Europa Barbarorum 2.08e is released!

[HaHawk]

Possibly a little redundant, mostly very confusing!

Heh heh. Well, I did have one of the battle updates installed — the one that fixed javelinmen and the traits fix. But somewhere along the line I had to stop updating so I could finish my campaign

Your point about costs, however, is spot on, that's about the only thing I haven't yet touched. I think I'm going to claim unit costs.

Be careful! You break it you buy it!

[QuintusSertorius]

Turns out there's already an approach on updating the unit costs, it just doesn't look to have been applied yet. So I'll make sure that gets into the next update of this (and will obviously be in the full summer release).

[Cohors_Evocata]

A quick report on my experiences with the AI on 2.02c; I'm 80 turns into a Saba campaign (which I picked mostly since they're rather isolated, thus allowing the CAI to do its job without my interference) and I've toggled the fog of war off on turns 50 and 80 to check how everything had progressed at that point.

By turn 50, relatively little had changed compared to the starting positions. Rome had taken Taras from Epeiros and the KH had steamrolled Makedonia out of Korinthos and Demetrias. Two additional wars had been started (between Rome and Carthage and AS and the Parthians respectively), which hadn't led to any territorial changes however. A few (1 or 2) Seleukid regions had gone rebel and Sogdiane had seceded from the Baktrians as well.

By turn 80, things were much the same as well. I received a message that Pergamon had been destroyed on turn 54 and the region is now controlled by rebels. According to the faction rankings the Ptolemaioi had gained one region, likely from the Seleukids, who lost one or two more.

I myself have expanded rather steadlily over the past 80 turns and I now control seven settlements, which together constitute most of Arabia. I haven't been very active diplomacy-wise and the only diplomatic relations I'm engaged in at the moment are trade contacts with the AS and the Ptolemaioi (apart from the standard war with the rebels). I've intentionally left the region south of the Nabateans be, to see if they would expand in that direction, but to my disappointment they haven't so far. None of the one-settlement factions have seen any territorial changes in fact (apart from Pergamon, which has disappeared entirely).

If I'm allowed to speak my mind, I would like remark that I think the current AI behaviour is too slow. 80 turns is the equivalent of 20 years and in my opinion that should be more than enough time for a few alliances to be forged and wars to be started. I also think it's enough time for some more territorial changes to have happened. Browsing across the map with the fog of war turned off, I've spotted quite a few army stacks (a large amount of which full ones), so the AI is certainly building up its forces, but it doesn't seem to be using them much. Perhaps I'm somewhat of a blitz player, but I don't consider myself to be one, as six captured settlements across 80 turns seems to be a reasonable rate of expansion to me.

[Genghis Skahn]

A quick report on my experiences with the AI on 2.02c; I'm 80 turns into a Saba campaign (which I picked mostly since they're rather isolated, thus allowing the CAI to do its job without my interference) and I've toggled the fog of war off on turns 50 and 80 to check how everything had progressed at that point.

By turn 50, relatively little had changed compared to the starting positions. Rome had taken Taras from Epeiros and the KH had steamrolled Makedonia out of Korinthos and Demetrias. Two additional wars had been started (between Rome and Carthage and AS and the Parthians respectively), which hadn't led to any territorial changes however. A few (1 or 2) Seleukid regions had gone rebel and Sogdiane had seceded from the Baktrians as well.

By turn 80, things were much the same as well. I received a message that Pergamon had been destroyed on turn 54 and the region is now controlled by rebels. According to the faction rankings the Ptolemaioi had gained one region, likely from the Seleukids, who lost one or two more.

I myself have expanded rather steadlily over the past 80 turns and I now control seven settlements, which together constitute most of Arabia. I haven't been very active diplomacy-wise and the only diplomatic relations I'm engaged in at the moment are trade contacts with the AS and the Ptolemaioi (apart from the standard war with the rebels). I've intentionally left the region south of the Nabateans be, to see if they would expand in that direction, but to my disappointment they haven't so far. None of the one-settlement factions have seen any territorial changes in fact (apart from Pergamon, which has disappeared entirely).

If I'm allowed to speak my mind, I would like remark that I think the current AI behaviour is too slow. 80 turns is the equivalent of 20 years and in my opinion that should be more than enough time for a few alliances to be forged and wars to be started. I also think it's enough time for some more territorial changes to have happened. Browsing across the map with the fog of war turned off, I've spotted quite a few army stacks (a large amount of which full ones), so the AI is certainly building up its forces, but it doesn't seem to be using them much. Perhaps I'm somewhat of a blitz player, but I don't consider myself to be one, as six captured settlements across 80 turns seems to be a reasonable rate of expansion to me.

