New York City buses MUST show controversial ad (anti-Muslim) on grounds of free speech

[Sphere]

It's easy to say this is just a city bus, can't the city exclude ads it doesn't like? But hypothetically the city could also sell "advertising space" on the state capital building, and then only deem as appropriate "ads" which feature bible quotes, crucifixes, statues of Mary etc. (or anti-union slogans, pro-Climate Change, Bong Hits for Jesus etc.)

Now you're in a First Amendment pickle. If the government really is free to decide which ads are appropriate or inappropriate completely independent from the First Amendment, you can have the effective result which violates basic constitutional principles by this filtering of privately paid for advertising.

edit: Obscenity isn't protected by the First Amendment.

[Border Patrol]

Similar posters were plastered on the NYC subway at the time, again against their wishes, but there again the right for racists to mouth off trumps the rights of property owners to refuse these racist organisations business. Shame people have to mop up after them, in this case some hindhu's blood.



That's a thought. If one was a mega-rich racist millionaire, could one force Kelloggs to to Klan up Tony the Tiger and promote racist material?

You're not getting this whole 'owned by the government' thing, are you? And sorry, but religion isn't a race. You can't be racist against Muslims.

[sumskilz]

Similar posters were plastered on the NYC subway at the time, again against their wishes, but there again the right for racists to mouth off trumps the rights of property owners to refuse these racist organisations business. Shame people have to mop up after them, in this case some hindhu's blood.

That woman obviously has issues beyond what posters she has seen. She claims she has been beating up Hindus and Muslims for years.

I also don't get why this is a race issue. Do you think Robert Spencer is trying to get himself pushed in front of a subway train?

[Denny Crane!]

You're not getting this whole 'owned by the government' thing, are you? And sorry, but religion isn't a race. You can't be racist against Muslims.

Indonesian people aren't Arabs? That is so racist of you dude.

[mongrel]

You're not getting this whole 'owned by the government' thing, are you? And sorry, but religion isn't a race. You can't be racist against Muslims.

I have not commented on the rights or wrongs of the so-called right to force entities to accept racist posters, although it would increase sales of Ms Marvel stickers for sure.

As the only conceivable enemies of Israel are of Arab or Persian origin these posters certainly are racist, although some nutjobs who believe such nonsense are happy enough to harm any random brown person to get their jollies.

Do you think Robert Spencer is trying to get himself pushed in front of a subway train?

As far as he is concerned, it is all about making money , selling fairy tales to racists.

[Gaidin]

As the only conceivable enemies of Israel are of Arab or Persian origin these posters certainly are racist,

Should say Arab of X region instead of Muslim. Instead of, you know, a religion. Not that it would you know, make the ad any less whack.

[alhoon]

It's easy to say this is just a city bus, can't the city exclude ads it doesn't like? But hypothetically the city could also sell "advertising space" on the state capital building, and then only deem as appropriate "ads" which feature bible quotes, crucifixes, statues of Mary etc. (or anti-union slogans, pro-Climate Change, Bong Hits for Jesus etc.)

Now you're in a First Amendment pickle. If the government really is free to decide which ads are appropriate or inappropriate completely independent from the First Amendment, you can have the effective result which violates basic constitutional principles by this filtering of privately paid for advertising.

edit: Obscenity isn't protected by the First Amendment.

You're losing me here...
Are you saying that "if the Government sets up standards for what can go in government ad-space and what not, who is to make sure that the government may not abuse that power and ban everything they don't like" or something ?

If you do the answer is this: The elections.
X government goes too far by your standards? Vote for the other guys that promise to backtrack.

Also I find it strange that the same country that had "free speech zones" where you could protest a war and you couldn't outside has a problem with the government being able to say "no, that goes too far" for government space ads without imposing these opinions on private ad space

For example, your employer can tell you that you can't say something or you will be fired, and this does not violate your freedom of speech in any way.

Wait, what? Are you serious or joking?

[athanaric]

Ms Marvel is a fairly popular character from the Marvel universe.

Yeah? And which values does she stand for?

