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  1. #61
    PunitorMaximus's Avatar TWTEAW Mod Leader
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    Default Re: Unit Preview [with many screenshots]

    With regards to the round shields for Kassites and Elamites, It was a very conscious design decision, first of all we know that round shields were in use by other Mesopotamian powers(the Assyrians come to mind) and that they were a very common shield in the timeperiod, I dont have a great deal of time right now but hopefully later I will be able to find the links to the academic journals I used when building the rosters. Basically, the shields added variety to the rosters and fit in place with the information we have and the military technology of the timeperiod.
    exactly. appearently the subjugated tribes did't fight in their own units but were put together in the same groups as assyrian/kassite warriors. also the cultural crosses were quite blurred, so all kinds of shield types were used all over the levant and anatolia.
    f.e. shield types of the hittites, mitanni and canaanites had their origin in said regions but spread all over the near east.

    although most shield shapes appeared in certain areas more frequently(e.g. rectangular with bronze knobs in canaan, syria, lebanon), most of them were known and used in other regions too (anatolia, northern arabia in case of rectangular ones)

  2. #62

    Default Re: Unit Preview [with many screenshots]

    Quote Originally Posted by PunitorMaximus View Post
    exactly. appearently the subjugated tribes did't fight in their own units but were put together in the same groups as assyrian/kassite warriors. also the cultural crosses were quite blurred, so all kinds of shield types were used all over the levant and anatolia.
    f.e. shield types of the hittites, mitanni and canaanites had their origin in said regions but spread all over the near east.

    although most shield shapes appeared in certain areas more frequently(e.g. rectangular with bronze knobs in canaan, syria, lebanon), most of them were known and used in other regions too (anatolia, northern arabia in case of rectangular ones)
    This is true for the period after 1100-1000 BC.


    But before that was used everywhere rectangular shield.

    Round shield type appeared with "Sea Peoples." This is clearly seen on the reliefs of the Bronze Age.

    Assyrian palace reliefs on Ashur-nasir-pal II. Shown as rectangular shields and round (archers).
    Only when Shalmaneser III round shield finally ousted rectangular but it's 840 years BC.

  3. #63

    Default Re: Unit Preview [with many screenshots]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dontfearme22 View Post
    Please remember many of these helmets and shields are placeholder models until more appropriate models are finished by our talented modelers Squeehunter and Greenyrepublic. The crested helmets are outside my expertise, so any academic sources detailing their use and styles would be very much appreciated. As for cavalry, a great deal of forum space here has been used to discuss it, and you can easily find these debates in the main mod thread.
    Classic book
    GEORGE RAWLINSON, M.A.
    THE SEVEN GREAT MONARHIS

    http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zor...htm#image-0007

    Here in detail when and what appeared. There are about cavalry.
    Your riders such as during times of Sargon II (722-705 BC).
    But before that such did not exist.


    Helmets with a comb Scythian influence.
    Details are shown in the time of Assurbanipal (669-626 BC)
    Last edited by Akrit; August 19, 2014 at 04:46 AM.

  4. #64
    Brivime's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Unit Preview [with many screenshots]

    What type of helmets should the Assyrians be wearing then?

  5. #65
    Dontfearme22's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Unit Preview [with many screenshots]

    Quote Originally Posted by Akrit View Post
    This is true for the period after 1100-1000 BC.


    But before that was used everywhere rectangular shield.

    Round shield type appeared with "Sea Peoples." This is clearly seen on the reliefs of the Bronze Age.

    Assyrian palace reliefs on Ashur-nasir-pal II. Shown as rectangular shields and round (archers).
    Only when Shalmaneser III round shield finally ousted rectangular but it's 840 years BC.
    Could you provide evidence? We know with great certainty round shields were common before the Sea People incursions, here are some pictures:

    Hittite soldiers, note the round almost Hoplon-like shields on their backs:


    Round shields were not the standard shield type, but to say that they were not used at all before 1100 BC is just plainly incorrect, they were much rarer in Mesopotamia but were commonly used in Anatolia and Greece.

    A good date for the beginning widespread use of round shields would be 1300-1200 BC, also remember we are representing in the custom battle factions 500 years of military technology and since for almost 60% of that timeperiod being covered round shields were used in the Levant means they will inevitably show up in custom battle units. In the planned campaign, there will be a much more accurate representation of the shifts in military technology.

