Fans suggestion thread for future releases

[parthian8]

I have very much enjoyed the new game, and I am also excited about the new ideas for 2.2.
The area of operations around me, the player, has been very interesting with neighbouring factions engaging with me in an improved way.
I was very surprised however to see he speed with which the Seleucids are now being reduced.
In both games it has been effectively dead (holding just Persepolis) before Antiochus the Great would have been out of nappies.

[romanius24]

Another suggestion for guilds:
This is an older post but i think its a great suggestion.

A Guild is a build tree. It has three levels. It can be associated with city, castle, or both.
You may have only one level 1 guild of any kind per city.
You may have only one level 2 guild of each kind per faction.
There can be only 1 level 3 guild of each kind in the whole game. This means you must compete with the other factions to attract a level 3 guild.
Specific types of guild can be restricted to specific factions.

It can be used for recruitment of units or characters.
It can have benefits relating to trade, happiness, law, public health, unit experience, or character statistics.
It can trigger events, perhaps other build trees.

To be built, the player has to receive an invitation from the Guild, meaning that you cannot start this build tree anytime you want.
You get invites from guilds by scoring "points" with them. For example, when you recruit a merchant, your score at the merchants guild (in the recruiting city) increases by 10. Each city keeps track of its score at each guild independently of your other cities.
The points accumulate until you hit the thresholds. The threshold for a guild house in the city is 100. As soon as you score 100 points with a guild in a city, they will approach you about building a house there (provided you have the money to build it). If you reject the offer, your score with the guild takes a penalty, and they will approach you again if the score reaches 100 again. If your score with a guild reaches 250 in a city, and you do not have a master guild with them yet, they will ask you to host their master guild. If your score reaches 500 and the guild hasn't built a world headquarters yet, they will ask you to host their headquarters. Every turn after the 25th turn, the normalization process takes place. Normalization is where you lose 1 point with every guild in all your cities. So if you train a spy in a city, 10 turns later the score boost is gone. You need to rapidly earn points with a guild before the normalization process cancels out your score.

Guild specific missions are possible, and if used can contribute to the points process for the next level of guild.

The role-playing opportunities should be obvious: guilds represent a whole new level of interaction with the game, where your actions directly influence the development paths that can open up to you, and a new and potentially non-military way to compete with other factions.

Some specific examples of what Guilds could represent.

Micro-factions

Guilds could easily represent small nations, regional powers or small tribes that are now subsumed in the Eleutheroi or as part of the various playable factions. The following list is not exhaustive or comprehensive, and I am not for a moment suggesting that this many separate guilds be created (at least not at first). But one or two of the best candidates could be used to represent micro-factions that may throw in their lot with one or more of the playable factions, depending on their actions.

To develop an example, let's take the Daha. Dahae skirmisher cavalry and Dahae riders are common mercenary units in the eastern part of the map. Many factions can also recruit Dahae units directly depending on their MIC and Government type. There is also a good unit of Dahae Noble Cavalry.
If there was to be a Daha 'Guild', what would happen is that the Dahae units would disappear from the normal recruitment system. Factions would have to earn points with the Daha in order to attract their support. This could be by hiring low-level Daha mercs- once you have enough Daha in your army, you have attracted the attention of the Daha nobles, who wish to offer you their qualified support. You build a level 1 Daha Guild (it wouldn't be called that ), which allows you to recruit Daha skirmishers directly, and maybe has some other effects associated with it (culture, happiness?). To reach level 2, you have to recruit lots of Dahae, and maybe complete a mission for them (conquer a specific territory?). Then you get the Dahae Riders. The best unit would be reserved for level 3 and represents the total commitment of the Dahae people to your cause. Although any other faction that has managed to attract level 1 and 2 Dahae Guilds can recruit skirmishers, only you have the mighty Dahae Nobles on your side.

Again, these examples are only some possibilities.

