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Thread: [UNITS] The Republic of Carthage

  1. #1

    Default [UNITS] The Republic of Carthage

    Credits
    Credits Attila/Little Legionaire's Army Mod - The Legionaire mod provided the core material from which most of these units were made. Shield designs and helmets are largely a product of their work. We can't thank this mod enough. Without their generosity, our unit creation would be far behind where it is. If you play their mod, you will notice a strong influence on what is seen below. Legionaire Army Mod
    Hloeric/Romanorum Acies - Some of Hloeric's Romanorum Acies work is featured in these units. He also made our custom Hannibal helmet seen below. Romanorum Acies on Steam
    Mithias - Mithias has become a quiet, but essential contributor to our mod team as a historical consultant of sorts. He has advised us on our Carthaginian and Hellenistic unit rosters to help us produce accurate work.
    The_Germans_Are_Coming (Steam Workshop)- GaC does high quality texture work, and has kindly granted us permission to make use of it our mod. His work has allowed us to greatly increase the variety in our units with a large number of new linothoraxes to go with new elephant towers and blankets. We will continue to work the textures he has provided us into our future work.
    Gustave - made Carthaginian shields used in our overhaul here. He is a member of the Europa Barbarorum II who released and updated his shield designs for Rome II.



    *Hannibal and Scipio. Hannibal remains a work in progress.

    Introductions and Reforms Explanation
    Introduction By 264 BC, Carthage had established itself as the dominant mercantile and naval power of the Western Mediterranean. With the decline of the Hellenistic states after a half a century of in-fighting, it stood as perhaps the strongest power period. Its empire stretched along the Libyan and North African coasts and into Iberia where it held hegemony over the other Punic colonies. The local Libyan population made up the basis of its land forces with a nucleus of Phoenician officers and elites. Through its trade contacts, it could call upon mercenaries from throughout Italy, Sicily, Corsica et Sardinia, Iberia, and nearby Moorish and Berber tribes. While the Romans disparaged these forces as mere mercenaries, the system itself would prove remarkably resilient. Unluckily for Carthage, only Rome, its closest true threat, proved itself more capable of bouncing back from defeat. Evidence indicates that Carthage used its massive wealth to supply much of its mercenary forces. After the Third Punic War and the sack of the city, the Romans found large supplies of cuirasses and arms despite draconian limitations placed upon after the conclusion of the Hannibalic War. The cavalry likely fought with spears good for throwing and melee, but was otherwise equipped similarly to the heavy infantry. Tthe Spartan mercenary Xanthippus found the Carthaginian cavalry to be high quality. To build up the infantry, he introduced Hellenistic style drill.

    The early forces of Carthage were armed and fought mostly in the Greek fashion. Linothoraxes, dory spears, hoplons, and greaves made up the basic kit of the heavy infantry. This force was supplemented by highly skilled light infantry. The Iberians made use of the small round caetra shield, the soliferrum (an iron javelin similar to the pilum), and well made iron swords. While lightly armored, they were versatile and capable soldiers in the hands of the right general. Sometime during the conquest of Hispania, the Iberian forces began to longer scutum type shields used by the Celtiberians who also occasionally served as mercenaries for the Barcids. The Celts and Ligurians fought with javelins, spears, and their longswords with elites donning mail armor. The Moorish tribes contributed some of the archers and javelinmen. The Sardinian tribes provided quality archers while the Balearic isles contributed highly skilled slingers. From Sicily came various mercenaries; some in the Greek fashion, and some more lightly armed tribal elements.

    After the First Punic War, Hamilcar Barca subdued the Numidian tribes and built strong relationships with their chieftains that would serve himself and his sons well until the end of the century. While looking rag tagged, the Numidians were perhaps the elite light cavalry of the ancient world, and would teach the Romans harsh lessons. In Iberia, Hamilcar and his successor Hasdrubal the Fair likely introduced the oval thureos shield to their forces as the terrain and tactics of the local tribes would have been inhospitible to hoplite forces. They retained spears as their primary weapons, but also carried swords for close combat. Hannibal's army also likely began to employ javelins in a similar fashion as the Roman heavy infantry. Hannibal famously began to equip his men with discarded Roman equipment to include mail armor and scutums. He also drew upon Italian allies to supplement his forces, though they rarely showed a willingness to leave their own territory. By the Third Punic War, the thureos and longche seem to have been fully adopted by all Carthaginian forces.

    The versatility of Carthage's forces served as a lesson for the Romans who themselves would make contingents of these 'mercenaries' part of their own forces in the second century. Numidian light cavalry would become a staple in Roman armies along with Balearic slingers, Iberian cavalry, and at times, heavy infantry.




    Early Carthaginians

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    Reformed Carthaginians
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    Libyan Units

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    Reformed Libyan Units
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    Carthaginian Mercenaries
    Early















    Late





    Unit Cards


    Wallpapers
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    Last edited by ABH2; February 13, 2016 at 04:43 PM.
    Vespasian's own: Up the Augusta! For Cato!

    AE: Battle Balancing and BAI.

