8 special police officers dead and 20 seriously wounded so far in clashes with Albanian terrorists in northern Macedonia

[Stavroforos]

FYROM is part of NATO, so according to the geniouses on this board, NATO wants to destabilize itself!

Macedonia is not a member of NATO.

[Aikanár]

Gentlemen,

to quote the Debating Forum Rules: "Do not post images or videos without some clear supporting text discussion." Postings in which the sources are not put into some sort of context that adds to the discussion are considered material that cannot reasonably be discussed and subsequently will face deletion.

Thank-you for your courtesy.

[Praetorian_BGX]

That "Nato wants to destabilise friends of Russia" argument might even work, but alas, the incidents in Kumanovo do not destabilise Macedonia. Very much to the contrary they stabilise the current government as I pointed out above, by turning attention away from the scandal that was likely to quicken the demise of Gruevski.

You can turn away attention from scandal much easier, specially on Balkans. Gruevski didn't needed 70+ KLA terrorists and 2 day battle in Kumanovo. I do agree that its in his favor, but he didn't funded and organized these guys. Looking from different angle i can say that Albanians were assaulting in the right moment when Macedonian gov is weakened by scandals and demonstrations. Don't forget that on 21st April Albanians attacked police station in Macedonia. If you missed that event, its registered as Goshice attack

Besides that, arrested members are really high ranking KLA officers and Ramush Haradinaj Bodyguards. If you are familiar with region, he is Kosovo ex Prime minister. You can browse their "buddy" photos on this link.

@Aikanár - didn't manage to finish my earlier post. You deleted this video so fast that i couldn't edit anything. Regarding "Do not post images or videos without some clear supporting text discussion." Point of this video is to show their uniforms and faces and specially last arrested member at the end of the clip which have clear KLA insignia on his arm. Also, it seems that he is Sami Ukshini aka commander Sokoli, also one of the leaders? When im comparing his face to image bellow, he should be second on top row (from left to right)






Also, names of 28 arrested terrorists are announced, 16 of them from Kosovo

1. Kenan Iseni, Kumanovo
2. Fadil Fejzullahu, Kumanovo
3. Deme Šehu, Kosovo (Junik)
4. Sami Ukshini, Kosovo (Sokol)
5. Irfan Lutfi, Kumanovo
6. Arsim Bajrami, Kumanovo (cop from Vaksinca)
7. Fadil Eljšani, Kosovo
8. Esat Kafekholli, Kosovo
9. Ardijan Bujari, Kosovo
10. Andi Krasnići, Kosovo (Mališevo)
11. Shefket Avaki, Kosovo
12. Lirim Demiri, Kumanovo
13. Ajrush Avdia, Kosovo
14. Betim Kartashi, Kosovo
15. Genci Sefa, Albanija
16. Lendrit Rustem, Kosovo
17. Enver Klajn, Germany
18. Rufki Dogani, Kosovo
19. Nasuf Bekiri, Aračinovo
20. Valdet Zekaj, Kosova
21. Bajram Eljšani, Kosovo
22. Nekhmetin Lika, Tetovo
23. Lirim Krasnići, Kosovo
24. Sevdail Miftari, Kumanovo
25. Fatmir Rečica, Kosovo
26. Beg Bajra, Kosova (komandant Begu)
27. Fejzulla Rushitovski, selo Brest
28. Besnik Ajdin, Kumanovo.

[StarDreamer]

Macedonia is not a member of NATO.

You are correct, I was wrong. Still there is no point in NATO doing anything some here say.

[Gertrudius]

You are correct, I was wrong. Still there is no point in NATO doing anything some here say.

I have to agree. As Iskar has so adroitly pointed out, Macedonia is actively seeking NATO membership and has been for some time (the naming dispute being the primary barrier). Not only does the notion that NATO is trying to undermine Macedonia covertly (or overtly for that matter) have no basis in realistic analysis, it also ignores the fact that the modus operandi of NATO requires decisions on military action to be made through the North Atlantic Council, which makes the notion of NATO as anything more than languidly reactive and primarily defensive body wildly fanciful. Those of us who recognize the incongruity of the mindless vitriol spewed forth in this thread, realize that NATO has neither the desire nor the capacity to covertly suborn governments given it's current operational and administrative paradigms. Not to mention that NATO deployed troops to Macedonia as part of Operation Essential Harvest in 2001 for the purpose of helping disarm ethnic Albanians within the country.