Tribes
Iberian Tribes (17 units)
Belgae (4 units currently)
Daha (3 units)
Carnutes (1 unit)
Ordes
Chatti
Goidelic (5 or 6 units)
Skuda (4 units)
Aursa (2 or 3 units)
Boii
Cimbri
Teutones
Bastarnae
Thracians (4 or 5 units)

Smaller Kingdoms, Confederacies and Polities

I see this group as subtly different than tribes. These are more advanced societies, more tied to one place, and could have much more specific triggers, or be for certain factions only. Being offered a guild by a small kingdom represents an alliance or treaty, and could have significant impacts on public order, trade, culture penalties etc. The fact that you would have to work to earn the trust and support of a smaller kingdom while balancing their demands against those your other 'guilds' would be role-playing heaven. At level 3, perhaps some of these kinds of guilds could offer you recruitable generals to join your family.

Illyria
Maccabees (wouldn't this be fun?)
Galatia
Commagene
Mauryan (9 units)
Persians and Medes (7 or 8 units)
Massylia (if it doesn't make it in as a faction)
Massaesylia (ditto)
Garama
Mauretania
Nabataea
Samnium (2 or 3 units at least)
Megale Hellas The Greek City States of southern Italy weren't automatically aligned with Pyhrros!


The use of guilds to represent semi-playable micro-factions potentially blows the lid off of faction limitations. There is also the possibility of a system of faction development like the one Dominion of the Sword is working on, which could be tied into the micro- and intra-factional guilds to determine how your faction changes over time.

Intra-factional Structures

Here I mean something quite different than above. Even within a solidly homogeneous faction, there are elements that lend themselves to a Guild build tree. A generic one would be Nobles- why should you be able to count on the unequivocal support of the nobility of your kingdom? What if you couldn't? Many factions have important elite units that represent the fighting nobility. Recruitment of these units could depend on the Nobles Guild build tree, which would have to be specific to each faction ( i.e. only the Parthians could have a Parthian Nobles Guild ). If we're talking Macedonians, the Hypaspistai and Hetairoi would be available to you only after you've convinced the nobles that you are worthy of their support, and so on.

Nobles of any faction
Koinon ton Makedonon - you may be King of Macedon, but can you keep the support of the Assembly of Macedonians? Could be tied to Pezhetairoi recruitment.
Greek Leagues - if the Aitolians and Achaeans don't make it as factions, they can be political organizations that you must conciliate to keep control of Greece. Could be used for Iphikratid Hoplites.
Tribal Confederacies
Comitia Centuriata or Concilium Plebis (Romans only, of course)
Druidic Colleges (Isle of Mona) (Celtic factions, maybe Casse only?)
Spartan Agoge (I think that this would be much better as a guild than a Gov type. Could recruit Spartan hoplites.)

Current Build Trees

Some of the build trees currently in place in EB1 could be turned into guilds, representing the contribution of someone other than the faction leader to the development of the nation.

Temples and Religion (level 2 recruits an agent?)
Games and Festivals (level 2 recruits an agent?)
Schools
Slave Economy (decreases build times and costs, increases unrest?)
Kleruchies (tied to Kleruch unit recruitment?)
Machimoi


Concepts and Ideologies

This is the least-developed part of my thinking but potential the most powerful game-play tool. Guilds could be used to represent various kinds of ideas and movements that transcend normal factional allegiances. Whatever the religion system of M2TW becomes, a related guild system could be developed that would allow you to role-play your characters to a whole new level. If, as has been suggested, religion turns into something to do with political ideology, you could have the governor of a city that builds a city popular assembly be offered the Democracy Guild, with who knows what affects?

Pan-Hellenism
Political Allegiances
Reforms, Uniting Events
Time of Bondsmen/Time of Soldiers


It would not be necessary to choose between different kinds of guilds or concepts: EBII could have a few guilds that represent micro-factions, a couple that represent intra-factional structures and one that stands for an abstract concept.

