Decline of the Empire
    Civil Issues and Class Conflict
    Rise of Christianity
    Rise of the East
    Defensive Strategies/Mindsets of Late Rome
    Roman Philosophy
    Ostrogothic Kingdom

    But I don't know which architecturally significant buildings to use to describe these concepts and events. Do you have any ideas? Also, are there any topics you feel I should add or remove from this list?

    Thank you guys so much,
    Jacob

  2. #2
    Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Roman Architecture as a Tracer of Roman History

    I realize this is probably something you've already stumbled upon, but if not then perhaps some inspiration or even better some sources might come from this Yale lecture series.

    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...B3059E45654BCE

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    Default Re: Roman Architecture as a Tracer of Roman History

    The most important event in architectural terms of the later Roman empire was the founding of Constantinople, and subsequent building programs by Theodosius and Justinian. The aqueducts, the walls, the hagia sophia, and the hippodrome, are the most important buildings. Those would be great for nearly all the things on your list.
    A new mobile phone tower went up in a town in the USA, and the local newspaper asked a number of people what they thought of it. Some said they noticed their cellphone reception was better. Some said they noticed the tower was affecting their health.

    A local administrator was asked to comment. He nodded sagely, and said simply: "Wow. And think about how much more pronounced these effects will be once the tower is actually operational."

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    Default Re: Roman Architecture as a Tracer of Roman History

    Do you plan looking at antecedents? Eg Hellenic/Hellenistic forms adopted by the Romans, such as the Basilica?

    Edit maybe the topic of Islam in the architectural sphere of Rome? Those square and dome mosques are a wonderful continuation of an older theme.
    Last edited by Cyclops; May 29, 2015 at 12:11 AM.
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    Default Re: Roman Architecture as a Tracer of Roman History

    For early Rome, you could focus on Vitruvius, who in turn focuses on Greek architects and mathematicians or philosophers. Of the 'Vitruvian man' fame, obviously
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Roman Architecture as a Tracer of Roman History

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Do you plan looking at antecedents? Eg Hellenic/Hellenistic forms adopted by the Romans, such as the Basilica?

    Edit maybe the topic of Islam in the architectural sphere of Rome? Those square and dome mosques are a wonderful continuation of an older theme.
    Roman basilicas are a very independent development. I don't know if an analogue building existed in the hellenistic kingdoms, but it didn't look like the roman one.

    About the OP, I'd urgue to see the Yale course already posted. It doesn't go as far in time as you want, but it's excellenet. It cover some of the topics you're looking info about. I'm hardly an expert in the subject, but I'll say a couple of things:

    Rise of Christianity: Check the Basilica of Maxentius. It was a new design for basilicas that drew from roman baths construction and set the template for Christian basilicas. Such as St. Peter.

    Rise of the East: You can look at the Hagia Sophia and how it's clearly a roman building but also clearly different from those of the earlier empire. The change of material (concrete was never popular in the east) shows this very well. Also, the so called "Temple of Minerva Medica" is a great building that illustrates the changes that moved roman architecture from, say, the Pantheon to the Hagia Sophia. It feels like a mid term between the two.
    "We will bring Rome to them not because of the strength of our legions, but because we are right"

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    Default Re: Roman Architecture as a Tracer of Roman History

    Quote Originally Posted by sanbourne View Post
    Roman basilicas are a very independent development. I don't know if an analogue building existed in the hellenistic kingdoms, but it didn't look like the roman one.
    ...
    Sorry for the delay replying, I am on leave and AFK with my baby most of the time.

    Basilikon is a Hellenic word for an administrative building with a formalised collonaded layout adopted wholesale (the word and form) by the Romans. EG there was a Basilikon Stoa in Athens in the 5th century.
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    Default Re: Roman Architecture as a Tracer of Roman History

    What about the Limes infrastructure in Britannia and Germania? Roman Legion Forts and Roman colonial architecture during the expansion of the empire? There are plenty of examples in cities founded as Roman colonies whose buildings emulate Roman examples in a standardised way.