Conclusion: 1+1 does not equal 30.

In fact there were several attempts to integrate Macedonia into EU/Nato in the past, all of which were unfortunately thwarted by Greek vetos. Now that we are finally in a position where one could wrench consent from the Greek Gruevski's increasingly authoritarian conduct remains the last obstacle to said integration, with support among the population being around 70-80%.
Hence it would actually work against our interests to give Gruevski an opportunity to regain popularity.

How would consent be obtained from Greece? I'm not current on the naming dispute issue but I haven't heard of any changes in the Greek position.

[Iskar]

...
Conclusion: 1+1 does not equal 30.

Fully agreed, thanks for that analysis.

How would consent be obtained from Greece? I'm not current on the naming dispute issue but I haven't heard of any changes in the Greek position.

I'd say that with Eurogroup consent to further disbursement of credits pending Greece's bargaining position is considerably weakened and they might be willing to make concessions on the naming issue in exchange for partial earlier disbursements. Of course any such agreement would have to be subject to some backroom deal so as not to kindle the notion of EU humiliating Greece, etc.

[Stavroforos]

Fully agreed, thanks for that analysis.


I'd say that with Eurogroup consent to further disbursement of credits pending Greece's bargaining position is considerably weakened and they might be willing to make concessions on the naming issue in exchange for partial earlier disbursements. Of course any such agreement would have to be subject to some backroom deal so as not to kindle the notion of EU humiliating Greece, etc.

I don't think the Greek financial crisis will have any benefit for the faster settlement of the dispute, as Macedonia is far to insignificant for it to be part of the conditions of any deal. What the crisis has done however is use up all good will towards Greece and Greece's diplomatic capital so that they can't demand a settlement that favors their view of the name.

[4th Regiment]

As I have already explained two times, NATO do not have plans to destabilize Macedonia in sense provoking bigger Albanian - Macedonian conflict , as it can unite all surrounding nations against Albanians and their pretensions for Greater Albania, but just using their Albanian lap dogs for dirty jobs in the region, if needed. Plus, it can spark war which they can not control any more.

Reason for action, as I already said, is current government just considering Turkish stream and prime mister going to parade in Moscow. Very same day when he was in Moscow, happen.

Behavior of western media, and shameful statements of NATO Gen.Sec. (when he do not call terrorist terrorist, but for all sides to calm down ) and EU officials, is more then obvious for any body to see.(Maja Kocijanchich called them armed group!!, and my friend in Germany told they called them similar therms, "fighters", "urban guerrilla"! etc )

Just yesterday, vice president of EU parliament OPENLY called Macedonian PM to step down as "he is responsible for ethnic tensions" (70 heavily armed terrorist coming from foreign country are "are ethnic tensions"!! )

Minister of interior, transportation and chief of intelligence were already forced to step down yesterday, and I guess in few days or weeks we will have fall of current government.

Sorosh medias on Macedonia is spreading classical government change propaganda, I read one hilarious article where they blaim current government for hiring terrorist for money!!! etc

In Belgrade is known that former "Otpor", now Canvas organization veterans of regime changes are already in Macedonia instructing demonstrations...


I already dismissed clueless statements or just trolling without argument here that NATO had no idea what was going on, in region full of NATO soldiers, officials, spy networks, NGOs, their politicians and other officialls working for them, in very small area.

[Condottiere 40K]

1283
NATO loves starting and putting out brushfires in it's own backyard.

[The Noble Lord]

but just using their Albanian lap dogs for dirty jobs in the region, if needed.

That's right, very succinct and comprehensive analysis of the entire Kumanovo episode! Also it should be known that these terrorists can only TRY to instigate fight or to eventually
attack isolated Police station or border post and run, because Albanian thugs and terrorists are NOT known to actually fight and win, they never fought conventionally and never won
any battles. In 1998-1999 and then in 2001 they LOST every single battle and armed engagement, in both cases it was NATO that actually fought! But those days are OVER, nobody
is wiling or capable any more to fight on the side of Albanian terrorists and thugs!

The entire incident exposes the pointless objective of creating "independent Kosovo" and portraying it as a country, that artificial monstrosity is nothing but a nest of war criminals,
drug cartels, armed fascists and fanatical terrorists that can undermine and destabilize the entire region in few hours! That miserable bankrupt Madeleine Albright and that degenerate
cretin and imbecile Toni Blair must be really proud.

