[UNITS] The Republic of Carthage

[ABH2]

Livy is the only one who mentions the 4k Macedonians at Zama. That would be a very odd detail for Polybius of all historians to leave out. The only other account is Appian's from much later, and he, too, does not mention it. Nor do I think Macedon was in much of a position to spare 4k men for Carthage or see much point at that time. Philip had already made peace with the Romans, was occupied elsewhere, and he never sent Hannibal any forces all that time he was in Italy, but sent them to Africa when Carthage? Most historians do not believe Livy on this, and view it as little more than bolstering the pretext for the war against Macedon that was too come.

Livy is the same historian who pretended that the siege of Saguntum took place over a period of 3 weeks instead of 8 months to avoid admitting that Rome abandoned its treaty obligations. Inventing 4k Macedonians at Zama would hardly be beyond him.

After a lot of research online it seems that the only reason Carthaginians didn't use pikes widely (one can assume with a probability) was due to it being impractical against most of their enemies/in the landscape they fought in at that current time (iberian hilly terrain, african vast plains fighting against skirmishers/cavalry or how it seems Romans have adapted to deal with enemy pikemen formations) - but this being a game and you being able to fight any one that Carthaginians didn't fight historically makes me believe that some latitude towards "what if"-units should be given.

That's a game that could be played all day, and tends to lead to rosters that are carbon copies of one another. Carthage in its late stages does actually get some what if units that become more heavily mailed and such. but I see no reason to fundamentally change the nature in which they fought based on what-ifs. If Carthage managed to become an empire on par with the Roman in this sandbox, I don't see why they would change their entire system.

Carthage will have access to a wide array of AOR and mercenary troops. Giving them access to Hellenistic AOR in campaign is a possibility.

[Kranos]

Guys I hope you will use another helmet type for elite units. Even its coool dont know how accurate is.

[ABH2]

Sorry, but can I ask which helmet you are referring to it particular?

[Kranos]

sacred band infantry and cav (both early and late), hanibal cav unit. Also keeping the grey/silver color theme for them isn very realistic and besides this an elite unit would have too be more colourfull. Regarding your colaboration with Dei I think they did better decision when comes to their aspect.

[Little Legionaire]

Wonderful work guys! Hats off,

I'm happy to share our stuff with you dear friends, its all yours. Godspeed!

Btw, try my Samnite shields for your Italic / Latin units for extra variety.

Regards,
LL

[Petellius]

Wonderful work guys! Hats off,

I'm happy to share our stuff with you dear friends, its all yours. Godspeed!

Btw, try my Samnite shields for your Italic / Latin units for extra variety.

Regards,
LL

We probably will if we expand on the italic units. Thanks for your work and support it means a lot

[ABH2]

Also, Little Legionaire, in the future any Youtube video that covers our units will definitely give credit to you and I'll try to make sure a link to your work. So much if this early stuff is really yours. It doesn't feel quite right when we get so much praise for how great they look. We can't thank you enough.

[Kranos]

sacred band infantry and cav (both early and late), hanibal cav unit. Also keeping the grey/silver color theme for them isn very realistic and besides this an elite unit would have too be more colourfull. Regarding your colaboration with Dei I think they did better decision when comes to their aspect.

well?

[Petellius]

Well what?

[UMCenturion]

Wonderful work guys! Hats off,

I'm happy to share our stuff with you dear friends, its all yours. Godspeed!

Btw, try my Samnite shields for your Italic / Latin units for extra variety.

Regards,
LL

Yes we greatly appreciate you allowing this team to use these. So much detail went into the units and it's mesmerizing. great work sir!

[ABH2]

sacred band infantry and cav (both early and late), hanibal cav unit. Also keeping the grey/silver color theme for them isn very realistic and besides this an elite unit would have too be more colourfull. Regarding your colaboration with Dei I think they did better decision when comes to their aspect.

The Sacred Band are using a variation of a Thracian helmet:



Mods have been using Thracian helmets. DeI uses them mixed in with their Sacred Band unit, as well, along with a few other variations.

On the color scheme, the early ones currently wear Tyrian purple and the late ones would if we could. In terms of saying it's not 'realistic,' no one actually knows what they looked like. The only description we get is from the 4th century of the Sacred Band, and they are described wearing purple. It's not reflected in the early pictures here.