    For the rise of Christianity in particular perhaps Constantine's Basilica in the town of Trier. Trier was his residence before he settled in the east and his mother Helena sent the supposes relics of the True Cross there.
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    Default Re: Roman Architecture as a Tracer of Roman History

    For the Ostrogothic Kingdom (no one has mentioned it yet) the Mausoleum of Theoderic should be a fitting building. The Ostrogothic king, who used Gothic military, but retained many Roman traditions in Italy, had it built shortly before his own death in 520 AD- he died in 526 AD.
    "Pompeius, after having finished the war against Mithridates, when he went to call at the house of Poseidonios, the famous teacher of philosophy, forbade the lictor to knock at the door, as was the usual custom, and he, to whom both the eastern and the western world had yielded submission, ordered the fasces to be lowered before the door of science."

    Pliny the Elder, Naturalis Historia, 7, 112

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    Default Re: Roman Architecture as a Tracer of Roman History

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Sorry for the delay replying, I am on leave and AFK with my baby most of the time.

    Basilikon is a Hellenic word for an administrative building with a formalised collonaded layout adopted wholesale (the word and form) by the Romans. EG there was a Basilikon Stoa in Athens in the 5th century.
    Could you elaborate more on this? Give some sources about this development?


    http://stephenjressler.com/portfolio...ilica-at-fano/

    This was the Basilica designed by Vitruvius, its open space is only possible because of wooden trusses suppoting the roof, the greeks didn't know how to build trusses. So an open space like that becomes impossible, and that was a problem in greek engineering, designing big open interior spaces. And that's soemthing at the core of a roman basilica.
    Last edited by sanbourne; July 07, 2015 at 08:42 PM.
    "We will bring Rome to them not because of the strength of our legions, but because we are right"

    "The Romans had left marble and stone, brick and glory."

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    Default Re: Roman Architecture as a Tracer of Roman History

    Quote Originally Posted by sanbourne View Post
    Could you elaborate more on this? Give some sources about this development?


    http://stephenjressler.com/portfolio...ilica-at-fano/

    This was the Basilica designed by Vitruvius, its open space is only possible because of wooden trusses suppoting the roof, the greeks didn't know how to build trusses. So an open space like that becomes impossible, and that was a problem in greek engineering, designing big open interior spaces. And that's soemthing at the core of a roman basilica.
    Sorry I have no sources for this, when I was studying classical history in the 80's the development of the Roman Basilica from the Hellenic one is pretty well understood. The Romans adapted the design of the Royal Stoa (essentially a verandah without a building attached) by shoving two of them facing one another, and roofed the intervening space. The image you kindly posted illustrates this perfectly.

    Typical Roman adaption of a good Hellenic idea made great with Roman engineering.

    This discussion reminds me of the one about Romans adapting domes from Hellenic examples (eg IIRC there's an Hellenic domed building in Sicily, one of only a few examples, which the Romans adopted, multiplied and improved). The Romans were great admirers of Hellenic culture and adopted many ideas, and the conquest of Magna Graecia and Sicilia brought a great influx of this cultural wealth.
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  12. #12

    Default Re: Roman Architecture as a Tracer of Roman History

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Sorry I have no sources for this, when I was studying classical history in the 80's the development of the Roman Basilica from the Hellenic one is pretty well understood. The Romans adapted the design of the Royal Stoa (essentially a verandah without a building attached) by shoving two of them facing one another, and roofed the intervening space. The image you kindly posted illustrates this perfectly.

    Typical Roman adaption of a good Hellenic idea made great with Roman engineering.

    This discussion reminds me of the one about Romans adapting domes from Hellenic examples (eg IIRC there's an Hellenic domed building in Sicily, one of only a few examples, which the Romans adopted, multiplied and improved). The Romans were great admirers of Hellenic culture and adopted many ideas, and the conquest of Magna Graecia and Sicilia brought a great influx of this cultural wealth.
    Well, if the roman Basilica being an adoption of an earlier hellenistic design feel off to me, although I suppose it's possible, roman getting the idea of domes from hellenistic examples feels positevely unlikely. And I remember having this discussion here, maybe it was with you. What I said then is pretty much what I say now, unless there is compelling evidence to back that claim, it feels very empty. There are many pre-roman domes, but they are all very modest. The tradition of roman dome construction likely came from their skill with arches and vaults.
    "We will bring Rome to them not because of the strength of our legions, but because we are right"

    "The Romans had left marble and stone, brick and glory."