    Custom battle is meant to be a fun approximation of 500 years of military advances and changes crunched into one roster for players to mess around with, the campaign will be the more drawn out accurate one for people who want to true and full bronze age simulation experience, but we will only start on it after the factions are 100% finished.
    Last edited by Dontfearme22; August 19, 2014 at 12:25 PM.

  6. #66

    Default Re: Unit Preview [with many screenshots]

    Dontfearme22
    Hittite soldiers, note the round almost Hoplon-like shields on their backs:
    It warriors relief period Neo-Hitite. Dating ~ 800 BC
    Royal Guard kings Yariri and Katana
    http://www.hittitemonuments.com/karkamis/
    By this time - round shields - basic.



    But the Bronze Age:
    The Battle of Kadesh
    http://www.ancientcity.ru/images/sto...-of-kadesh.jpg

    Siege Dapur
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...familjebok.png

    Showing only shields such as "8" and rectangular panels. Round shields not shown.


    but we will only start on it after the factions are 100% finished.
    While work is going on. Not too late to make changes.
    My goal - not to bring criticism.
    I sincerely want to help your project.
    The Bronze Age - my favorite era.

    Earlier, I consulted Russian historians Oriental studies:
    Alexandre Nemirovski
    Alexander Safronov.

    Our project is the Bronze Age. For Rome total war:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...-amp-download)
    Last edited by Akrit; August 19, 2014 at 04:48 PM.

  7. #67
    Dontfearme22's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Unit Preview [with many screenshots]

    Quote Originally Posted by Akrit View Post
    Dontfearme22
    It warriors relief period Neo-Hitite. Dating ~ 800 BC
    Royal Guard kings Yariri and Katana
    http://www.hittitemonuments.com/karkamis/
    By this time - round shields - basic.



    But the Bronze Age:
    The Battle of Kadesh
    http://www.ancientcity.ru/images/sto...-of-kadesh.jpg

    Siege Dapur
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...familjebok.png

    Showing only shields such as "8" and rectangular panels. Round shields not shown.


    While work is going on. Not too late to make changes.
    My goal - not to bring criticism.
    I sincerely want to help your project.
    The Bronze Age - my favorite era.

    Earlier, I consulted Russian historians Oriental studies:
    Alexandre Nemirovski
    Alexander Safronov.

    Our project is the Bronze Age. For Rome total war:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...-amp-download)
    Both of the sieges you referenced can be clearly identified as sieges in the Levant, they both occurred in or around the land of Canaan where rectangular shields were the norm.

    Based on your critisicms, I do feel it is appropriate at this stage to adjust the ratio of round to rectangular shields to better reflect the timeperiod, although as my earlier statements suggest I will not totally remove round shields.

    By the way, what do you think of the non-near eastern units? I would like your opinion as a fellow Bronze Age person.

  8. #68
    Leonida.'s Avatar Foederatus
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    Default Re: Unit Preview [with many screenshots]

    This mod is fantastic!

  9. #69

    Default Re: Unit Preview [with many screenshots]

    Cant wait to see Egypt's units!

  10. #70
    PunitorMaximus's Avatar TWTEAW Mod Leader
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    Default Re: Unit Preview [with many screenshots]

    won't take long, just have to update the pack to EE

  11. #71

    Default Re: Unit Preview [with many screenshots]

    That picture with 37000 troops OMG, that looks so awesome. I wish the battles were always that big in total war games (and I wish my computer could handle it)

  12. #72
    Methoz's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Unit Preview [with many screenshots]

    Everything looks great, I can't wait! :-)
    TotalWarForum.cz
    Česko-Slovenské fórum o hrách ze série Total War

  13. #73
    PunitorMaximus's Avatar TWTEAW Mod Leader
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    Default Re: Unit Preview [with many screenshots]

    That picture with 37000 troops OMG, that looks so awesome. I wish the battles were always that big in total war games (and I wish my computer could handle it)
    yeah, love it too, although i only had like 5 fps when taking the screens.
    but im planning on buying a way better laptop. also when the mod is finished i will add a "real numbers" version.
    each unit will include exactly 1000 (oddly almost all big empires in the middle/late Bronze Age used the decadic system for army organisation), while chariot units consist of 100 chariots each.
    the decadic system is confirmed for the following factions: myceaneans/hellads (scripts about chariot detachments talk about 100 vehicles at pylos, 400 on crete, etc), hittites (all units in groups of 10, 100, 1000, 10 000), assyrians, egyptians

    as you can see on my screens such huge armies do actually fit on the battle maps. also battles will last a lot longer, but hopefully not days like in real life ^^

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Gameplay, Strategy, Tactic and Bronze Age Fighting Styles Discussion Thread

    I tend to disagree in some aspects mostly concerning middle European warfare. I'm not a scientist and use only second-hand sources aka books so I may be wrong. I don't think that chariots should be so extremely effective, I don't think even the heavier ones should be able to drive through units of spear and/or sword armed heavy infantry with big shields and I don't think that European warfare should mainly be about light infantry with guerilla attacks.