  2. #2

    Default Re: [Preview] Carthaginian Roster

    I'm very happy to finally be able to make this public. A few notes not in the main post:
    • These units were made before our DeI partnership, so at this point in time they do not include any of their components. Like with our early Romans, we will probably end up intermixing elements from both when we can find the time.
    • Hannibal remains a work in progress. Right now, that is how CA portrayed him with a few pieces added in (a brand new helmet, an armor thrown on top). We hope to redo the textures - particularly the ugly purple used by CA. The cloak is Tyrian purple, but for some reason the Attila faction selection screen displays the colors differently. We will see what we can do there.
    • Hannibal/Scipio are currently represented as units players can select in custom battles. They will be normal bodyguard units with the custom generals as officers.
    • Not all Carthaginian units are shown above. The roster is rather large with all of their AOR units thrown in and reforms included. A few were left out but will be shown later.
    • There is one issue in the preview - the Sicilian units have some missing armors. In game, this is fine, but when the picture was taken there were some missing files.


    I'd like to thank Petellius once again for the awesome screenshots and wallpapers. He produces great previews that really showcase the units. This is particularly great because much of the work that constitutes the units isn't our own, but comes from outside mods/modders kind enough to let us use their work. It's awesome to be able to show it all in its glory.

    Please, critique away. We are aiming for historical accuracy. With a roster this size, there are a number of things people can nitpick on, I'm sure. Some decisions we will defend/explain our reasoning, but there's things that may just be wrong.


  3. #3

    Default Re: [Preview] Carthaginian Roster

    These look great, incredible work

    Random note, I love the dynamic nature of your unit cards.

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  4. #4

    Default Re: [Preview] Carthaginian Roster

    Thanks for the kind words. They are always appreciated, but especially so coming from yourself. But it's really mostly the work of others. We can't thank the Legionaire mod team/Attila enough, and Germans are coming for his contributions.

    The unit cards are all UMC. He is continuously tweaking and refining what he does on his own. And Petellius brings a lot of the units in and puts them together.

    Down the road we can add in DeI's great work to the above, as well. We had these units done for quite a while, but were lagging on the preview with Petellius away. Need to find the time to go back and revise.
    Last edited by ABH2; June 25, 2015 at 02:47 AM.


  5. #5
    UMCenturion's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: [Preview] Carthaginian Roster

    Quote Originally Posted by Dresden View Post
    These look great, incredible work

    Random note, I love the dynamic nature of your unit cards.
    Thanks Dresden. Hearing that from you is truly an honor.

    Mod Lead - UI/2D Art - Custom Map Editing

  6. #6
    Ritter-Floh's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: [Preview] Carthaginian Roster

    a really nice preview, i love the shield patterns!

  7. #7
    The Wandering Storyteller's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: [Preview] Carthaginian Roster

    I must say Petllieus, you seriously are an amazing unit mod editor! I love this preview, and I am stunned - this looks like the Rome 2 in detail!!! I love the Sacred Bands(don't change them as they are fine), and the Hannibalic veterans - love that unit. Hopefully this will be awesome!!1

    I cannot wait to see, can I download a WIP to test this out?????????????????????

    This.is.CARRRRRRRTTTTTTTTTAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGHHHHHHEEEEEEEE¬!!!

    @Random
    Truly well done cards - they seem more akin to that of Rome 1's carthage unit cards





















































  8. #8
    The Wandering Storyteller's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: [Preview] Carthaginian Roster

    Can I promote this on the other forums?





















































  9. #9
    UMCenturion's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: [Preview] Carthaginian Roster

    Quote Originally Posted by Age of Empires 2 HD View Post
    I must say Petllieus, you seriously are an amazing unit mod editor! I love this preview, and I am stunned - this looks like the Rome 2 in detail!!! I love the Sacred Bands(don't change them as they are fine), and the Hannibalic veterans - love that unit. Hopefully this will be awesome!!1

    I cannot wait to see, can I download a WIP to test this out?????????????????????

    This.is.CARRRRRRRTTTTTTTTTAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGHHHHHHEEEEEEEE¬!!!

    @Random
    Truly well done cards - they seem more akin to that of Rome 1's carthage unit cards
    In regards to the cards - thanks! that is what I was aiming for, with it's own uniqueness. Glad you noticed And promote away. Word of mouth is the best advertisement.

    Mod Lead - UI/2D Art - Custom Map Editing

  10. #10
    The Wandering Storyteller's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: [Preview] Carthaginian Roster

    Quote Originally Posted by UMCenturion View Post
    In regards to the cards - thanks! that is what I was aiming for, with it's own uniqueness. Glad you noticed And promote away. Word of mouth is the best advertisement.
    Brilliant, I'm already noticing that this is no ordinary mod. I cannot wait for the Parthians@(you can take all the cataphracts from the Sassiands, put them in the Parthian roster, and please have face masked helmets, I admire cataphracts that have more face masks, its a gameplay sort of thing), no problem. Alright if I promote this on the Attila total war forums? I'd love Parthia to have some immortal units.