Naw, you're not a blitz player(I shamelessly like to think of myself as one, and try to expand quite fast), 6 captured territories at 80 turns isn't THAT much expansion by the player. I and QKuhlmann reported the passive nature of the CAI in some earlier posts. A 2.02d should be on the way sooner or later(Qunitus mentioned it in an earlier post in this thread) which should hopefully fix the CAI's absolute lack of aggression towards eleutheroi(as you said in your post, Rome took taras but stagnated and KH took macedonian cities but there wasn't much expansion by anyone else otherwise, and I don't think you mentioned a single taken eleutheroi city). Take a look at my post(#216 on page 11) if you'd like to read my report which should be sufficient in supporting your own experiences with the CAI in 2.02c. You're not experiencing anything out of the ordinary currently(unfortunately). Though more player reports are always welcomed, I'm sure .

I suggest waiting until 2.02d is released.

[Trax]

I presume there is some system going on with unit costs that takes into account whether it is a professional unit or not.
So yeah, professional unit can easily be much more expensive than feudal/levy unit.

example: Argoi (nobles) vs solduroi (hired professionals).

(Late) Levy spearmen: 7 attack, 1 charge bonus

The charge bonus displayed is that of the missile weapon, if the unit has one.
The bonus for the melee weapon can only be seen in the EDU.

And defense values are not too high. I'm actually playing with doubled shield values on top of the default EBII defense and find the experience very pleasing.

[QuintusSertorius]

I'm going to be reworking all the unit costs - there's a new formula developed backstage but never applied which should bring greater consistency.

[Thuycidides]

And defense values are not too high. I'm actually playing with doubled shield values on top of the default EBII defense and find the experience very pleasing.

Did you adjust that manually for each and every unit?! I like the idea. It must do a lot to blunt head-on cavalry charges.

[Trax]

Manually, yes. And only for infantry. It doesn't take that long to do, 20 minutes maybe.

I also increased the melee kill rate 10% and missile accuracy 20% to compensate.
Those numbers may need some slight balancing though.

edit:
Here's the EDU to anyone who may care.

https://www.mediafire.com/?ke0ezjzwprney38

[HaHawk]

The charge bonus displayed is that of the missile weapon, if the unit has one.

Missile weapons only have one damage value. "Charge bonus" refers to the initial increase in melee damage a unit does when charging. This is why assault infantry have a high charge bonus — it often allows them to make a kill on the first hit. It's also what balances some of the very deadly heavy cavalry, which have a very high (oftentimes 30+) charge value but low base attack value, making them at first very effective in the initial charge but then vulnerable after becoming stuck in stationary combat.

[QuintusSertorius]

Missile weapons only have one damage value. "Charge bonus" refers to the initial increase in melee damage a unit does when charging. This is why assault infantry have a high charge bonus — it often allows them to make a kill on the first hit. It's also what balances some of the very deadly heavy cavalry, which have a very high (oftentimes 30+) charge value but low base attack value, making them at first very effective in the initial charge but then vulnerable after becoming stuck in stationary combat.

Missiles still have a charge bonus, the unit cards you were displaying were often showing the missile weapon's charge bonus, not the (secondary) melee weapon.

Cavalry in the current EDU have charge values no higher than 28, which is for a handful of cavalry. Lancers have 21, spear-cavalry have 11 and British cavalry have 17.

[Thuycidides]

One issue I have noticed is that Gallic Cavalry are able to win in close melee against hundreds (300 - 400) of spearmen. I was under the impression that cavalry are somewhat vulnerable when they are stationary and have no room to maneuver (i.e., city streets or in a forest after finishing a charge and being surrounded). During a recent siege battle, two enemy units of Gallic cavalry were nearly able to crush half my army in a pure war of attrition (for every 10 or 20 spearmen they killed, perhaps only one cavalry was taken down)...

I agree that bodyguard cavalry are very powerful in EBII, definitely more powerful than in EBI. The hellenic bodyguard cavalry are even more extreme than the Gallic cavalry:

stat_pri 10, 21, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 0, 1
stat_pri_attr ap
stat_sec 7, 6, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, slashing, sword, 0, 1
stat_sec_attr ap
stat_pri_armour 9, 12, 0, flesh

[Kdssow]

I noticed the loading time and the next turn time are quite longer than the previous version, expecially when the Egyptians and the Seleucid faction are doing their moves (or however it's spelled).
Has there been added this much?

[QuintusSertorius]

I agree that bodyguard cavalry are very powerful in EBII, definitely more powerful than in EBI. The hellenic bodyguard cavalry are even more extreme than the Gallic cavalry:

stat_pri 10, 21, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 0, 1
stat_pri_attr ap
stat_sec 7, 6, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, slashing, sword, 0, 1
stat_sec_attr ap
stat_pri_armour 9, 12, 0, flesh

Weapon and armour stats are based entirely on the visible equipment, not any balancing concerns.

10/21 is standard for a lancer; 8/11 for spears; somewhere between 6/4 and 9/5 for swords; and so on.

Hetairoi are heavily armoured, thus the numbers.

I noticed the loading time and the next turn time are quite longer than the previous version, expecially when the Egyptians and the Seleucid faction are doing their moves (or however it's spelled).
Has there been added this much?

Yes, loads has been added to the campaign AI, so it takes longer to process.

[Thuycidides]

Sure, but the bodyguard cavalry can trot straight into a unit of braced spearmen in a narrow city street and win. It's not the charge values that make that possible (because they don't charge well in cities). It's the defense skill and ap sword.