    There is a great lack of available information about it but frankly said also the tactics of the Myceneans are rather clouded, aren't they? The only methods possible for other than Near Eastern units are educated guesses. And a certain amount of concern to gameplay aspects.

    For the Myceneans we have pictoral hints that at least some kind of heavy infantry with a phalanx-like tactic existed at about 1500 BC beneath very light close combat sword infantry, archers, slingers and javelinmen. Heavy infantry does not mean heavily armored, that's a common misunderstanding. A near naked soldier with a helmet and big shield can be as heavy an infantry as a bronze or iron clad one if they fought in a close order unit together in a disciplined way. Presumably Greek hoplites discarded armor at least partly during the rigors of the Peloponnesian War without losing the ability to act as heavy hoplite infantry. So would do their Bronze Age predecessors. Archers and chariots alike would have had problems against such heavy infantry.

    That rises the question what killed chariot warfare shortly after 1200-1100 BC. I don't believe in Drews interesting conclusions about the devastating impact of new infantry tactics (javelin-armed armored heavy infantrymen, like from the famous Warrior Vase; I always ask myself wether it really shows late Mycenean soldiers) on chariots. I think the decline of the bigger empires had mainly to do with a climatic change about 1200, economic difficulties and internal struggle, so the new tactics, perhaps connected with the mysterious Sea People, played only a little part in it. Chariot armies were extremely expensive and elitistic and not worth the effort given their debatable effectiveness against infantry. They were just not longer efficient for weakened economies.

    Concerning European warfare there is only speculation. We saw communal projects be done and big structures built during the Neolithic which hint to some form of long-term organisation among the tribes. First fortifications appeared. That became more intensified in the Bronze Age. There were a lot of fortified places build, many seemingly with concern of bigger planned attacks against them, using rather sophisticated ideas of delaying attacks and creating fields for good bow shooting (nobody fires a bow). Although not many show signs of actual sieges there are some places, f.e. Velim, where you have to imagine coordinated assaults. Hundreds or thousands of arrow tips are usually found at the attacked places. This hints to some organisation of bigger armed groups. We see more social differentiation and the rise of a professional warrior class during the European Bronze Age. That is not only clear from the few pictoral evidence and the frequent weapons findings but also from sceletal remains. Why should the Bronze Age army organisation be so different from later Iron Age tribal one?

    The weapons of choice in the north were spears for stabbing and throwing, swords and (sometimes huge) shields, and to a lesser extent axes. That hints to heavy spear as well as light close combat sword armed infantry. Archery also played some role where relatively strong bows of the Neolithic design were used. I don't see so much difference to the Myceneans. They might have had a better and bigger organisation but I doubt they fought in a totally different manner. Except for chariots who played however never a big role in Europe.

    For a game the possibility of organized combat in Europe would be enough for me to build the troops of the lesser developed groups/tribes along the same rules as I would do for a Iron Age Germanic unit roster (perhaps based on what the 4th c. BC Hjortspring bog findings tell us about army composition). There could be even unrealistic fun units with two handed stave-dagger-axes although the latter are from the early Bronze Age period and were perhaps only single combat champions weapons too clumsy for use in organised units.
    Last edited by geala; December 08, 2014 at 06:09 AM.

  15. #75

    Default Re: Gameplay, Strategy, Tactic and Bronze Age Fighting Styles Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by geala View Post
    I tend to disagree in some aspects mostly concerning middle European warfare.....
    Hello guys, this is my first post here. I would like do add few considerations to the discussion about mycenean warfare.
    1) Wide diffusion of helmets, large leather(elastic!) shields, legs protections even in less armored warriors suggest an key role of throwing units. Probably main units were relatively slow in manouvering, so that light archer, stones (or other bullets) throwers could target them without being reached by main army forces.

    2) War chariots should have a relatively poor role, since nature of rocky terrain limited they massive use.