And like 4th Regiment said above, can anyone imagine 70+ armed terrorists and thugs crossing the border into any other European country and start shooting at will, it would've been
a cause for the activation of article 5. But here, its "armed groups" and "urban guerrillas" and similar euphemistic garbage coming from Brussels and other "bastions of democracy"! Really
disgusting, even for the European hypocrites and seasonal users of double standards!!!

Where is the moral outrage and calls for sanctions against Kosovo, where is that lauded "European unity in face of aggression" and such??!!..

[Dromikaites]

As I have already explained two times, NATO do not have plans to destabilize Macedonia in sense provoking bigger Albanian - Macedonian conflict , as it can unite all surrounding nations against Albanians and their pretensions for Greater Albania, but just using their Albanian lap dogs for dirty jobs in the region, if needed. Plus, it can spark war which they can not control any more.

Reason for action, as I already said, is current government just considering Turkish stream and prime mister going to parade in Moscow. Very same day when he was in Moscow, happen.

Behavior of western media, and shameful statements of NATO Gen.Sec. (when he do not call terrorist terrorist, but for all sides to calm down ) and EU officials, is more then obvious for any body to see.(Maja Kocijanchich called them armed group!!, and my friend in Germany told they called them similar therms, "fighters", "urban guerrilla"! etc )

Just yesterday, vice president of EU parliament OPENLY called Macedonian PM to step down as "he is responsible for ethnic tensions" (70 heavily armed terrorist coming from foreign country are "are ethnic tensions"!! )

Minister of interior, transportation and chief of intelligence were already forced to step down yesterday, and I guess in few days or weeks we will have fall of current government.

Sorosh medias on Macedonia is spreading classical government change propaganda, I read one hilarious article where they blaim current government for hiring terrorist for money!!! etc

In Belgrade is known that former "Otpor", now Canvas organization veterans of regime changes are already in Macedonia instructing demonstrations...


I already dismissed clueless statements or just trolling without argument here that NATO had no idea what was going on, in region full of NATO soldiers, officials, spy networks, NGOs, their politicians and other officialls working for them, in very small area.

The Macedonian opposition media does indeed say that there are tape recorded negotiations between highly-placed Macedonian secret service officers and Albanian terrorists from Kosovo. According to this scenario, the Macedonian government hired those terrorists to create some minor disturbances, but the things quickly escalated. According to the same opposition media, that is the real reason behind the resignation of the Macedonian ministry of Internal Affairs (police) and of the chief of the main intelligence agency.

Now, if you believe this is just Soros-paid BS, and in truth what happened is that the West has decided to topple a Russian-friendly government, then we should soon see more Russian friendly governments toppled.

Which prompts the most important question: can the Shirtless One do anything about it, or will the Russians sit again on the fence like they did in 1999?

[snuggans]

And like 4th Regiment said above, can anyone imagine 70+ armed terrorists and thugs crossing the border into any other European country and start shooting at will, it would've been
a cause for the activation of article 5. But here, its "armed groups" and "urban guerrillas" and similar euphemistic garbage coming from Brussels and other "bastions of democracy"! Really
disgusting, even for the European hypocrites and seasonal users of double standards!!!

Behavior of western media, and shameful statements of NATO Gen.Sec. (when he do not call terrorist terrorist, but for all sides to calm down ) and EU officials, is more then obvious for any body to see.(Maja Kocijanchich called them armed group!!, and my friend in Germany told they called them similar therms, "fighters", "urban guerrilla"! etc )

personally i like the term 'self defense forces' and 'volunteers', 'terrorist' is an ugly term, this is just self-determination. that most of them were from Kosovo doesn't really matter since they are on vacation and are volunteering, you can't prove that the Kosovo government sent them. this is just a Kosovophobic thread.

only 8 police dead? could have been worse, that's bloodless to be honest. this is one of the most bloodless takeover attempts ever.

Macedonia had this coming since I heard over the internet that they have been oppressing Albanians and could start throwing them in jail at any moment for speaking the Albanian languages in public.

[4th Regiment]

Macedonia had this coming since I heard over the internet that they have been oppressing Albanians and could start throwing them in jail at any moment for speaking the Albanian languages in public.

What else you have heard on internet? Eating Albanian babes? That is problem, we have people here commenting things and region they have no clue about ..like NATO have no idea what is going on there or it just came out of blue..