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    Default Re: Roman Architecture as a Tracer of Roman History

    Quote Originally Posted by sanbourne View Post
    Well, if the roman Basilica being an adoption of an earlier hellenistic design feel off to me, although I suppose it's possible, roman getting the idea of domes from hellenistic examples feels positevely unlikely. And I remember having this discussion here, maybe it was with you. What I said then is pretty much what I say now, unless there is compelling evidence to back that claim, it feels very empty. There are many pre-roman domes, but they are all very modest. The tradition of roman dome construction likely came from their skill with arches and vaults.
    Hellenistic Basilike Stoa: Basiluke, I am your father.
    Roman Basilica: No, that's impossible!
    Hellenistic Basilike Stoa: Search your feelings.

    The few surviving examples of Hellenistic domes (Google it, they exist) throw into relief the skill of the Romans in realising what the Hellenes imagined. The Roman improvement of the Basilica from its eastern form are likewise clear, with improvements like a vaulted roof that evolve into the familiar Christian Basilica form.

    I was reading Browning's Byzantine Empire and IIRC he mentions the derivation of the basilica form from the Hellenistic world. I'm nonplussed that there's a question about this derivation, its been taught to me decades ago, mention as fact by historians, and the word is clearly a Latinisation of the Greek term.

    There is a deal of confusion about the meaning of the word Basilica online, as it has become associated with Christian churches as well as the Latin and Hellenistic public buildings. I've had a quick Google myself and the amount of trash on the subject is astounding, and not just on Wiki.

    This isn't really a "claim' on my part, its actually part of the historical canon as taught at university. If you're certain (and can prove) the Basilike Stoa has nothing to do with the Basilica, submit your paper and collect your PhD.
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    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Roman Architecture as a Tracer of Roman History

    ^I wish i could rep you, but currently i am a bandit in the periphery of Attica circa the time of Theseus
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
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    Default Re: Roman Architecture as a Tracer of Roman History

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Hellenistic Basilike Stoa: Basiluke, I am your father.
    Roman Basilica: No, that's impossible!
    Hellenistic Basilike Stoa: Search your feelings.

    The few surviving examples of Hellenistic domes (Google it, they exist) throw into relief the skill of the Romans in realising what the Hellenes imagined. The Roman improvement of the Basilica from its eastern form are likewise clear, with improvements like a vaulted roof that evolve into the familiar Christian Basilica form.

    I was reading Browning's Byzantine Empire and IIRC he mentions the derivation of the basilica form from the Hellenistic world. I'm nonplussed that there's a question about this derivation, its been taught to me decades ago, mention as fact by historians, and the word is clearly a Latinisation of the Greek term.

    There is a deal of confusion about the meaning of the word Basilica online, as it has become associated with Christian churches as well as the Latin and Hellenistic public buildings. I've had a quick Google myself and the amount of trash on the subject is astounding, and not just on Wiki.

    This isn't really a "claim' on my part, its actually part of the historical canon as taught at university. If you're certain (and can prove) the Basilike Stoa has nothing to do with the Basilica, submit your paper and collect your PhD.
    I suppose you're correct. Maybe I could phrase it better like this: the roman Basilica, as the one illustrated in my previous post, is something that was impossible in the Hellenistic world. My line of questioning is more about the function the hellenistic basilica could perform compared to the roman one, and it's certainly was very limited considering the hellenistic shortcomings in creating open spaces, which was the very purpose of a roman basilica. About the domes, I cannot see the connection. Hellenistic domes existed, just like domes built even before. It takes more than that however to prove a connection between one and the other.
    Last edited by sanbourne; July 28, 2015 at 11:34 AM.
    "We will bring Rome to them not because of the strength of our legions, but because we are right"

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    Default Re: Roman Architecture as a Tracer of Roman History

    Quote Originally Posted by sanbourne View Post
    I suppose you're correct. Maybe I could phrase it better like this: the roman Basilica, as the one illustrated in my previous post, is something that was impossible in the Hellenistic world. My line of questioning is more about the function the hellenistic basilica could perform compared to the roman one, and it's certainly was very limited considering the hellenistic shortcomings in creating open spaces, which was the very purpose of a roman basilica.
    Yeah I completely agree, I think we were disagreeing on wording basically. The Hellenes built some unbelievably beautiful and huge structures but they failed at making arches and domes of significant size. The Romans solved the puzzles around issues like vaulting and the use of concrete aand these were quantum leaps.