But in general, your opinion of what is historical is just your guess. Nor do I know how gold and silver isn't an appropriate elite designation. Not everyone will be pleased with the look of each unit.

[Kranos]

yup ofc thracian helmets but the variation one you are using is based on the vanilla weird interpretation (among many others ) of a thracian helmet. It would be great if you would add the variation you provided above mixed with other type of helmets.

Nor do I know how gold and silver isn't an appropriate elite designation

Now seriously this is the best conclusion or "guess" your whole team came up to?

If you cant see over this immense stereotype at least add a bit of color variation to that white of their mantles for Baal sake. This elite unit look like landed from another galaxy among the others so beautifull and well assorted units of your rosters.

[Petellius]

yup ofc thracian helmets but the variation one you are using is based on the vanilla weird interpretation (among many others ) of a thracian helmet. It would be great if you would add the variation you provided above mixed with other type of helmets.

Now seriously this is the best conclusion or "guess" your whole team came up to?

If you cant see over this immense stereotype at least add a bit of color variation to that white of their mantles for Baal sake. This elite unit look like landed from another galaxy among the others so beautifull and well assorted units of your rosters.

While we understand that everyone wants things done right, there comes a point where it's just rude. I've been known to fall into the same trap on many an occasion so I get it, but maybe rethink how to approach a subject like this.

On the unit itself we will look into all the units once our sub mod is out and make a decision then. This is as we will have access to everything DeI has used and so can create more diverse units with more resources than (mostly) little legionaires work.

[ABH2]

Some more variety for the Sacred Band unit is possible. DeI elements have never been incorporated into the Carthage units, as stated. I would like to do custom thureos shields for them at some point, and give the late version colored tunics. The early version has colored tunics.

Helmet wise, it will depend on what we have that matches. I do not mean to give the impression that we think our units are perfect or set in stone. The late Saced Band was already considered unfinished. In terms of talking historical accuracy, though, there is a high degree of guesswork involved.

[Anibal at portas]

first of all say that I would have preferred that the mod started right at the beginning of the Second Punic War and have so historical generals such as Hannibal or Scipio at its best, yet the historical beginning that you will have the mod is also good but I'm going to the party so far has caught my attention in this mod, mod watching units and historical starting date, I have almost no historical reproach upon the uniformity of the Roman Republic.
Instead I saw the roster of units Carthage and there if I have objections to the uniformity of the troops of Carthage, almost all units if not all have an aspect of elite troops, with elaborate armor, shields, helmets and clothing, giving the impression of historicity in appearance than they are regular troops and militia troops are making up most of an army of printing antigüedad.da expensive units that are all something unreal and unhistorical, because if we see the roster of Carthage would not be enough money to maintain an army with this equipment so elaborate that looks more like an army to ritual, parades and elite and not just warriors dressed in a simple helmet,a simple shield unadorned and tunic almost without any armor made of metal or leather depending on whether they are troops of militia or regular and not very ornate warriors ornaments and armor, you need to historical realism and simplicity in the design of the units it is what is best on demand and dipping.
hopefully this will consider when the developer to give a historically accurate units and rectify the mod on other factions equipment.
naturally there will be some elite unit in any faction, not all, because the Roman Republic only has the velites, hastati, princes, triarii equites and the guard usually without auxiliary provincial units and auxiliary legions and not there is no elite unit, this richly adorned and equipped and there stand out over all other units in the army.
I would like to know the opinion of the mod team about this issue and if you are going to change the roster of Carthage and take that unreal elite units and if the other factions have historically realistic units.
congratulations for the idea and the work you are doing.

[ABH2]

Instead I saw the roster of units Carthage and there if I have objections to the uniformity of the troops of Carthage, almost all units if not all have an aspect of elite troops, with elaborate armor, shields, helmets and clothing, giving the impression of historicity in appearance than they are regular troops and militia troops are making up most of an army of printing antigüedad.da expensive units that are all something unreal and unhistorical, because if we see the roster of Carthage would not be enough money to maintain an army with this equipment so elaborate that looks more like an army to ritual

Polybius and Livy describe the Iberians in Carthaginian service as wearing white uniforms with purple trimming. Upon the sack of Carthage at the end of the Third Punic War, over 50k cuirasses were reported along with a ton of other military equipment. The troops Hannibal took with him into Italy had campaigned with him for some time and had a good deal of loot distributed to them to buy loyalty which was hardly a new Barca practice. Carthage was very rich.