I think that there is a lot of possibilities here, of which I have only scratched the surface. I am sure that the EB team has already had some great ideas about this, but I hope by throwing this out there that it might be of some help and interest.

Credit to 'oudysseos': http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...=1#post2080222

[QuintusSertorius]

Hi Quintus,

I have played he new game through to about 160 turns twice now on H/H.
I read that you have games testers playing the bottom off it. I also can't see if there is a thread dedicated to old-style faction progression reports.
Does this mean independent feedback on this issue is no longer required?

The playtest team are checking the dev build, but it's still useful to have feedback on 2.1b, in case there are things we've missed.

[Rad]

You cant argue that low morale can be good thing for a unit, especially a AI controlled one. There is a chance that they will return, and there is a chance that they will run for good. Cavalry makes the chance of return irrelevant, since it will mow down any fleeing unit. I am not going to make some house rule that states that I should allow routed enemy units a chance to reorganize. It would be highly inaccurate not to exploit such an opportunity. If the battle allows, I will chase after them and get them all, especially if I am playing with a cavalry centric nation. +1 morale is not that big of an impact, but it could improve AI survivability, thus making the game more interesting.

If it is too much work for you folks, give me the unit file, I will edit values that are 2 to 3.

To link to this.
The two units that really do deserve a morale boost are Maure infantry and Lybian skirmishers. Both have much better equipment and stats than your average levy skirmisher. I hate to mention specific units as it is making favorites, but they really do deserve it.

[Doulkus Pontikus]

I am all for it!
The Guild System looks promising and super realistic.
I don't know if it can be implemented though...
What does our beloved developement team say?

[romanius24]

I do hope the team will use any mechanic that can be implemented. M2 has some really cool features.

[Roma_Victrix]

I've already done this for my own game by editing the Export_Descr_Unit file, but you guys should consider either creating a unique unit model for the "roman cavalry equites consulares" (i.e. the Roman general's bodyguard) or changing the soldier model from Camillan equites to Polybian equites like I've done in my own campaign. I know the game starts in 272 BC, but to be honest, the vast majority of the game, from then until 14 AD, belongs to the Polybian military era for Rome. By the time the Marian reforms have kicked in and you're marching around with Marian-era Roman legions, it looks rather ridiculous that your bodyguards are still riding around with throwbacks to the primitive Camillan era. Is it simply impossible for the Roman bodyguard unit to be upgraded? Medieval II had "early" and "late" bodyguards; since EB II is built on the same engine, can't you guys do the same thing for the Romans? I do remember issues with this involving other mods, though, like Stainless Steel and TATW, where the bodyguards of family members could not be upgraded to an entirely new model. However, couldn't it be done with a simple "armor upgrade"?

[Cohors_Evocata]

I've already done this for my own game by editing the Export_Descr_Unit file, but you guys should consider either creating a unique unit model for the "roman cavalry equites consulares" (i.e. the Roman general's bodyguard) or changing the soldier model from Camillan equites to Polybian equites like I've done in my own campaign. I know the game starts in 272 BC, but to be honest, the vast majority of the game, from then until 14 AD, belongs to the Polybian military era for Rome. By the time the Marian reforms have kicked in and you're marching around with Marian-era Roman legions, it looks rather ridiculous that your bodyguards are still riding around with throwbacks to the primitive Camillan era. Is it simply impossible for the Roman bodyguard unit to be upgraded? Medieval II had "early" and "late" bodyguards; since EB II is built on the same engine, can't you guys do the same thing for the Romans? I do remember issues with this involving other mods, though, like Stainless Steel and TATW, where the bodyguards of family members could not be upgraded to an entirely new model. However, couldn't it be done with a simple "armor upgrade"?