My friend, every single government since start of free elections was made with one or more Albanian parties participating (including current one). Albanian is always one of the vice presidents of the government (including current one). For long time Albanian was defense minister and also Chief of intelligence. Albanian is official language, it is essentially like French in Canada...Two policemen dead were Albanians...

8 dead and 36 wounded police officers are small casualties? Let it be, as you say

Dromi, Macedonia is not "Russian friendly", unless by that you consider desperate need for cheep gas source. Or like Bulgarians, they should got stewed ,by loosing cheep gas, loosing billions for construction of the pipe line, and loosing more than a billion annually due to transit tax. Will their American friends pay them back losses? My ass...

[StarDreamer]

What else you have heard on internet? Eating Albanian babes? That is problem, we have people here commenting things and region they have no clue about ..like NATO have no idea what is going on there or it just came out of blue..

My friend, every single government since start of free elections was made with one or more Albanian parties participating (including current one). Albanian is always one of the vice presidents of the government (including current one). For long time Albanian was defense minister and also Chief of intelligence. Albanian is official language, it is essentially like French in Canada...Two policemen dead were Albanians...

8 dead and 36 wounded police officers are small casualties? Let it be, as you say

Dromi, Macedonia is not "Russian friendly", unless by that you consider desperate need for cheep gas source. Or like Bulgarians, they should got stewed ,by loosing cheep gas, loosing billions for construction of the pipe line, and loosing more than a billion annually due to transit tax. Will their American friends pay them back losses? My ass...

You are not very good at noticing sarcasm are you? He is making fun of our russophiles fondness of random gunmen in donbass while they shout bloody murder for random gunmen in FYROM.

[4th Regiment]

You are not very good at noticing sarcasm are you? He is making fun of our russophiles fondness of random gunmen in donbass while they shout bloody murder for random gunmen in FYROM.

Conflict in Ukraine has totally different background, history etc and essentially starting when legal government was toppled by force and help from outside and than replaced by not very nice men at all.

We can discuss that when Ukraine become normal country, and you can put "Russian" instead of "Albanian" in second paragraph of my last post.

Before than, do not mix apples and oranges in this tread

[Dromikaites]

I have spent time in former Yugoslavia in the early '90s, when the wars were raging. Among other things I have seen the attempt to "liberate" Dubrovnik from the "Ustasi occupation", which would explain how my lack of sympathy for the Serbian side has started.

I also was in Macedonia long before the Albanian uprising. I can confirm from direct experience the Albanians were treated like second-class citizens in the early '90s and therefore the Macedonians at that time had it coming.

However the bad treatment didn't amount even back then to forbidding speaking the Albanian language. I seriously doubt that would be the case today, when almost each Macedonian government after the uprising has needed the support of the Albanian party.

Many of the people on this forum know I speak Russian and Bulgarian (the last one being mutually intelligible with Macedonian). Judging by what Macedonian media I can access on the web is saying for the last year or so, the country is a mess, with basically all the political parties being utterly corrupt. The ordinary people have only the possibility to replace a bunch of thieves with another bunch of thieves.

It is in this context that the Albanian terrorists incidents happened, right when the current government was in the midst of a scandal involving mass illegal surveillance of everybody who matters there, blackmails and, of course, the inevitable corruption and graft.

That is what makes me to believe the most recent accusations that the government had hired some Albanian troublemakers for what they hoped to be a minor incident (which would create the impression of an "external enemy") but then lost control of the operation.

That of course is no excuse for the Western management of Kosovo, which in spite of all the heavy EU, UN and NATO presence there is practically a gangster paradise. The Macedonian government would not have been able to recruit such mercenaries (if that indeed happened) without Kosovo being what it is.

As for Macedonia and Bulgaria losing money because of the EU opposition to building new pipelines, tough luck! The Ukrainians are losing lives for the "sin" of wanting to join the EU. In other words, the Ukrainians are killed for wanting to join a union where the Bulgarians are already members and which the Macedonians also want to be part of.

[pajomife]

1283
NATO loves starting and putting out brushfires in it's own backyard.

Like to justify it existence?

[Karnil Vark Khaitan]

Like to justify it existence?

Nahhh we have Putin to thanks about that :/

[Dromikaites]

Yeah, every time NATO seems to be useless somebody like Milosevic or Putin pops up.

[Heathen Hammer]

Yeah, every time NATO seems to be useless somebody like Milosevic or Putin pops up.

Putin was initially pro-NATO, while pro-NATO factions in Balkans weren't any better then Milosevic.