As far as one can ascertain comic fans belong to many religions or none and are as American as one can be, culturally speaking. Being decent people I don't think they take to racism or general bigotry that well .

I don't think that comicbook fans are anymore decent, or aware of bigotry, than the general American population. If anything, they're more prone to erroneous judgement and easier to manipulate because of their young age and lack of experience.

Lets face it , your average geek or nerd is far more sensible than your average sectarian islamophobic (insert suitable noun here).

Well first of all, not every geek or nerd is a comicbook fan.
Secondly, your "sectarian islamophobic" quip is as meaningless as it is belligerent. We have been over this many times. Islam is not a skin colour or a race, nor any other genetically induced condition. Disliking it is not a crime, and plenty of people - of all races and colours - do criticize or dislike it, for various reasons. Claiming that anti-Islamic ads or criticism of Islam were "racist" is a lie. So, either you're lying, or you don't know what the word racism means.

As the only conceivable enemies of Israel are of Arab or Persian origin these posters certainly are racist, although some nutjobs who believe such nonsense are happy enough to harm any random brown person to get their jollies.

Israel has plenty of enemies from all over the world, including many white or black people. Chechens are amongst the most dangerous and vitriolic Israel haters, and most of them are white. Most of these enemies of Israel hate it because it exists.
Also, some "Arabs" and some Persians are white, as well. In a similar vein, many critics of Islam, like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, aren't.

You're desperately trying to make this about "prejudice against brown people" when it's been demonstrated again and again that it's not. Why keep repeating the falsehood?

As far as he is concerned, it is all about making money , selling fairy tales to racists.

Yeah right. Because "making money" is more important than living a normal life, without being in constant fear of some nutjob trying to kill you for your opinion.

[mongrel]

Yeah? And which values does she stand for?

Precisely the same as Carol Danvers, aka Captain Marvel, in other words fighting for justice , truth, American way etc. Why do you ask? I beleive you can purchase Marvel Comic just about anywhere.

I don't think that comicbook fans are anymore decent, or aware of bigotry, than the general American population. If anything, they're more prone to erroneous judgement and easier to manipulate because of their young age and lack of experience.

So there are no comic book fans above a certain age? Clearly your assertion cannot be based on fact, google a convention and see the real age profile.

Well first of all, not every geek or nerd is a comicbook fan.
Secondly, your "sectarian islamophobic" quip is as meaningless as it is belligerent. We have been over this many times. Islam is not a skin colour or a race, nor any other genetically induced condition. Disliking it is not a crime, and plenty of people - of all races and colours - do criticize or dislike it, for various reasons. Claiming that anti-Islamic ads or criticism of Islam were "racist" is a lie. So, either you're lying, or you don't know what the word racism means.

Arabs and Persians are . One can readily be racist against either whether they are muslim christian or neither. I think pushing brown people under trains goes beyond dislike, don't you?

Israel has plenty of enemies from all over the world, including many white or black people. Chechens are amongst the most dangerous and vitriolic Israel haters, and most of them are white. Most of these enemies of Israel hate it because it exists.
Also, some "Arabs" and some Persians are white, as well. In a similar vein, many critics of Islam, like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, aren't..

.

The Chechen Republic is not in a state of war with Israel, never has been.Israel has not stated any intent to invade or bomb Chechnya. Iran has not attacked any country, let alone a Western one in this century or the last, so why the concern? Israel on the other hand has threatened war against it several times and is desparate to scupper ongoing mediation between Iran and the US. Saudi Arabia, one of the most odious regimes out there is a US and Israeli all. These are hard facts. You are confusing individual personal opinion with the actions of soverereign states or nations. To hell with Ayaan Hirsi Ali. She lied about her circumstances in order to con the Dutch governmen to grant her asylum. So it is not surprising that she can hang around world class bigots so as to eke out a living.

you're desperately trying to make this about "prejudice against brown people" when it's been demonstrated again and again that it's not. Why keep repeating the falsehood?].

No it is about money and influence. They rely on the racism and crass stupidity of their supporters to survive, just like their jihadi counterparts.