    3) Chariots are anyway recorder on mycenaean mud tablets, so they should have a role, anyway, may be as countermeasure agianst light units(?), like archers moving base and arrow depot.

    4) Basic combat tactics should have been at least partially based on the hammer clashing power of the phalanx (shape of shields and his central bronze head), and probably the strategy was aimed to break the wall of shields in the enemy line. Isolated warrios become greatly vulnerable. This, judging by the lenght of spears, the 8-shaped shields (a scaled structure: spear-shield-spear-shield-...), shape of swords, not used for their blade but for the tip, as strong close-range spears. Homeric poems tell of throwing spears, duels of alone heroes, but studying archeologic findings that seems just an epic fantasy. Homeric poems were written centuries after the mycenaean age, and no mention is made of some singular features of the achaean army. One upon all: tusk teeth helmets!

    5) Cavalry should have a limited role too, and some factions should have no cavalry units at all.

    6) iron weaponry had not significant advantage on bronze ones, during this period, due to poor iron quality.

    I hope to give my little contribution to the discussion. Cheers from Italy.
    Roberto.

  16. #76
    Dontfearme22's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Gameplay, Strategy, Tactic and Bronze Age Fighting Styles Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by robraccia View Post
    Hello guys, this is my first post here. I would like do add few considerations to the discussion about mycenean warfare.
    1) Wide diffusion of helmets, large leather(elastic!) shields, legs protections even in less armored warriors suggest an key role of throwing units. Probably main units were relatively slow in manouvering, so that light archer, stones (or other bullets) throwers could target them without being reached by main army forces.

    2) War chariots should have a relatively poor role, since nature of rocky terrain limited they massive use.

    3) Chariots are anyway recorder on mycenaean mud tablets, so they should have a role, anyway, may be as countermeasure agianst light units(?), like archers moving base and arrow depot.

    4) Basic combat tactics should have been at least partially based on the hammer clashing power of the phalanx (shape of shields and his central bronze head), and probably the strategy was aimed to break the wall of shields in the enemy line. Isolated warrios become greatly vulnerable. This, judging by the lenght of spears, the 8-shaped shields (a scaled structure: spear-shield-spear-shield-...), shape of swords, not used for their blade but for the tip, as strong close-range spears. Homeric poems tell of throwing spears, duels of alone heroes, but studying archeologic findings that seems just an epic fantasy. Homeric poems were written centuries after the mycenaean age, and no mention is made of some singular features of the achaean army. One upon all: tusk teeth helmets!

    5) Cavalry should have a limited role too, and some factions should have no cavalry units at all.

    6) iron weaponry had not significant advantage on bronze ones, during this period, due to poor iron quality.

    I hope to give my little contribution to the discussion. Cheers from Italy.
    Roberto.
    Very intelligent points, we will definitely take that into consideration.

  17. #77
    PunitorMaximus's Avatar TWTEAW Mod Leader
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    Default Türkenlouis presents: European Factions Preview [Holiday Present]

    Originally posted by Türkenlouis! +Rep him here: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...cation/page133



    Happy new year !



    A little preview
    !
    http://imgur.com/a/7WWWK#0

    Support:
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    Germanic tribes mod
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    Last edited by PunitorMaximus; January 04, 2015 at 05:28 AM.

  18. #78

    Default Re: Unit Preview [with many screenshots]

    In the wrath of sparta dlc, CA released more beards.

    As you can see the new beards look good on eastern skins and african skins as well as, naturally the greek skins. I'm guessing most, if not all guys in the bronze age would have beards since shaving was probably dangerous. I kinda wanna see the faction screenshots updated with the addition of beards.

  19. #79
    Dontfearme22's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Unit Preview [with many screenshots]

    Quote Originally Posted by JPrice94 View Post
    In the wrath of sparta dlc, CA released more beards.

    As you can see the new beards look good on eastern skins and african skins as well as, naturally the greek skins. I'm guessing most, if not all guys in the bronze age would have beards since shaving was probably dangerous. I kinda wanna see the faction screenshots updated with the addition of beards.
    I honestly did not notice these, I am definitely going to use those when I am going through the variantmeshes.

  20. #80

    Default Re: Unit Preview [with many screenshots]

    Besides being the most promising mod overhaul for any Warscape Engine, this mod is being created by the most effective and dedicated team! Who constantly shows progress on units and promotes interesting historical disussions It's amazing what you are doing for us in your free-time! +rep to you all team and keep up the good work!

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