Nor do I see the point. The Libyan and Punic militia troops aren't that fancy. They have a mixture of lower level helmets, plenty of plain linothoraxes with some nicer ones thrown in, and simple shield decals for their hoplons. The thureos shield itself was very cheap.

The Carthaginians were far wealthier than the Romans. Even the Greeks surpassed the Romans at this point in wealth. The Romans could still afford things like colored tunics and crests. Each Roman soldier, we are told, had colored feathered crests. Nearly all Italian troops were depicted with red uniforms where color survives.

Once again, I'll reiterate my point above. I see someone putting their opinion out or however they think the Carthaginians should look based on some idea they have in their head, and telling us we should do it that way. I don't see a historical argument with sources. I don't even see particular units for critique. I've had people with credentials look over this roster and the appearance of troops. I've hashed over the sources and what they tell us about the Carthaginian troops. And I can look at the myself. I don't see this extravagance you speak of. At all.

[Anibal at portas]

Polybius and Livy describe the Iberians in Carthaginian service as wearing white uniforms with purple trimming. Upon the sack of Carthage at the end of the Third Punic War, over 50k cuirasses were reported along with a ton of other military equipment. The troops Hannibal took with him into Italy had campaigned with him for some time and had a good deal of loot distributed to them to buy loyalty which was hardly a new Barca practice. Carthage was very rich.

Nor do I see the point. The Libyan and Punic militia troops aren't that fancy. They have a mixture of lower level helmets, plenty of plain linothoraxes with some nicer ones thrown in, and simple shield decals for their hoplons. The thureos shield itself was very cheap.




The Carthaginians were far wealthier than the Romans. Even the Greeks surpassed the Romans at this point in wealth. The Romans could still afford things like colored tunics and crests. Each Roman soldier, we are told, had colored feathered crests. Nearly all Italian troops were depicted with red uniforms where color survives.

Once again, I'll reiterate my point above. I see someone putting their opinion out or however they think the Carthaginians should look based on some idea they have in their head, and telling us we should do it that way. I don't see a historical argument with sources. I don't even see particular units for critique. I've had people with credentials look over this roster and the appearance of troops. I've hashed over the sources and what they tell us about the Carthaginian troops. And I can look at the myself. I don't see this extravagance you speak of. At all.

only have to look at other mods as europe barbarorum or roma surrrectum and see properly historical units in its uniformity and not overloaded with ornaments like this roster of carthage.
hopefully with the remaining factions,the simplicity of uniformity that existed historically and shall not go into overload ornaments and armor to all units.

[Willhelm123]

They look like basic early Libyan troops, not the Sacred Band.

[Petellius]

Not really sure how that is for far from this unit.

Which is an early light Libyan unit, just like those other pictures. In fact I actually based these guys on those RSII pictures as I've said many times before I am heavily influenced by.

[ABH2]

only have to look at other mods as europe barbarorum or roma surrrectum and see properly historical units in its uniformity and not overloaded with ornaments like this roster of carthage.

I ask for historical sources, and you come back with pictures from other mods. First, no criticism for RSII or EB here - they were modding for a completely different engine. What you see as uniformity and lack of 'ornament' was mostly a result of limitations in the game. It was only possible to have one shield and one helmet etc. They couldn't add the variety we have. Nor is variety the same as ornamentation. Some basic plumes, and linothoraxes is ornamentation now?

We've used the same armors, shields, and helmets as those mods.

You didn't respond to any of the points I made on Carthage's wealth. Based on what you've put forth here, I'll go back to my original point. You have an idea in your head of how units should look and it has little to do with historical accuracy.

the simplicity of uniformity that existed historically and shall not go into overload ornaments and armor to all units.

I really doubt Carthaginian mercenaries were all running out in the same unadorned pylos helmets and the same color tunic...