Yeah right. Because "making money" is more important than living a normal life, without being in constant fear of some nutjob trying to kill you for your opinion.

Absolutely, it is a multi-million dollar industry.

[sumskilz]

As far as he is concerned, it is all about making money , selling fairy tales to racists.

Whatever his motivations, he is from a Middle-Eastern family, so it seems unlikely that his intent is to promote random violence against Middle-Eastern people.

[Sphere]

If you do the answer is this: The elections.
X government goes too far by your standards? Vote for the other guys that promise to backtrack.

The problem I gave isn't all that hypothetical. There have been a string of conservative states which have taken as a private donation a monument of the ten commandments and erected it in the state capital or state supreme court.



The majority in these states are Conservative Christians and support doing this even though it clearly violates the Constitution. So elections are not really the solution to preserving the separation of church and state.

[alhoon]

Separation of church and state is actually different than free speech...

[Simon Cashmere]

As the only conceivable enemies of Israel are of Arab or Persian origin these posters certainly are racist, although some nutjobs who believe such nonsense are happy enough to harm any random brown person to get their jollies.

This is the new denunciation - much like being accused of being a communist in the 1950s - they should have a committee called 'The Committee for Unmulticulti Like Activities' where a star chamber can bring anyone with a viewpoint they don't like before them 'Are you now, or have you ever been, a racist!' No need to enter into the debate about whether you agree or disagree with the viewpoint offered- just denounce the speaker as a racist, the modern day witch or heretic, then we need not address their argument at all.

And this tactice of allowing the defence of the indefensible, was utilised to great effect by the awful Tower Hamlets Mayor Lutfor Rahman. Anyone who opposed him, was a racist, a bigot, an Islamophobe.

An election court today found that Rahman had"driven a coach and horses" through local authority law and "engaged in corrupt and illegal practices" to win elections. According to the Court, which ruled on a case brought against the Mayor for ballot-rigging, intimidation and racism in the electoral campaign of 2014, rather than being a "democratic success story", Rahman trashed the electoral process in a "ruthless and dishonest manner". To make matters worse the Mayor silenced critics using spurious accusations of Islamophobia and racism.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...-10199238.html

And further:

As for fighting elections, political arguments were replaced with well-orchestrated smear campaigns; the accusation of racism was reduced from a grave and serious charge to a tactic used to get Rahman elected. Labour mayoral candidate John Biggs was publicly branded a racist for having the temerity to accuse Rahman of the things he has today been found guilty of. Meanwhile, Rahman’s Labour rival Helal Abbas was falsely branded a "wife beater" in a mysterious newspaper which appeared on the doorsteps of every property in Tower Hamlets in 2010.

Sound familiar? Instead of having a debate - just shout down opponents and call them racists. Don't even try to win the argument with reason or logic, use the smear - and the worst smear you can make in these politically correct times is - RACIST! Now, a smear of racist on the tumblersphere, on Facebook, on youtube, on the blogs and other places of the internet can get a person fired, can prevent them from getting visas into a country, can make a business lose clients - whether or not it's true - doesn't matter - in the SJW world of justice, you get no trial, you are guilty if you are accused.

Once people jump on the ner ner racist bandwagon - you really need to stop listening, and wear the accusation like a badge.

And you want to talk about who is getting beaten up in Tower Hamlets? It isn't muslims:

Tower Hamlets’ gay community has become a particular target of extremists. Homophobic crimes in the borough have risen by 80 per cent since 2007/8, and by 21 per cent over the last year, a period when there was a slight drop in London as a whole.


Last year, a mob of 30 young Muslims stormed a local gay pub, the George and Dragon, beating and abusing patrons. Many customers of the pub told The Sunday Telegraph that they have been attacked and harassed by local Muslim youths. In 2008 a 20-year-old student, Oli Hemsley, was left permanently paralysed after an attack by a group of young Muslims outside the pub. Only one of his assailants has been caught and jailed.