    Quote Originally Posted by sanbourne View Post
    About the domes, I cannot see the connection. Hellenistic domes existed, just like domes built even before. It takes more than that however to prove a connection between one and the other.
    I think (and this is not my area, I have read an article in some journal so I can't give you quotes: there's actual examples online of the dome somewhere, I will see if I can dig it up) the tiny handful of small Hellenistic domes are of the same type as Roman ones, in that they aren't corbelled, they have a simple form of vaulting that was only taken to the next level by the Romans.

    edit: I googled and Wiki (sorry, but its got the info other sources have too) and one example is the North Baths at Morgantina, I didn't know about this one, apparently it used terracotta tubes and iron pins to make a 5m vault, tiny compared to say the Pantheon with its poured concrete shell.

    So you're right, this isn't the same as the basilica, where the Hellenes established a useful widespread form and the Romans improved it. Hellenistic domes are few and tiny, I guess in the "R&D" stage only, and it took Roman engineering to make it into something more than a curiosity.

    From memory that's the conclusion we ended up with in the last discussion?
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    Default Re: Roman Architecture as a Tracer of Roman History

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Yeah I completely agree, I think we were disagreeing on wording basically. The Hellenes built some unbelievably beautiful and huge structures but they failed at making arches and domes of significant size. The Romans solved the puzzles around issues like vaulting and the use of concrete aand these were quantum leaps.
    And wooden trusses. Roman basilicas probably used those to make their roofs, the use of vaults comes much latter in this type of building, although I cannot tell if the Basilica of Maxentius is the first one (it's certainly the most impressive).



    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    I think (and this is not my area, I have read an article in some journal so I can't give you quotes: there's actual examples online of the dome somewhere, I will see if I can dig it up) the tiny handful of small Hellenistic domes are of the same type as Roman ones, in that they aren't corbelled, they have a simple form of vaulting that was only taken to the next level by the Romans.

    edit: I googled and Wiki (sorry, but its got the info other sources have too) and one example is the North Baths at Morgantina, I didn't know about this one, apparently it used terracotta tubes and iron pins to make a 5m vault, tiny compared to say the Pantheon with its poured concrete shell.

    So you're right, this isn't the same as the basilica, where the Hellenes established a useful widespread form and the Romans improved it. Hellenistic domes are few and tiny, I guess in the "R&D" stage only, and it took Roman engineering to make it into something more than a curiosity.

    From memory that's the conclusion we ended up with in the last discussion?
    More or less, I think we are never disagreeing that much. Basically I believe there is a part of roman engineering, mainly that that use arches, vaults, domes and concrete, which owns very little to any engineering tradition that comes before it, since no previous civilization managed to exploit those methods of construction as the romans did (even though they were used here and there, like the small domes in Sicility). You seem to think I'm being a bit unfair with previous civilizations, especially the hellenistic one.
    "We will bring Rome to them not because of the strength of our legions, but because we are right"

    "The Romans had left marble and stone, brick and glory."

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    Default Re: Roman Architecture as a Tracer of Roman History

    Quote Originally Posted by sanbourne View Post
    And wooden trusses. Roman basilicas probably used those to make their roofs, the use of vaults comes much latter in this type of building, although I cannot tell if the Basilica of Maxentius is the first one (it's certainly the most impressive).
    IIRC its the Porcian Basilica, now ruined, that's the earliest known Roman example. Embarrassingly some websites seem to distinguish the Porcian Basilica from that built by Cato the Elder (Marcus Porcius Cato).

    Quote Originally Posted by sanbourne View Post
    More or less, I think we are never disagreeing that much. Basically I believe there is a part of roman engineering, mainly that that use arches, vaults, domes and concrete, which owns very little to any engineering tradition that comes before it, since no previous civilization managed to exploit those methods of construction as the romans did (even though they were used here and there, like the small domes in Sicility). You seem to think I'm being a bit unfair with previous civilizations, especially the hellenistic one.
    Yeah my basic point is I think Hellenic/Hellenistic civilisation is a particularly porous one in terms of ideas, and so much of East Mediterranean culture leaks into and out of the Aegean region. I'd like to think of Roman culture as overlapping with Hellenistic, in the same way a lot of Punic culture overlaps with both Canaanite and Hellenistic. That's logic chopping I know, Hellenic, Hellenistic and Roman are well understood cultural entities, but I like to think of the continuities as well as the differences.
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