[Trax]

Weapon and armour stats are based entirely on the visible equipment, not any balancing concerns.

As it should be.

e, but the bodyguard cavalry can trot straight into a unit of braced spearmen in a narrow city street and win.

Well, bracing only helps against charges (reverses the charge value against the cavalry). If the walk into spearmen they get no severe penalty apart from the limited spear bonus the infantry gets.

[QKuhlmann]

Here another few observations from my Pritanoi-Campaign (202c - Turn 100), which might help you building the 202d CAI:

Miltitary strength:
All the small factions with one or two settlements have between 1,5 and 2,5 full stacks in field or settlement, average about 2 stacks. So, if they would cange their attitude with eleutheroi, some of them would likely be successful, some of them not.
Rome has about 4,5 full stacks in the field, wich means, they could easyly conquer Rhegion, if they wanted to.
Seleukids have gathered 11 full stacks around Arbela to hunt down the hording Parhtians. They are strong in other parts of their empire too.
In general there is really almost no disperted small stacks left, everybody seems to join together in big armies, which is an big improvement in my opinion.
As a resumee I would suggest, that it is more important to change the attitude of factions against eloitheroi than to give the AI-Factions really much more money.

Minor Settlement Bug:
I turned of the fow and counted during an end turn. According to the factions, I saw the Simple One time-In-and-and one-time-Out for 14 times. Not one single multiple in-and-out until the movement points are empty. But the Euloitheroi-Turn showed three of these multiple coincidences.

Diplomats:
There are lots of them on the card. A faction like the Ptolemaians starts the turn with 10 different diplomat movements, with Rome it were 6 movements. Maybe it would be wise to restrict their recrutation a little bit.

So, then good luck and thank you for the good work! Will start another campaign with the next update.

[QuintusSertorius]

Sure, but the bodyguard cavalry can trot straight into a unit of braced spearmen in a narrow city street and win. It's not the charge values that make that possible (because they don't charge well in cities). It's the defense skill and ap sword.

If you're willing to risk your FMs in a static melee in narrow streets, good luck to you. Remember these are bodyguard cavalry, they're supposed to be amongst the best fighters a faction can find.

As to the sword, if they use a kopis, it's ap. Same goes if they use an axe.

Diplomats:
There are lots of them on the card. A faction like the Ptolemaians starts the turn with 10 different diplomat movements, with Rome it were 6 movements. Maybe it would be wise to restrict their recrutation a little bit.

So, then good luck and thank you for the good work! Will start another campaign with the next update.

I expanded recruitment of diplomats to a lot more government buildings than was previously the case. Which might explain why the AI is suddenly spamming them. It made no sense that you either needed an Allied Government, or very high tier factional government in order to recruit diplomats.

Perhaps I extended it a little too far down the government tiers.

[HaHawk]

Missiles still have a charge bonus, the unit cards you were displaying were often showing the missile weapon's charge bonus, not the (secondary) melee weapon.

I think we are talking past each other...

I don't mean that missile units don't have a charge bonus. I was referring to that fact that a thrown or fired missile only has a single damage modifier (e.g., stat_pri 7, 0, javelin).

Before throwing a missile or shooting an arrow, the unit must be stationary. The next state is "reloading" followed by "firing". The unit cannot be "charging" and also "firing" at the same time, as they are different states. Charging only applies to melee attack.

Example:

stat_pri                7, 0, javelin, 60, 6, thrown, missile_mechanical, piercing, none, 0, 1
stat_pri_attr           thrown
stat_sec                2, 3, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, piercing, spear, 0, 1
stat_sec_attr           no

In this case the unit card would read:

Melee attack: 2
Missile attack: 7
Charge bonus: 3

More information on EDU stats vs. in-game display

• [charge] : Charge bonus of the primary weapon, added to the unit's attack when charging. As charge is slowed down and unit gets into 'proper' melee, the bonus stops being applied. Min value is 1 and max charge bonus value is 63, as everything higher will be considered 63. Missile units should have this equal to their desired secondary weapon charge bonus, as to not confuse players, since the charge bonus used by the engine will be the one of the melee weapon

[_Tartaros_]

i´m now 31 turns into my partia m/m campaign and kick´n seleucid settlements. got the interface-bug on turn 31 after to much leftclick around. the ai is doing very passive only sending small detachements into my lands. got alot of money after taking 3/4 towns and progressing slowly into an empire.

edit:
one totally amazing observation: some units move the mouth when taunting!

[QuintusSertorius]

That's not a damage modifier, that's the attack value. Damage comes from the descr_projectiles and kill rates in battle_config.xml.

Units aren't stationary when they throw javelins - indeed one of the changes post-2.01 was to give all skirmishers the same run-up-throw animation as precursor javelineers.

Either way, editing the primary missile weapon's charge value, just for the sake of the display on the unit card, doesn't sound like a worthwhile expenditure of effort to me. Sorry. Given the difficulties in M2TW of getting infantry to charge properly, anyway, it's a completely irrelevant stat for the most part.