I believe creating late bodyguard units requires extra unit slots (unless, as you mentioned, we were to use an armour upgrade) and we already have less than 20 unit slots left not reserved for new units. As such, I think creating late generals is very low on the priority list at the moment. Tbh I'm personally in favour of scrapping the Polybian equites and giving their Camillan equivalent an armour (i.e. skin) upgrade: the only difference stat-wise is one more point of armour (i.e. perfect for an armour upgrade) and we've got other units currently using said system where a separate late unit would be more fitting (the late Numidian nobles and Late Libyan infantry (in 2.2) don't perform nearly as well as their looks would suggest). That's just my personal opinion though, nothing official.

[Rad]

How about a period neutral looking Equites Consulares? Armored with muscle cuirasses, linothorax and squamata/plumata (dunno if scale can pass for Camillian, but it sure does for Polybian and Marian, and it adds variety).

However, I do feel that armor upgrades/late units would do a better job representing them. Think of the above suggestion as a last resort.

[romanius24]

I think armor upgrades can actually change the look completely, not just add armor.
This way you can make the general unit look like: Camillan, Polybian Equites and then Marian Auxilliary.

The moddeling/texture work is basically done, you just need to use it and no unit slots will be wasted.

[Rad]

Yes they can, but do we really want a unit that looks like them? Other factions have elite cavalry units as bodyguards... Rome has cavalry lol.
One would be reasonable to expect that their leadership would be a bit more impressive, despite Rome not being a cavalry nation.

[Roma_Victrix]

I think armor upgrades can actually change the look completely, not just add armor.
This way you can make the general unit look like: Camillan, Polybian Equites and then Marian Auxilliary.

The moddeling/texture work is basically done, you just need to use it and no unit slots will be wasted.

It's very simple to do that, actually. For instance, here is the Equites Consulares entry in the export_descr_unit file:

; COMMENTS              Equites Consulares (Republican Consular Guard Cavalry) / Unit ID 173 / Start exp: 0 / Refr rate: 0,01536 / Pool cap: 2
type                    roman cavalry equites consulares
dictionary              roman_cavalry_equites_consulares
category                cavalry
class                   heavy
voice_type              General
accent                  Roman_Latin
banner faction          main_cavalry
banner holy             crusade
soldier                 Equites_Camillan, 20, 0, 1.0
mount                   horse_unarmoured
mount_effect            elephant -3
attributes              sea_faring, hide_forest, general_unit, command, knight, can_withdraw
move_speed_mod          1.0925
formation               1.85, 3.7, 3.7, 3.7, 3, square
stat_health             1, 6
stat_pri                8, 11, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, piercing, spear, 0, 1
stat_pri_attr           no
stat_sec                0, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, piercing, none, 25, 1
stat_sec_attr           no
stat_pri_armour         6, 9, 3, metal
stat_sec_armour         0, 0, flesh
stat_heat               3
stat_ground             -1, -5, -5, -5
stat_mental             7, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist        29
stat_fire_delay         0
stat_food               60, 300
stat_cost               1, 1260, 31, 13, 69, 1260, 1, 315
stat_stl                1
armour_ug_levels        0
armour_ug_models        Equites_Camillan
ownership               f_rome, slave
era 0                   f_rome
era 1                   f_rome
era 2                   f_rome
info_pic_dir            f_all
card_pic_dir            f_all
recruit_priority_offset 3

If you wanted to upgrade the model to eventually look like Polybian Equites instead of Camillan ones, and finally as auxiliary cavalry, you simply need to edit two of these fields as such:

armour_ug_levels        0, 1, 2
armour_ug_models        Equites_Camillan, Equites_Polybian, Equites_Marian

Currently, my own customized EDU file looks like this for the "equites consulares" entry:

armour_ug_levels        0
armour_ug_models        Equites_Polybian

...meaning that they always look like Polybian Equites, from 272 BC onwards.