    But this is well done!

    You have made me very excited for this mod!





















































  11. #11
    Maetharin's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: [Preview] Carthaginian Roster

    will there be veterans of Hannibal with roman equipment available? maybe only recruitable in Italy or sth.

    Additionally, will there be a Nova Carthago faction? I know it´s arguably "inofficial", but the Barkas practicably ruled the lands in Iberia as independent state.
    Furthermore the AI in Rome 2 was never able to decide where to send it´s armies, to the effect that in DeI Carthage had most of its armies in between Sicily and Iberia...

    Edit: sorry, just looked at the preview pics
    Last edited by Maetharin; June 25, 2015 at 01:57 PM.
    "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse!"

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    "I concur!"

    ​Me

  12. #12
    Garensterz's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: [Preview] Carthaginian Roster

    YES!


    That's all I have to say now.



  13. #13

    Default Re: [Preview] Carthaginian Roster

    Simply wonderfull

  14. #14

    Default Re: [Preview] Carthaginian Roster

    there is something I like about Carthage.

  15. #15
    Hoplite of Ilis's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: [Preview] Carthaginian Roster

    This looks real good! Keep up the good work!

  16. #16

    Default Re: [Preview] Carthaginian Roster

    What's with the semen filter?

  17. #17

    Default Re: [Preview] Carthaginian Roster

    Um, what?

    This looks real good! Keep up the good work!
    Thank you for the kind words, as always.


  18. #18
    Ygraine's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: [Preview] Carthaginian Roster

    I'd love seeing some pikemen added to the roster!

    I know the historical sources are vague at best but both Polybius and Livy have mentioned Carthage having somekind of pikemen (perhaps shorter than sarissas though) present at Cannae at flanks. I think Divide Et Impera did a great job adding a few pike-units (alas not as many as the greek/diadochi/macedonian factions) to spice up the flavor.

  19. #19

    Default Re: [Preview] Carthaginian Roster

    References to pikemen come from Polybius, but it's a mistranslation. The word used was actually longchephoroi which refers to throwing javelins in the time period Polybius is writing. The units in question are always performing light infantry tasks, and the reference is not used at Cannae. The only piece of evidence I've seen that directly supports the use of a Macedonian pike by the Carthaginians is by the EBII team, but I have never been able to find the source myself and they never provided it that I saw. it was apparently some French academic journal or something of that nature. It was an inventory list from Carthage that apparently included sarissa. I've never seen a reference to this evidence anywhere else.

    The odds that Hannibal was using pikes are pretty slim given that he was fighting in Iberia which has some of the roughest terrain in Europe, using a mixture of native forces and Libyans, and the African infantry maneuvers quite well in all of Hannibal's battles. At Cannae they are able to swing around, we are told, to flank the Romans as they piled into the center. Not irrefutable that they weren't pikes because of that, but doubtful.

    It's also likely that Hannibal had already switched to the oval shield in Iberia, if not his predecessors. And he re-equipped his Africans in Roman arms which would seem a bit odd to me if they had a Macedonian fighting style. By the Third Punic War, the inventories provided of what the Romans found included cuirasses, thureos shields, longche and xiphos. Livy also remarks how Carthaginians in Spain could not use their spears in close quarters during the siege of Nova Carthago. Which would seem to suggest that they did in fact fight with spears.

    The only other evidence for any Macedonian arms are very indirected. Xanthippus introduced modern Hellenistic drill, but there is nothing on him reequipping the infantry to fight differently. Conversely, Polybius makes a point to tell us when the Achaeans switched over to the Macedonian style.

    The other indirect piece of evidence - Polybius makes an odd reference to Hannibal when he is starting to discuss the Macedonian phalanx versus the Roman legion, but it's unclear whether he is talking in the general sense of a phalanx (Greek and Macedonian) or what. It's particularly odd because he is setting up the battle as the first real test between the phalanx and legion (he discounts Pyrrhus because he intermixed his forces - the Italians fought in their native style).

    So, to me, the evidence stacks one way. There is nothing that actually indicates the use of a sarissa, and most points the other way. I know other mods add in African pike units, but we will not be doing so. Their will be opportunities for submods there, I would imagine, but not for the main mod. Not unless someone can present a smoking gun piece of evidence that I'm unaware of. We also have a pretty capable historical adviser who agrees with this assessment, so I intend to stick to it.


  20. #20
    Ygraine's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: [Preview] Carthaginian Roster

    I see. How about mercs? I was mainly thinking about the 4000 troops that Philip V sent that were present at Zama fighting with pikes for the Carthaginians.

    After a lot of research online it seems that the only reason Carthaginians didn't use pikes widely (one can assume with a probability) was due to it being impractical against most of their enemies/in the landscape they fought in at that current time (iberian hilly terrain, african vast plains fighting against skirmishers/cavalry or how it seems Romans have adapted to deal with enemy pikemen formations) - but this being a game and you being able to fight any one that Carthaginians didn't fight historically makes me believe that some latitude towards "what if"-units should be given.

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