Even during meetings of the local council, prominent supporters of Tower Hamlets’ controversial directly-elected mayor, Lutfur Rahman – dropped by the Labour Party for his links to Islamic fundamentalism - have persistently targeted gay councillors with homophobic abuse and intimidation from the public gallery.
The Labour leader, Josh Peck, was attacked with animal noises and cries of “Unnatural acts! Unnatural acts!” when he rose to speak. The Conservative leader, Peter Golds, was repeatedly heckled as “Mrs Golds” and a “poofte

Who are the haters and extremists again?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...a-Islamic.html

[mongrel]

Whatever his motivations, he is from a Middle-Eastern family, so it seems unlikely that his intent is to promote random violence against Middle-Eastern people.

Netanyahu never seeks to attack anywhere randomly, and that is the other mystery regardng these posters. This buses are effectively being forced to support an arguably belligerent foreign power.

This is the new denunciation - much like being accused of being a communist in the 1950s - they should have a committee called 'The Committee for Unmulticulti Like Activities' where a star chamber can bring anyone with a viewpoint they don't like before them 'Are you now, or have you ever been, a racist!' No need to enter into the debate about whether you agree or disagree with the viewpoint offered- just denounce the speaker as a racist, the modern day witch or heretic, then we need not address their argument at all.

We all know about that viewpoint, summarized in Ander's Brievik's manifesto. The ideology you back is a dangerous one, although thankfully your presentation of it is so poor as to be laughable. I trust you are still not tempted to follow his example though.

And this tactice of allowing the defence of the indefensible, was utilised to great effect by the awful Tower Hamlets Mayor Lutfor Rahman. Anyone who opposed him, was a racist, a bigot, an Islamophobe.



http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...-10199238.html

And further:

Sound familiar? Instead of having a debate - just shout down opponents and call them racists. Don't even try to win the argument with reason or logic, use the smear - and the worst smear you can make in these politically correct times is - RACIST! Now, a smear of racist on the tumblersphere, on Facebook, on youtube, on the blogs and other places of the internet can get a person fired, can prevent them from getting visas into a country, can make a business lose clients - whether or not it's true - doesn't matter - in the SJW world of justice, you get no trial, you are guilty if you are accused.

There is no debate here. Random rantings of Eurabia didn't bring him down, the English justice system and sound auditing did so. That is the proper way to deal with corruption etc.

Once people jump on the ner ner racist bandwagon - you really need to stop listening, and wear the accusation like a badge.

And you want to talk about who is getting beaten up in Tower Hamlets? It isn't muslims:

As I recall, your counter-jihadi brethren tend to be convicted for violent offences on a regular basis. The EDL were neutralised because most of their members were behind bars.

One other thing, since when was Tower Hamlets part of New York?

[Brihentin13]

We have freedom of speech in America. People can advertise whatever they wish, regardless of the politics behind their statements. You don't have to approve of the speech. The very fact that we're all here disagreeing with one another demonstrates the system at work.

[Phier]

As far as he is concerned, it is all about making money , selling fairy tales to racists.

Did an image like this come to mind as you posted that?

[mongrel]

Did an image like this come to mind as you posted that?

Robert Spencer is a Catholic who used to work in a Marxist bookshop. Go figure.

More like this actually. Thankfully the great majority of Americans aren't susceptible to such nonsense, so let them waste their money.

[Gertrudius]

No person is arguing otherwise. It does seem odd though that companies don't have any say on what is plastered on their property.

I haven't been paying close attention to this debate so I might be wrong, but my understanding is that this ruling only applies to the MTA. The issue isn't one of companies being forced to advertise something they don't want to, but of a publicly chartered and funded transportation organization making a determination about what it feels is appropriate to advertise when it is selling advertising space on it's vehicles. Thus it is a muddled issue of a public-benifit corporation having a say in what's posted on the sides of vehicles that for all intents and purposes are paid for by taxpayers, which can (and it appears has) been seen as a breach of the 1st amendment.

[sumskilz]

Robert Spencer is a Catholic

Melkite to be more specific, same as thousands of Christians in Palestine, Lebanon, and Syria.

[alhoon]

I still find it weird that hate-ads against Muslims are FORCED on buses that don't want them to protect free speech, while protest against a war with a muslim country was allowed only in "free-speech" zones.