Making them look like Marian "equites auxilium" might produce problems, though, won't it? Seeing how that model and skeleton is designed for throwing javelins as short-range missile/skirmisher cavalry. The equites consulares have no such ability granted to them. In fact, their primary weapon is a spear, with no secondary weapon, whereas "equites auxilium" use the javelins as their primary weapon and a sword as their secondary weapon. That is simply incompatible with the "consulares" unit and, correct me if I'm wrong, would make the game crash, right? In which case you'd be better off just having your file look like this, to exclude the Marian cavalry and only have a Polybian upgrade:

armour_ug_levels        0, 1
armour_ug_models        Equites_Camillan, Equites_Polybian

[gustave]

Equites consulares are planned and their shields are already made, but I believe they are low-priority for now.

[Rad]

Somewhat inspired by the boatloads of Galatians and Thracians some factions are going to get, this happened.


Factional units for Carthage consisting of Celts and Iberians. Those units would more heavily armored than their average countrymen and would get armor upgrades with the reform(s).
Reasons - 1. Consistently and massively appearing in Carthaginian armies through history. These units would not represent mercenaries, but subject peoples and retainers who are more permanently attached to Carthage.
2. The inability of one faction to benefit from another factions armor reform. I find it odd that Celts in the service of Carthage would be proportionately less equipped than those serving back home. If anything, it would be the reverse.

Area of recruitment would be regions in Iberia and Cisalpine/Transalpine Gaul directly controlled by Carthage. Recruitment in Africa is debatable - but not impossible (retainers).

[Hohenstaufen234]

I think the population model should be revised. Now it shows households but what is households in the real meaning? Isn´t it better to represent the cities actual population that they had at the time?
At least the Romans did regular census of just citizens so Rome itself must have been home to at least 500,000 people by the time of the Punic Wars.
Sources tell that Carthage itself had well over 500,000 living in the city.

It don´t have to be that high, just a better representation of the population in the cities. Now they seem so small.

[QuintusSertorius]

Households aren't changing, they represent exactly what they say they do.

[Hohenstaufen234]

They represent the pater families, but what of the other 500,000+ living in Rome, Carthage, Capua and so on?
Do you understand where im trying to get? Im not saying this model sucks or anything, it just feels wrong that the only "pater familias" shall be represented when there are other tens of thousands living in the cities.
But the households is always something i guess, thinking rp-wise

[wermez]

Keep in mind that EB2 armies number max. 4000 men, not 40000 men, so there is no need for 100000+ city population.

[QuintusSertorius]

They represent the pater families, but what of the other 500,000+ living in Rome, Carthage, Capua and so on?
Do you understand where im trying to get? Im not saying this model sucks or anything, it just feels wrong that the only "pater familias" shall be represented when there are other tens of thousands living in the cities.
But the households is always something i guess, thinking rp-wise

The state doesn't care about the non-voting, non-tax-paying, non-serving masses represented by women, children, slaves and foreigners. Not only that, we have a single figure that has to apply across cultures. Slavery wasn't as big a thing for nomads, so trying to guess a different population base for each one, and use different multipliers and so on would just get messy.

[Hohenstaufen234]

The state doesn't care about the non-voting, non-tax-paying, non-serving masses represented by women, children, slaves and foreigners. Not only that, we have a single figure that has to apply across cultures. Slavery wasn't as big a thing for nomads, so trying to guess a different population base for each one, and use different multipliers and so on would just get messy.

Yes i know that. And of course it would mean a great deal of work trying to get every city right with how much people where living there, since not all people did a census of the Empires/States.
But now that i understand the Household system i can RP that there are more people in the cities, and that the state (For me the Roman State) doesn´t care about the lower classes, slaves, foreigners and so forth. Only the prominent is displayed
It was just something i wondered about since i love the mod and i love to RP my games and care about certain FM´s and certain gens in the family tree

This is a great mod and i love it to death. It kick Rome2 it the arse to put it right and i and many others eagerily awaits the new release
So keep up the good work! What you (The EB2 Team) has done so far is amazing!